Ice Dance Prospects | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Ice Dance Prospects

Ice Dance lineup:

Davis and White — 30 + 321.89
Pechalat and Bourzat — 30 + 321.31
Crone and Poirier — 28 + 303.50
Bobrova and Soloviev — 28 + 299.72
Weaver and Poje — 22 + (2nd and 4th + 283.91)
Hoffmann and Zavozin — 22 (2nd and 4th + 272.91)

Alternates
Shibuanti and Shibuanti — 22 (3rd and 3rd + 281.74)
Chock and Zuerlein – 22 (3rd and 3rd + 277.53)
Rizanova and Tkachenko — 20 (5th and 2nd beats Ilinykh and Katsalapov's 3rd and 4th place finishes)
 
Mrs. P said:
Ice Dance lineup:

Davis and White — 30 + 321.89
Pechalat and Bourzat — 30 + 321.31
Crone and Poirier — 28 + 303.50
Bobrova and Soloviev — 28 + 299.72
Weaver and Poje — 22 + (2nd and 4th + 283.91)
Hoffmann and Zavozin — 22 (2nd and 4th + 272.91)

Alternates
Shibuanti and Shibuanti — 22 (3rd and 3rd + 281.74)
Chock and Zuerlein – 22 (3rd and 3rd + 277.53)
Rizanova and Tkachenko — 20 (5th and 2nd beats Ilinykh and Katsalapov's 3rd and 4th place finishes)
Click to expand...


SO happy for Weaver and Poje:biggrin::biggrin: I'll bet very few expected this from them at the beginnig of the season. After all of work they've put in over the past few seasons, they can finally prove their worth. Although I have no doubt that the judges will keep them in 6th place, at least they made it. I also love that Canada has two dance teams in the GPF even without Virue and Moir, and that if V/M had competed, would have had three. These results, along with Paul/Islam's really amazing debut at SC and Ralph/Hill's decent showings, proves just how good the dance program in Canada is. They must be the best set of dance teams in the world right now.
 
Agree. Really happy for Weaver/Poje, as well as Crone/Poirier. I hope this gives Weaver/Poje some real confidence, which, along with continued good training, will result in greater consistency. Just maybe Canada will keep 3 spots next year at Worlds, even if Virtue/Moir take the rest of the season to recover (which I sort of hope they do). And while I say this, I do think they are benefiting from the fact some really good teams are not up to speed this season. I'm thinking of Virtue/Moir, Faella/Scali, Kerrs and maybe even Samuelson/Bates. Crone/Poirier would probably have made the cut if everyone were healthy and competing, but that is not guaranteed, and Weaver/Poje would not have qualified.

I also agree that Canada has some amazing depth in ice dance. Paul/Islam just need time and refinement, and hopefully a chance to develop their own unique style. I think if they continue down the road of channeling Virtue/Moir, it could really back-fire on them. I don't think Ralph/Hill have had decent showings. Their marks are very close to some of the top juniors in Canada. They have not made a huge amount of improvement over the last couple of years, and their program choices, along with costume fiascos, have not done them any favours. I really think they could drop out of the top 5, even with Virtue/Moir taking the season off, since there are some hard working and developing teams behind them. And next year there will be some good juniors that will likely make the leap to senior. Unless things really change for Ralph/Hill, I just don't see them in the mix anytime soon. As great as the Scarboro rink is, perhaps they need a change of venue and coaching. And that's another wonderful thing about ice dance in Canada: there are other great rinks - Quebec, Barrie, Waterloo, Vancouver all come to mind.
 
It never hurts to get a second opinion-if they didn't want to go to another rink, they could go to someone else for things they perceive themselves to be lacking in.

V&M and D&W did this; very successfully I might add. They went to Cirque du Soleil for their lifts; they went to dance experts for the character of Bollywood and ballroom tango and to the inventor of the Tango Romantica for the definitive word on that; they went to mimes and acting classes --and that's just the ones I know about. I don't see why the Scarboro teams couldn't go outside for specific things.

In the case of posture and legline, maybe a summer spent in Ashton with Linichuk or in Michigan with Netchaeva?

Outside choreographers with different costume makers, too, would be a help. Certainly C&P went to an outside choreographer, so you can do that at Scarboro rink.

Actually, I like Ralph & Hill a lot more than C&P; just my personal taste, and it's why the programs they've been given, the costumes they wear, and the lack of improvement in some of their flaws annoys me very much.
 
I'm so happy Weaver and Poje made it!! I kinda feel sorry for them being SLIGHTLY shafted by Crone and Poirier a lot, but I guess that's competition. I think they will end up in 5th or 6th place, but it's still good (they could beat Hoffman and Zavozin?)

Re: Ralph and Hill, I agree with a post I saw on here awhile ago that they're doing too many African-themed programs (last year's FD and this year's is African-influenced). They do need to branch out. I could see them still ahead of Islam & Paul at Nationals though, as Islam & Paul scored low at Rostelecom before withdrawing.
 
blue_idealist said:
Re: Ralph and Hill, I agree with a post I saw on here awhile ago that they're doing too many African-themed programs (last year's FD and this year's is African-influenced). They do need to branch out. I could see them still ahead of Islam & Paul at Nationals though, as Islam & Paul scored low at Rostelecom before withdrawing.
Click to expand...

They were African themed at Novice and Junior as well, I believe. I remember seeing their FD at Novice and being totally impressed and blown away. And then being slightly disappointed they simply modified it for Junior. But I guess if you keep winning..... Now the novelty is completely worn off, and it is definitely time to find some new material. It's about stretching themselves and growing in the experience. It's the difference between developing skills and artistry, vs finding the quickest way to "win". I see this approach as being a little like Royal Conservatory exams in Canada. It is possible to study only the pieces from the list the student and teacher choose to test, and nothing else on the lists, take the exams, and pass the level. I've seen kids do this - Grade 1, 2, 3, all the way up to about Grade 7 or 8. At that point, these poor kids hit a wall. They can play notes, but they are not real musicians. And then they get frustrated and disillusioned, and drop out when both the material is complex and the expectations are higher. If they took the time to really dig into each level, grow their skills, and expand their artistic horizons, they are ready to tackle the music at the top levels. And this is a little bit of what I see with Ralph/Hill. They've taken the path of least resistance to the Senior ranks, and now they have to grow and change. And up to now, I haven't seen it.

Not sure about their ability to stay ahead of Paul/Islam. They have some pretty solid skills, and are the new "it" team in Canada. I wouldn't use Russia GP as the gauge for ability. They were injured. If they are healthy, I expect them to post some good scores.
 
:mad: Lost my post .I hate when that happens !

Ah, well here's the gist : I bet W/P have been working like fiends the last few weeks , knowing there was a chance they'd make the GPF. They'll be doing their darndest to avoid the costly deductions, this time. So I'd say all bets are off for at least the last 3 spots, depending on all the usual variables ( judging panel , who's healthy , nerves , etc.etc.)
I'm not at all confident of C/P's ability to place above B/S. Far from a done deal in my book . Whether or not you like the choice of B/S's "Delilah", the program, itself, has a more waltz-like feel than C/P's "Fallin". In their FD, they have some very nice and difficult bits of choreography , and even if the concept is no departure from the norm , I'm not sure that's a bad thing for them, this year. While I really like Dean's choreo. for C/P, I doubt it's going to become one of his iconic pieces. It is designed to provide cover for their lack of expression. It's a good abstract program with some nice lines and unusual touches. No matter how many reactionary, after-the-fact explanations and searches for symbolism people want to indulge in , I'm pretty sure that's how the judges will view it. I don't think they'll ignore the "story lines must be clear and easily understandable " guideline this soon after creating it.

I so agree with the points made by doris and NorthernDancers regarding the Canadian scene. I expect P/I to pass R/H at Nationals, provided her rib is healed. They had some pretty good tech. scores at SC. Leaving aside the usual arguments about home country scores, and a small but costly misstep in their SD, they managed to hold their own and looked like they belonged with the more experienced couples in the field. Their SD has sophisticated music and costumes and R/H's SD will look very junior-ish by comparison. P/I have nice lines, posture, pointed toes , and a mature aplomb that R/H have yet to acquire.

If R/H stay put, I really hope they seek some of that outside help that's been suggested.
Maybe some workshops where they work alongside peers who aren't from their rink might be good. Judging by some of the reactions displayed in the KnC, they may not have a very objective view of where they stand.

They have a nice warm presence on the ice, and often give a feeling of actually dancing more so than C/P, though C/P are technically superior.
They've been the #2 team at their rink for a few years now, but unlike the situation with V/M and D/W , they aren't directly competitive with C/P, technically ,so they don't really push each other ( that I can see ). At the same time , their rink has gained ( IMO) a somewhat exaggerated reputation for excellence.. benefiting from having 2 couples who have been together a long time, and have placed well by virtue of the technical skills that come from lengthy partnerships ,and in spite of the areas of development that have largely been ignored.

So I see this team as being the most vulnerable to disappointment, come Canadians.
 
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1. Wow, harsh on C/P. I don't think my response to it is a "reactionary, after-the-fact explanation" at all. My response to their program is hugely visceral, which is what surprises me so much, because that kind of "wham" emotional impact is something they've never had for me. I think it'll be a challenge to beat B/S at the GPF, but not one to shirk from, but one to attack. Given that their season best totals are virtually tied, I don't think anyone believes they're a sure thing (in fact, most in the prediction thread are going for B/S at the moment).

2. colleen, I thought the same thing about W/P. Last season. They missed out on the Olympics by 0.3 points! I thought they'd be working like mad over the summer to prevent those errors that they made at Cup of China (which dropped them to eighth at one point), at Skate Canada (where they lost to B/S in the FD though snagged a bronze, barely) and the stumbles at Nationals. But they keep doing it. It's a mental thing, those lapses in concentration that prove costly.
 
:biggrin: Gee ,Pogue, I wasn't referring to your reaction to C/P's program. I was thinking of the official explanation being given out through Tracy Wilson about how it tells the story of Eleanor Rigby and although she dies at the end, it's such a release from her suffering, it's still uplifting... Then, I was reading a bit on the Crone & Poirier thread at SFU, and there are people there stretching to make every movement symbolic of various stages of ER's life ,from cradle to grave ( literally). This is the kind of slef-indulgent, apologist ..well, spin..that I find very hard to stomach. I have no issue with people who were moved by C/P's skating , although I wasn't particularly. As I say, I like the program, it's filled with some lovely difficult stuff. I love the lines in some of the positions they take. It's good, but not one of the best things he's ever done, as some would like to convince us. I don't feel as powerfully affected by it as I've felt by Dean programs that he's skated himself with Torville , or that he's choreographed for skaters who can exude an inner intensity, like the Duschenays, but that's rare. I didn't feel it in the program he did for B/K, either. Maybe it will be there by the end of the season, but I tend to think the program is designed to cover the fact that they don't emote that well.

That doesn't mean that I don't think they're capable of taking bronze in China, but its far from a given because B/S are very good, and they can deliver the kind of projection their program calls for. Which kind of program will the judges prefer in this year of getting back to dancing and no convoluted stories ?

( Dog walking..further explanation coming. )
 
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:) I almost just edited my way back in, but I type so slowly, I thought it might be a bad idea.

About W/P , Pogue , I know , I know...But look, you can see the improvement in them. Many thought they should not have been the ones to miss the Olympics , last year. ( I don't feel qualified to say that definitively, but I know it was close ). And heaven knows ,they were not alone in having mishaps this year, and neither of their GP's gave them a chance at any home country boost in their marks ( if there was to be any )...Plus, I thought I sensed a new determination in Kaitlyn's post skate interview at SA..it didn't have that same aura of having seen the handwriting on the wall , and just mouthing the usual cliches, that I seem to remember from the last year or two. So I hope to see them come out gangbusters and give the judges something to think about.

Whatever the outcome of the GPF, I hope it's well judged . Likewise for Nationals.:unsure:
 
Looking forward to it.

a) The "uplift" part is ridiculous, but so less so than the new ice dance requirements. I also think you're misinterpreting the rules, or at least the impact they'll have. If they wanted to, they could've placed C/P behind the Shibs at Skate America (hometown bonus + C/P's mistake).

b) "Not one of the best things Dean has done".... well, when you have a resume like his..... - he's choreographed for at least three world champions (himself w/ Torvill, Duchesnays, A/P). I don't mind people exploring the depth of the dance because instinctively I feel a reading on those lines (similar to how Blades read into Amodio's LP. I'm not sure I'd go that far, but a couple of moments inside had me thinking a reading along those lines was plausible).

c) They didn't score that much worse at SA than at SC. You're right, W/P have had mishaps, that isn't the the thing. The mishaps of the other teams don't cause them to be dropped the way they do. In other words, my thing reading your posts is that I think you emphasize a little too much of the negative with C/P and a little too much the positive with W/P. JMO.
 
Weaver/Poge killed it with that distasteful program for me, so I will be looking at Bobrova/Soloviev who are not your typical Russian stylists but very good musical skaters. Also Chock and Zuerlein who should not have done Piaf. They should have done Garland.
 
;) Oh, I knew it...If I seem like I'm a bit anti C/P and a bit pro W/P , I admit I always knew
I could be taken that way. It was a calculated risk. I don't mean to say C/P are worthless, undeserving, or anything remotely like that..I just don't like the build-up that's been gong on ( probably PR aimed toward Nationals , I think ..which, if true, is not a thing I like to see ). I like them , but that doesn't mean I don't see their flaws, and there's no use pretending they don't exist. I like their program.There are many shapes ,positions, movements in the choreography that evoke alienation, loneliness, etc. very well, without requiring any particular ability to express emotion on the skaters' part. It's already there, in the program, in the way a head is turned, or whatever... That doesn't mean that it's not a good program ( quite the reverse, actually )..but there's no use pretending that the skaters have suddenly made leaps and bounds in their emotive ability.( But if the skaters could project some emotion , and I don't mean making faces, it would really add to the effect )

And when I say it's not the best work of Dean's that I've seen, that doesn't mean I think it's no good..just that I don't think it's quite the masterpiece some avid C/P fans want to claim ; that it's certain to take an equal place in skating history with Bolero, or Missing. It may well turn out to be a masterpiece of disguising the areas where C/P need further development ; emotion ,connection between partners, more fluidity in the body.

B/S , as far as I can see, made up the same number of placements between Olys and World's as C/P ( C/P 14 to 7 , B/S 15 to 8 ) due to retirements etc. I'm not forgetting that B/S's short program was not well received last year and that they ,too, have worked very hard over the summer. ( I'll bet he's twizzling away as we speak..;)) Like Joe, I think they're a very musical couple , and nicely expressive without being hammy. They have a well choreographed romantic program, with very nice music. ( and costumes )

I was being a bit facetious about the judging panel ( When have they ever stuck to their own guidelines if it didn't suit them ?)..but we haven't seen these couples head to head, B/S have more competitions under their belt ,and who's to say the panel won't prefer their kind of programs and /or expression ? It's not a given.

Overall ,I don't really like W/P's FD either..although I don't exactly find it distasteful..just pretty ordinary. I think they deserve something..more.. But if they execute it well technically,there's no question they connect to each other and with the audience.What will the judges do then ? I have had to raise my eyebrows when C/P have won over them on the strength of PCS scores. If I were them, it might have been enough to shake my confidence , in the past. So it's not that I'm such an uber for them , but I feel they deserve not to be counted out. So I keep giving their horn a toot. If Canada counts them out , the rest of the world will follow.
 
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I tend to agree a bit with Colleen.

C/P have made some improvements, and I really like their program. It's a great departure from what they have done before, and I like that they are stretching their limits. Is it the best thing that ever was? Don't think so. And yes, they still need to work on emotion, connection and fluidity. For those first 2, I think age and maturity have something to do with their lack of these. Really, they are still both teenagers. However, with the many years they have spent together skating, you would think this would not be such an issue. As for the last one, I've been thinking about this. On one hand, I think both skaters have benefited from skating singles - strength, speed, elements like twizzles - but perhaps it has also had a negative impact. Dance is about fluidity of movement individually and together. It puts a greater demand on both technical and artistic together. Singles builds the technical perhaps, but lots and lots of dance - modern, jazz, ballet, creating choreography off ice - is needed to balance. They sort of look more like 2 really good singles skaters that happen to dance well together, than pure dancers. Again, maybe as they get older this will all fall into place. I think the reason their SD is a little "ho hum" is because it is missing that fluidity of movement with a hint of sultry.

I like the Russians. I agree how they will do will depend on what side of the pendulum the judges fall - classical lines vs something unique and interesting.

And that goes for W/P as well. I LOVE their SD. It is elegant, the connection is there, and if they skate clean, it can finish ahead of C/P and the Russians. If C/P are more modern and technical, W/P are more classical, artistic dancers. They lack consistency, and their nerves seem to get the better of them from time to time. But when they are on, they are very lovely. I am also disappointed in their FD. It's really missing a "wow" factor for some reason. Maybe it will get better over the season, but it's not my favourite of theirs. But it would be a mistake to count them out entirely. In Canada, we have a clear #1 team (V/M), 2 teams that could easily trade 2nd and 3rd, depending on the day and the style of skating preferred (C/P and W/P). I'm not sure what exactly to do with I/P. They are the developing team, with a couple more teams not far behind....how far behind I'm not sure.
 
Ice dance just started and after the first 3 teams, guess what, the order is exactly the opposite everyone would've expected:
1. H/Z 55.98
2. W/P 55.51
3. B/S 54.33

The Hungarians skated very well, I thought, Andrew made some error I think in his first twizzle
and Dmitry messed badly his second twizzle, and their whole skate looked rushed and rough to me.
 
And to complete this picture, C&P are now behind both H&Z and W&P. And half a point ahead of the Russians. :p Make of that what you will.
 
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