How Important is the Caller?

[Rgirl]

Do you believe the Technical Assistant (the Caller) is the most important official in the competition? I do.

Don't mean to "steal" Joe's signature to start a thread, but I think this is such a great topic I just couldn't wait to suggest it to Joe via PM. Thank you, Joesitz.

ITA that the Technical Assistant, ie, the Caller, is the most important official in the NJS. Why? Because the Caller can take away or give high points just by, for example, calling a triple a double or be NOT calling a two-foot or under-rotated triple a triple.

The caller can also chip away at a skater's score or add chips to it by calling the non-jump elements higher than they deserve, eg, a 4 when it should be a 3, or vice versa.

IMO, if you want to find the person who has the most and simplest opportunities for cheating, it's the caller. Of course if the Caller's numbers are WAY out of whack, I would hope the skater's coach and federation would make a stink to high heaven. But "iffy" calls, especially depending on where the cameras are for rechecking both jump and non-jump elements in slow-motion, I would think would go in favor of the Caller.

Also, perhaps GKelly, Hockeyfan, Doggygirl, or Mathman would be kind enough to post the most recent descriptions of the roles of the Technical Specialists. For example, until recently as posted in one of the GPS forums either GKelly or Hockeyfan, I didn't know the Tech Specs had been increased from two to three.

Although I think this as been somewhat discussed in one of the GPS folders (remember, my mind has been mush lately, I thought it would make a goud thread for the Edge. Reminder: NO SPOILERS!

Thanks again Joe for the super siggy.;clap:

Comments? Pedagogy?

Rgirl

 

[sk8tngcanuck]

The Caller

RG and my fellow GSsers,

I couldn't agree more with these statemements. A skater's potential program points fall to the discretion of two or three individuals. Thank goodness they are not anonymous! Those callers have their reputations on the line, and I would hope that they take their jobs seriously.

It is my understanding (and I know I have read the lists of the Tech Specialists from Canadian sectionals) that the vast majority of these skaters are retired (many recently) sr. level skaters. I think that bodes well for the sport in that they have perhaps been 'victims' of the old system, and I believe that they will act with the utmost of diligence to ensure the integrity of the judging. They have seen the hits and criticisms towards their much loved sport over the past few years, and I am hoping that they are taking their new jobs very seriously in the hopes of repairing the negative images that skating has had to deal with.

In the past we had judges who knew little about the technical aspects of skating. It wasn't necessary to have a skating background to become a judge, so I think it is a great stepping stone to put the onus for the technical aspects of skating onto someone who knows the sport well.

We have all seen some questionable PCS this season, and while that is certainly a concern, and perhaps an area where judging corruption can happen, at least we are headed in the right direction, and for the most part this season at least, we have seen "proper" results. We don't have the "wuz robbed" threads as a regularity on our forums the way we have in the past, which is certainly a step in the right direction!

I give big kudos to these TS who have stepped up in the hopes of eliminating the corruption and collusion that has existed in our sport for far too long.

Canuck

 

[nymkfan51]

HUGE I would say!

The scary part of this is that a little chipping away here and there would be hard to discern, but could have massive effect on an outcome. Do they get to view a replay in slo-mo before they issue a decision if they aren't sure?

 

[Antilles]

I agree the caller has the most crucial job. I saw one example watching CBC's coverage of Trophee Eric Bompard yesterday. Buttle's failed quad was called as a quad, even though the replay clearly shows he was no where near all the way around on his fourth rotation. Paul Martini seemed stunned by the call. One or two wrong calls could significantly affect the outcome of a competition. I'm not sure I'd want the pressure of being a caller.

 

[show 42]

......And so, do we have 2002 all over again? 42

 

[nymkfan51]

......And so, do we have 2002 all over again? 42

IMO? We have a disaster just waiting to happen.

 

[flowjo35]

Does anyone over see the caller? This position is so important and critical to a competition that I would hope so.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Does anyone over see the caller? This position is so important and critical to a competition that I would hope so.

I think his Assistant(s) can disagree and check with him, but how soon after he has made the call and the judges have scored on his call is moot. I don't think we will ever hear anything about a disagreement between the team of callers. I would consider the Technical Assistant as omnipotent.

What prompted me to make posters aware of the importance of the Caller is the many posters who continually post views like 'underrotated jumps'; 'two foot landings', etc. I should think the Caller would catch this. If the Caller is not catching these errors, and the poster's views may be correct - what's going on here?

Show - No 2002 this Olys. The leading players are way above the closest second place. However, if S&Z return to compete, well........

Joe

 

[nymkfan51]

God, how wonderful it would be, if by some miracle, S&Z could come back and compete at a high level ... it would give me at least one thing to enjoy in this Olympics!

ETA ... well, the 2nd thing to enjoy. Even though she won't win Olympic gold, I will love watching whatever Michelle does.

 

[flowjo35]

God, how wonderful it would be, if by some miracle, S&Z could come back and compete at a high level ... it would give me at least one thing to enjoy in this Olympics!

ETA ... well, the 2nd thing to enjoy. Even though she won't win Olympic gold, I will love watching whatever Michelle does.

nymkfan, I could not agree more, S&Z had me in tears with their worlds FS in 2003. Their connection with the audience was great. And your second point regarding Michelle, if she had the skate she always wanted at the olympics no matter where that landed her I would be happy. But if Michelle skates like that she could end up with that gold. Get healthy Michelle.

 

[Doggygirl]

Duties of the Technical Specialist, Asst. Tech Spec, and Controller

From the link below, open the document "Summary of Officials" for a description of what the roles and responsibilities are for the technical panel.

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,4844-152055-169271-nav-list,00.html

I think there might be more regarding the use of instant replays in the season 2005/2006 update document where some of the other changes for COP rules since last season are outlined. (but I might be having a senior moment)

Just as a point of clarification to a few poster comments above, it is NOT the job of the technical specialist to do anything about 2 foot landings. That is the job of the judging panel to penalize that through GOE. The technical folks identify the jump and the number of rotations - the judges determine the quality.

I would like to echo the thoughts put forward by sk8ingcanuck. While on the surface it seems that much power is in the hands of a few, this particular power is the LEAST subjective aspect of judging. Have there been very close calls about whether a jump was slightly more or less the 1/4 turn under-roted? Sure, and close calls along those lines will always be there. But each element is evaluated, and the levels for that element are recorded.

I would like to think that specialists who make obvious mistakes on a regular basis don't have a bright future in this role. To me, this is MUCH tighter than the old system where who can really say if a program was technically worthy of a 5.7 v. a 5.8?

In terms of what's possible for cheating, I don't know. But in terms of the competitions so far this season, I've got no quibbles with how these folks have done their jobs thus far.

DG

 

[Mathman]

Thank you for the link, Doggygirl. Check it out, everybody -- it's an easy and informative read.

The general ISU rules, which this document amplifies, is pretty brief:

"A Technical Specialist and an Assistant Technical Specialist from the published ISU list of Technical Specialists, will be appointed and used to determine whether an element and which element has or has nor been performed. A Technical Controller from the published list of Technical Controllers will be appointed in each event to supervise the work of the Technical Specialists in this event."

I would be curious to know how often, in practice, the Technical Controller intervenes in the process, and what exactly happens then.

(BTW, it is the Technical Specialist who is the "caller," not the Technical Assistant.)

Here are the current lists of Technical Specialists and Technical Controllers (note the two designations have different qualifications):

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-171076-188294-98554-0-file,00.pdf

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-171075-188293-98555-0-file,00.pdf

To me, the most significant part of this aspect of the New Judging System is that it diminishes the role of the judges, who are appointed by the member federations, and elevates the importance of these three officials who are appointed directly by the ISU.

In the wake of the Salt Lake City pairs controversy, Mr. Cinquanta steadfastly maintained that the biggest problem was that the judges were beholden to the national federations that nominated them. Thus Madam Le Gaugne had no choice but to succumb to pressure from her Federation president, because if she hadn’t, the federation might have taken her off the list.

Giving the judges anonymity was supposed to be a response to this issue. But while everyone was fussing and fuming about that, Speedy did an end run and came up with the Technical Specialist idea. If indeed the 3-person Tech crew is now more important than the judges, this means that Speedy and the ISU have scored big over the individual member federations.

So the question becomes -- do we want more centralized power in the sport, or do we want to continue the federal model?

Mathman

 

[hockeyfan228]

It's a two-of-three vote among the ISU technical "calling" staff, if there's disagreement. However, it isn't clear if there's pressure to just go along. Although just going along backfired on their equivalents in gymnastics in the Men's all-around.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Wow, thanks Rgirl. My simple signature piece brought in a rash of good comments.

The rules should be simple. It's quite obvious what the duties are without even reading them. Question is are they following the rules? That's not so simple.

Good Point Mathman: would be curious to know how often, in practice, the Technical Controller intervenes in the process, and what exactly happens then.
(BTW - Do not the Tech Spec work together with the Tech Asst. So I think there could be disagreements.)

Personally, I don't think the Federations are involved in 'fixing' the outcomes of a competition as what happened in SLC. That was a one time thing; it was caught; and no one will dare do that again. It'll kill figure skating.

What Cinquanta is doing, is doing his best to obfuscate the fans from knowing what is going on. Cultural bias runs amok in all international judging sports. He doesn't want the IOC to pester him about this. So he keeps the names and nationalities of the judges secret. I don't believe it is because of Federation hanky panking. However, there could be screams if bloc cultural bias is present. Note I said cultural - not political or criminal.

MM again: So the question becomes -- do we want more centralized power in the sport, or do we want to continue the federal model?

I just want to see Regional Judging instituted which would kill most if not all cultural bias.

Joe

 

[Doggygirl]

And I SURE hope the powers that be around the world of FS took note.

DG

 

[southwest wind]

Whose who in the callers

I scanned thorugh the list of callers from each country and recognized many names. From Ukraine, there was Viktor Petrenko (who I had heard of :agree: ) and Vladimir Petrenko (who I had not heard of). Who is Vlad and are they related?

 

[Mathman]

I scanned thorugh the list of callers from each country and recognized many names. From Ukraine, there was Viktor Petrenko (who I had heard of :agree: ) and Vladimir Petrenko (who I had not heard of). Who is Vlad and are they related?

I think Vladimir is Victor's younger brother. Vladimir won the world junior championship in 1986. He is a coach now.

MM

 

[show 42]

God, how wonderful it would be, if by some miracle, S&Z could come back and compete at a high level ... it would give me at least one thing to enjoy in this Olympics!

ETA ... well, the 2nd thing to enjoy. Even though she won't win Olympic gold, I will love watching whatever Michelle does.

Totally agree on both points, Nym........42

 

[Frau Muller]

Have the 2006 Olympics Callers been named? Callers & Judges are supposed to be named well before events occur. Once we know the names & countries of the callers and judges, we may have some interesting clues as to how the winds will blow in Turin.

 

[Mathman]

As far as I can tell, the names of the referee, technical controller, technical special ("caller") and assistant technical specialist have not been announced yet.

The judges draw by nationality was done last month. Here are the results (scroll down to page 3):

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-171357-188575-98972-0-file,00.pdf

The national federations of the countries selected will submit the names of the judges to the ISU. I don't think this selection has been annouced yet.

MM