Hersh: ISU boss has driven skating toward a ditch

[kwanatic]

The Real Ice Princesses of the USFA? haha

 

[Sandpiper]

I'd say range of 0 to 2 for a clean jump (-1 for major turn-out). There wouldn't be much incentive to save jumps if two-footing/stepping out is only worth one point less. (0 = wonky landing/lean forward, 1 = okay jump 2 = height, flow in and out, great air position).

Difficult transition and perfectly timed to the music are covered in "Transitions" and "Interpretation Timing." It's not something I'd factor into GOE.

-2 to -3 for two-foots/steps out sounds fine. I'm leaning on -3. -3 for fall plus -2 fall deduction for first fall, -3 fall deduction for second fall, increasing onward. (This speaks to how mistakes add up and create an overall impression of sloppiness. Ideally, falls--and to a lesser degree step-outs--should be factored into PCS as well).

Also, I'd be okay if URs have their base value deducted, but had their GOE scored as normal. I'm still baffled with how far Mao's Saitama TES plummeted (and the UR calls weren't even fair).

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I'd say range of 0 to 2 for a clean jump (-1 for major turn-out). There wouldn't be much incentive to save jumps if two-footing/stepping out is only worth one point less. (0 = wonky landing/lean forward, 1 = okay jump 2 = height, flow in and out, great air position).

You make some good points, but really 3 or even 4 marks aren't enough to distinguish the range of "clean" jumps IMO. For example, I think a Zhang 2A with a wonky landing should not be separated from a wonky Yuna 3Lz by 0 or even just 1 GOE point. Making a fair judging system is a lot harder than it looks, and getting that balance between simplicity and accuracy is difficult as well.

 

[Sandpiper]

I can see where you're coming from. Maybe 0 to 3 for clean jump (like right now), but with the greater fall penalty. Or -1 to 3 as you suggested, but with two-foots/step-outs getting an automatic -3 (not -2).

The problem with having a bigger GOE spread is that someone can garner huge GOEs on jumps they land, and thus cover up having huge errors in other jumps. (For instance, right now, someone with a +3 on one jump and a fall on another jump can score around the same as another person who lands both jumps cleanly but doesn't get much GOE for either.)

 

[Panpie]

Hes a guy a week before the Olympics went on some bizarre tirade saying the games should be moved. This is what passes for journalism in America these days.

I'm not a fan of Hersh by any means, but he often writes editorials, not strictly reports on events. You and I may not agree with his editorials, but to I wouldn't indict all of American journalism because Hersh has some out-there opinions.

 

[Panpie]

Great post Kwanatic. The sport will regain popularity in the US when the US can produce a skater who is capable of consistantly winning World medals.

However, I would never expect it to climb back to the levels of popularity it had in the 90s. All sports and other forms of entertainment have suffered from fragmentation and declining audiences as consumers are given more and more choice. In addition to that, prior to the 1990s skating was always a niche sport. A lot combined with Tonya & Nancy and then Michelle dominating to bring more attention to it in the US media, but even then it never had the profile of a sport like baseball or basketball, and it's futile to hope that it ever will. It's so dependent on individual stars, like Michelle or Yuna that unless a country can keep producing champions consistently, there will always be peaks & troughs in the popularity of the sport in different countries as they enjoy different levels of success.

The combination of the drama surrounding the 1994 Olympics and the emergence of Michelle Kwan not long after were unusual events not likely to be repeated anytime soon, if at all. Kwan has retired, the media landscape has changed dramatically, and the United States has few contenders for medals at international figure skating events. It's really no wonder that figure skating isn't very popular here. Skating never was hugely popular in the way that the NFL, NASCAR, MLB and NHL are popular. Honestly, MLB and the NHL are not nearly as popular as the NFL. The ISU has issues, to be sure, but the sport is not popular in the United States for a lot of reasons, not merely poor management of the ISU.

 

[Alba]

Americans are not interested in pairs or dance.

I Always wondered why is that?

No wonder figure skating is dying.

Is it really, or the truth is what kwanantic said?

Countries with skaters who are making waves and winning titles are doing just fine in terms of the popularity of the sport. The sport is "dead" in the US b/c in the last 4 years the only Americans to stand on the world podium have been Davis/White and the Shibutanis in ice dance. It's been years since anyone else has stood on the world podium. Evan Lysacek won gold in 2009; Kimmie Meissner (gold) and Sasha Cohen (bronze) in 2006; and Ina/Zimmerman (bronze) all the way back in 2002.

You can't complain about lack of attention/popularity for the sport when the skaters aren't giving you anything to cheer for. "This is America! We're the BEST!" So naturally people aren't going to tune in to watch skaters finish 5th and 8th. This country is very finicky when it comes to sports. We want winners, not losers...and unfortunately, the majority of US skaters (by definition) are a bunch of losers. Harsh, but very true.

It's an eye-catching photograph. And the expression on President Putin's face does look like he is saying to Mr. Cinquanta, "OK, explain that to me!.

Yes it is but it's a speculation, and taking into consideration the controversy about ladies in Sochi I'm not surprised that many will interpret it as provocative/negative.

I have to disagree with the idea that the U.S. needs commentators who explain the scoring in detail (even though it has practically become conventional wisdom among fans). A lot of sports fans I know (and I'm not talking about skating fans) prefer to mute the commentary when watching most sports. People watch sports for entertainment and relaxation and don't want to be educated while they watch. I'm kind of fascinated that skating seems to have a core group of fans that are just geeky enough to crave a math lesson while watching. (And I by all means don't mean geeky as an insult at all--I read history and political science for fun...so who am I to talk?). But the casual fan is highly unlikely to fit that profile or desire that. What they actually want is judging and scoring that is simple enough to make sense.

I 100% agree. :thumbsup:

During the Olympics I had many conversations with people who do not normally watch skating. Believe it or not, they thought Scott and team provided fantastic commentary

The worse USA commentator that I could think of is Scott Hamilton. Not because he says something wrong but he talks waaaaay too much for me. :disapp: I hope he has improved a bit.

 

[edenlover]

I Always wondered why is that?

However, I would never expect it to climb back to the levels of popularity it had in the 90s. All sports and other forms of entertainment have suffered from fragmentation and declining audiences as consumers are given more and more choice. In addition to that, prior to the 1990s skating was always a niche sport. A lot combined with Tonya & Nancy and then Michelle dominating to bring more attention to it in the US media, but even then it never had the profile of a sport like baseball or basketball, and it's futile to hope that it ever will. It's so dependent on individual stars, like Michelle or Yuna that unless a country can keep producing champions consistently, there will always be peaks & troughs in the popularity of the sport in different countries as they enjoy different levels of success.


Is it really, or the truth is what kwanantic said?

In the 90's figure skaters had programs that were unique. There was a difference in the feel, the elements, the styles, the music.
That's what the IJS has taken. To me, most of the programs look alike. The jumps and the combos are the same, the footwork comes at the end, the programs usually end in a spin, and I could go on.

Thank God for Meryl and Charlie and Jeremy. They had a freshness about their performances. Even with Jeremy's flaws, his are the programs I rewatch over and over again, and make me feel something. Just like Michelle. Just like Lu Chen. Just like Paul Wylie and Brian Boitano, and Kat. kat and Debbie Thomas could skate to the same music, and the performances were still unique. That's what's missing today. That's why my favorites bar has the oldie but goodies on them. I haven't watched Yuna's, Sotnika's or Hanyu's performances since the Olympics. I probably will not watch them again. Not because they weren't good, but because they had no emotional impact on me. They were just sport. I grew up with figure skating when it was both. And I hope it becomes that again. I miss the good old days.

Now, if you disagree, that's your right.












]

 

[Mathman]

I haven't watched Yuna's, Sotnika's or Hanyu's performances since the Olympics. I probably will not watch them again. Not because they weren't good, but because they had no emotional impact on me. They were just sport.

I agree with this post (Although I reserve the right to re-watch Yuna's Les Miz from 2013 worlds. )

I believe that the folks who wanted to make figure skating more like other sports have won, and the people (like me) who would rather celebrate what makes figure skating different from other sports have lost.

Think about it. There are 1000 sports. Why would someone want to watch or to participate in figure skating rather than in one of the other 999? Because of jumping? No, there is plenty of that in the 999. Because it takes a lot of skill to do it? Ditto the 999. What is it then about the sport of figure skating that, in the past, made our hearts sing?

 

[Panpie]

The worse USA commentator that I could think of is Scott Hamilton. Not because he says something wrong but he talks waaaaay too much for me. :disapp: I hope he has improved a bit.

Scott Hamilton's screeching and groaning get on my nerves. I am not particularly a fan of Johnny and Tara either--at least, not together. They're okay when one or the other does commentary with Terry Gannon, but not when both of them are in booth with him. During the Olympics, they may have gotten word that they had a following and decided to play up their cuteness. I found that to be a turn off. I realize most don't agree, but that's how I feel about them.

 

[Alba]

I agree with this post (Although I reserve the right to re-watch Yuna's Les Miz from 2013 worlds. )

I like Les Mis more than Adios.

Think about it. There are 1000 sports. Why would someone want to watch or to participate in figure skating rather than in one of the other 999? Because of jumping? No, there is plenty of that in the 999. Because it takes a lot of skill to do it? Ditto the 999. What is it then about the sport of figure skating that, in the past, made our hearts sing?

I think it's a combination of all factor. I don't watch FS just for the artistry, in fact I don't like show and exhibitions for example.
If it was for the artistry alone I would stick with ballet only.

 

[Mathman]

If it was for the artistry alone I would stick with ballet only.

That's a good point, too.

I guess I don't know what I think.

 

[Alba]

In the 90's figure skaters had programs that were unique. There was a difference in the feel, the elements, the styles, the music.
That's what the IJS has taken. To me, most of the programs look alike. The jumps and the combos are the same, the footwork comes at the end, the programs usually end in a spin, and I could go on.

To a certain extent I agree with you, especially in dance with all these obligatory elements has restricted the creativity a lot.
However, although I'm a "nostalgic" myself I do think that we had a lot fo awful programs back than as well, just as we have today. The same goes for good/great skaters and programs today.

Thank God for Meryl and Charlie and Jeremy. They had a freshness about their performances. Even with Jeremy's flaws, his are the programs I rewatch over and over again, and make me feel something. Just like Michelle. Just like Lu Chen. Just like Paul Wylie and Brian Boitano, and Kat. kat and Debbie Thomas could skate to the same music, and the performances were still unique. That's what's missing today. That's why my favorites bar has the oldie but goodies on them. I haven't watched Yuna's, Sotnika's or Hanyu's performances since the Olympics. I probably will not watch them again. Not because they weren't good, but because they had no emotional impact on me. They were just sport. I grew up with figure skating when it was both. And I hope it becomes that again. I miss the good old days.
Now, if you disagree, that's your right

.

It's not that I disagree with you, but I think each one of us has their own taste and sometimes we tend to be bleak and see that as a general feeling when we don't like something. I don't know if I'm making any sense with my english here.

 

[Alba]

That's a good point, too.

I guess I don't know what I think.

Really though. I do belive that what makes this sport so unique is the combination of both. Sport (high level tech) and artistry.

 

[edenlover]

Really though. I do belive that what makes this sport so unique is the combination of both. Sport (high level tech) and artistry.

And on that point we really do agree.

 

[Icey]

The present public expects more than seeing a skater skate the same program to the same music in the same costume for a whole year. Been there, seen that. Boring for the public at large.

 

[Alba]

Scott Hamilton's screeching and groaning get on my nerves. I am not particularly a fan of Johnny and Tara either--at least, not together. They're okay when one or the other does commentary with Terry Gannon, but not when both of them are in booth with him. During the Olympics, they may have gotten word that they had a following and decided to play up their cuteness. I found that to be a turn off. I realize most don't agree, but that's how I feel about them.

I think Johny and Tara were not bad. They didn't talk to much during the performance, but they were completely clueless in Ice Dance.
Especially Tara.

And on that point we really do agree.

We do agree on the essence of this sport, so that's pretty good thing. :agree:

However, talking about programs that you were referring before. I don't know if it's the new system that maybe have pushed the skaters too much on the tech, or coaches and choreographers should do better and more in terms of creativity.
I don't know...:think:

 

[skatedreamer]

Really though. I do belive that what makes this sport so unique is the combination of both. Sport (high level tech) and artistry.

:agree: Indeed! Although that's also the thing that frustrates people when they don't understand or agree with the judging.

 

[Alba]

:agree: Indeed! Although that's also the thing that frustrates people when they don't understand or agree with the judging.

Not all of them.
I think that's part of the "game" also. I've given up since the early 90's (1991 I think?) at being mad with the judges.
I really do feel better and fully enjoy the skating since I did that. That's just me though.

 

[skatedreamer]

Not all of them.
I think that's part of the "game" also. I've given up since the early 90's (1991 I think?) at being mad with the judges.
I really do feel better and fully enjoy the skating since I did that. That's just me though.

Wise woman!