Iconic jump combination

[karne]

Tuktamysheva's was as good.

As good? Liza's 3Lz is far superior.

 

[MiRé]

As good? Liza's 3Lz is far superior.

Read the title for once. It's iconic jump COMBINATION

 

[Bartek]

Liza never had the consistency of Yuna though, and this is coming from a Liza fan

Yes, but in terms of the sheer quality of the combination, Liza's was as good as Yu-Na's.

 

[FlattFan]

Yes, but in terms of the sheer quality of the combination, Liza's was as good as Yu-Na's.

Not really. Liza was very slow a few years ago when she was doing 3Lz-3T. Still very slow with basic skating skills now.
The speed in and out of the combo wasn't there. Isn't there. Will never be there.
The height and the distance of the combo also weren't even close to Kim's level.

Her form on the 3lz is better than Kim's, but is nothing like Kostner's form on 3lz. If Kostner was doing more 3lz-3toe, it would be better than Kim's. Liza is not even close.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I remember getting used to seeing the onslaught of 3/3 combos starting after the 2006 season and thinking they were becoming standard, then I saw Yu Na Kim's 3 Flip/3 Toe combo at 2009 Worlds and thinking holy crap. Her 3 Lutz/3 Toe combo in Vancouver was also impressive.

 

[Crossover]

Not really. Liza was very slow a few years ago when she was doing 3Lz-3T. Still very slow with basic skating skills now.
The speed in and out of the combo wasn't there. Isn't there. Will never be there.
The height and the distance of the combo also weren't even close to Kim's level.

Her form on the 3lz is better than Kim's, but is nothing like Kostner's form on 3lz. If Kostner was doing more 3lz-3toe, it would be better than Kim's. Liza is not even close.

If we talk about solo 3lz, I love Julia Sebestyen's huge and gorgeous 3lz as much as Yuna's while I don't feel Kostner's 3lz is as effortless as her flip.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

The problem I had with Sebestyen and Volchkova's high triple Lutzes is that they were at times landed at a stand still and almost always had little flow out of them. The best jumps to me combine height, distance, and flow.

 

[Crossover]

Volchkova Heard of her name after a really long time.
Her jumps were stiff and her basic skating and presentation were so poor.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Ito had the most effortless 3Lz-3T. In fact, she did the 3A-3T in practice and looked as effortless as most skaters' 3T-3T.

 

[creaturelover]

I remember getting used to seeing the onslaught of 3/3 combos starting after the 2006 season and thinking they were becoming standard, then I saw Yu Na Kim's 3 Flip/3 Toe combo at 2009 Worlds and thinking holy crap. Her 3 Lutz/3 Toe combo in Vancouver was also impressive.

Yuna's 3F3T combo was aaaaamazinggg at 09 Worlds

 

[MaxSwagg]

Mao 3F+3Lo

 

[gsyzf]

Not really. It's a different skill set. People who can do arm variations and difficult entrances can't necessarily jump huge, which is the most difficult thing of all (unless we're talking about super difficult entrances like a Triple Salchow directly out of a spin or something). Jumping smaller you can throw an arm over your head. Still difficult but not as much. Less effort is being expended by the skater when they jump smaller and there's less force they have to control.

I haven't seen Tsurkaya or the other juniors you mention. Let's see how the do when they move up. Gracie's jumps--when she does them-- are very nice but not in Kim's league. I am not a Kim fan by any means. I think she is overrated on artistry. Also her lack of a triple loop, her weak spirals and ugly layback take her out of the best of the best in my opinion. But there is also no denying the beauty of her 3-3 and her 3-lutz. And even better, she was amazingly consistent with those jumps. I put her 2nd behind only Midori Ito in jumping.

I’m not a fan of any ladies. I didn’t mean you prefer certain skaters’ jumps. I meant fans have different preference/taste for certain features of the jumps or certain skills related to the jumps. Some fans prefer quality related skills/features like height, distance and flow. Some fans prefer difficult related skills like arm variation, delayed rotation and steps/transitions before jumps. They are different skills. There is a tradeoff between acquiring different skills because each skater’s time, resources and talent is limited. If they train skill A, they would have less time and resources to train skill B. I think many skaters just train the skills that they are best at given their natural talent and body type. Some skaters are born as natural jumpers. It’s easy for them to jump big and far because their body types allow them to do so at ease. For skaters who are not born with strong leg power, it’s hard (if not impossible) for them to jump big. So they train to jump with arm variations or jump with preceding steps/transitions. Both skaters need to train to acquire the two sets of skills. I don’t see the former skater necessarily better than the latter skater or vice versa. But I see skaters who have both sets of skills to be better than skaters who only have one set of skills. E.g. skaters who can jump with great height, distance and flow, as well as preceding steps/transitions/delayed rotation/ arm variation are better jumpers than someone who only jump with height, distance and flow with no additional difficulty.

Extra comment:
As for who is the best jumper, I usually look at jump quality, difficulty, variety and consistency, not just quality. There is tradeoff between quality, difficulty, variety and consistency. If a skater attempts difficult jumps or more types of jumps/jump combinations, it will lower his /her consistency and quality because there is limited time and resources. Most skaters don’t have them all. 3A is especially difficult for ladies. It’s a big risk for girls to attempt 3A in competition. Girls’ consistency usually takes a big hit when they add 3A to their programs. To me, ladies who can incorporate 3A and 3-3 in their programs and execute them with good quality (e.g. Midori Ito, Tonya Harding, Elizaveta Tuktamysheva) are better jumpers than ladies who can’t jump 3A and 3-3.

 

[MaxSwagg]

I’m not a fan of any ladies. I didn’t mean you prefer certain skaters’ jumps. I meant fans have different preference/taste for certain features of the jumps or certain skills related to the jumps. Some fans prefer quality related skills/features like height, distance and flow. Some fans prefer difficult related skills like arm variation, delayed rotation and steps/transitions before jumps. They are different skills. There is a tradeoff between acquiring different skills because each skater’s time, resources and talent is limited. If they train skill A, they would have less time and resources to train skill B. I think many skaters just train the skills that they are best at given their natural talent and body type. Some skaters are born as natural jumpers. It’s easy for them to jump big and far because their body types allow them to do so at ease. For skaters who are not born with strong leg power, it’s hard (if not impossible) for them to jump big. So they train to jump with arm variations or jump with preceding steps/transitions. Both skaters need to train to acquire the two sets of skills. I don’t see the former skater necessarily better than the latter skater or vice versa. But I see skaters who have both sets of skills to be better than skaters who only have one set of skills. E.g. skaters who can jump with great height, distance and flow, as well as preceding steps/transitions/delayed rotation/ arm variation are better jumpers than someone who only jump with height, distance and flow with no additional difficulty.

Extra comment:
As for who is the best jumper, I usually look at jump quality, difficulty, variety and consistency, not just quality. There is tradeoff between quality, difficulty, variety and consistency. If a skater attempts difficult jumps or more types of jumps/jump combinations, it will lower his /her consistency and quality because there is limited time and resources. Most skaters don’t have them all. 3A is especially difficult for ladies. It’s a big risk for girls to attempt 3A in competition. Girls’ consistency usually takes a big hit when they add 3A to their programs. To me, ladies who can incorporate 3A and 3-3 in their programs and execute them with good quality (e.g. Midori Ito, Tonya Harding, Elizaveta Tuktamysheva) are better jumpers than ladies who can’t jump 3A and 3-3.

I wouldn't say Tuktamysheva, Ito, or Harding, while rotated and big, have "good" quality. It's really just okay. I prefer effortlessness, superb posture (which I certainly don't equate with Ito, Harding, and Tukt).

 

[gsyzf]

I wouldn't say Tuktamysheva, Ito, or Harding, while rotated and big, have "good" quality. It's really just okay. I prefer effortlessness, superb posture (which I certainly don't equate with Ito, Harding, and Tukt).

Effortless is subjective. If you ask 10 people, they might give you 10 different definitions of effortlessness and who they see as having effortless jumps. I think effortless is a very subjective measurement of quality. It's basically about who the viewer likes the most. There are fans who see Ito, Harding, and Tuktamysheva's jumps as effortless. Good posture is subjective too and also depends a lot on the body type of the skater. Ito, Harding and Tuktamysheva are not princesses. (I don't think any girls with a princess type of body can jump 3A without under-rotating the jump or borderline under-rotating the jump.) They will never have the posture of princesses or models no matter how hard they try. I personally never use effortlessness or posture to judge a jump because that depends entirely on my taste and I don't think it's fair to judge others using my taste.

Ito, Harding and Tuktamysheva do have good quality in the more objective measurements like height, distance and flow.

 

[MaxSwagg]

Effortless is subjective. If you ask 10 people, they might give you 10 different definitions of effortlessness and who they see as having effortless jumps. I think effortless is a very subjective measurement of quality. It's basically about who the viewer likes the most. There are fans who see Ito, Harding, and Tuktamysheva's jumps as effortless. Good posture is subjective too and also depends a lot on the body type of the skater. Ito, Harding and Tuktamysheva are not princesses. (I don't think any girls with a princess type of body can jump 3A without under-rotating the jump or borderline under-rotating the jump.) They will never have the posture of princesses or models no matter how hard they try. I personally never use effortlessness or posture to judge a jump because that depends entirely on my taste and I don't think it's fair to judge others using my taste.

Ito, Harding and Tuktamysheva do have good quality in the more objective measurements like height, distance and flow.

Posture is not subjective. Kovtun = absolutely horrific posture; Chan = impeccable posture. Arguably even "effortlessness". Hanyu 3A = absolutely as perfect as can be; a jump that seemingly takes little energy for him (well, all of his jumps are generally superior to others'). Most others = you can tell it's difficult and "takes energy and effort." Liza = "Look, I'm going to do an incredibly difficult 3A!" I want to see a jump where this phrase isn't going through my mind.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Hanyu 3A = absolutely as perfect as can be

I definitely can't agree with that. He's a master of the jump for sure and is able to do it with a shockingly low amount of effort, but it's not the biggest 3A ever and he generally finishes the rotation right as he lands, not having the same amount of "hang time" as other executions of the jump. Hanyu of course makes it more difficult for himself with the entrances but even without a difficult entrance I've never seen him be able to do a 3A like Yagudin/Petrenko/Browning/Boitano and all the other people with that kind of technique on the jump.

 

[Meoima]

I definitely can't agree with that. He's a master of the jump for sure and is able to do it with a shockingly low amount of effort, but it's not the biggest 3A ever and he generally finishes the rotation right as he lands, not having the same amount of "hang time" as other executions of the jump. Hanyu of course makes it more difficult for himself with the entrances but even without a difficult entrance I've never seen him be able to do a 3A like Yagudin/Petrenko/Browning/Boitano and all the other people with that kind of technique on the jump.

Well Yuzuru always jumps his 3A in the second half and in combo... and always with difficult entrance. I hardly see him does 3A without any difficulty lol. My friends who have watched him live in practice at Boston all said his 3A is HUGE (and even his 3A3T is huge too). So I think it's ok for them to say his 3A is the best because that's the best they have seen in their generation.

And with all my love to Yagudin, he was an amazing jumper but I don't think his technique was impeccable. Let's say I think Yagudin was more powerful but Plushy had better technique.

 

[MaxSwagg]

I strongly disagree. And since he's been mentioned, Kurt concedes this as well. One could also say if those men had the same body as Hanyu could they even do a 3A period, let alone with a series of difficult steps and turns immediately preceding it?

Since he's been a senior, certainly the best. And certainly the best of anyone currently.

 

[4everchan]

this thread is about combos... but if I may join the 3A party : i have a favourite and it's not yuzu, despite his being gorgeous as well... here is my preferred one

and in combo

 

[mrrice]

this thread is about combos... but if I may join the 3A party : i have a favourite and it's not yuzu, despite his being gorgeous as well... here is my preferred one

and in combo

Wow!!!! I agree completely. He could have used his Venture Card with all those miles he flew. What's in your wallet......Okaaay: