Iconic jump combination

[Meoima]

Yes it would. And no he is not stalking the jump, he is doing powerful crossovers into it. Gliding across the ice with majesty.
The second 3A there has a transition into it and more flow out.
As for the Brezina comparison, he takes more a "stalk" to it and does not complete the rotation in the air like this.

My take is that this kind of jumping style looked powerful but now people don't jump it this way anymore. The air position was too open and it cost the skaters huge energy just to get it done. The top skaters like Yagudin, Petrenko, Kulik etc in the old days jumped it that way because they:

1) were taught that kind of technique first
2) front loaded their programs
3) did not have too many transitions and additional levels and other elements and other exhausting requirements in one program like today
4) their bodies were very strong

I see that today's skater's jumps are leaning toward tight air position and faster rotation with free legs releasing just on time (they don't release free leg early like the old days) and if they're good enough they get good flow out of the jumps, these kinds of modern details make the jumps look more precise, neat and refined if done well.

 

[mrrice]

The height and distance were not that great, he gets a bit tilted in the air, and he does not have hang time in the air before completing the rotation:

Hanyu sandwich spread eagle - It was a brilliant choreographic and interpretative concept here and certainly very difficult, but the jump itself lacks many "best" qualities.

Now here is a 3A+3T and solo 3A from Petrenko - Look at the explosiveness off the ice (Hanyu's jump is not this high) and how he is able to stop rotating more than a foot off the ice, coming down out of the jump with a fully extended leg and completely straight back. The second 3A here has a spiral transition before it too.

I realize the 90's were not the best era for costumes but YIKES!! What is Viktor wearing ?? :eekn:

 

[4everchan]

^^
I am not sure what kind of technique is used here, to me it looks more like what you refer as "old technique" but Nicolas is definitely not old


however, it's very impressive to me another great 3A-3T by Nicolas

 

[Mathman]

I see that today's skater's jumps are leaning toward tight air position and faster rotation with free legs releasing just on time (they don't release free leg early like the old days) and if they're good enough they get good flow out of the jumps, these kinds of modern details make the jumps look more precise, neat and refined if done well.

Precise, neat and refined, but at the cost of the old "TA-DA!" that made skaters like Boitano so much fun.

 

[Meoima]

Yes it would. And no he is not stalking the jump, he is doing powerful crossovers into it. Gliding across the ice with majesty.
The second 3A there has a transition into it and more flow out.
As for the Brezina comparison, he takes more a "stalk" to it and does not complete the rotation in the air like this.

The old styled jumps were very high, in fact most skaters in the 90s jumled very high, but the new style jumps are long, have you noticed? What was the reason of the transition? I think it has to do with the different coaching style.

 

[Meoima]

Precise, neat and refined, but at the cost of the old "TA-DA!" that made skaters like Boitano so much fun.

I have noticed that even the Russians who used to jump very high, now many of them are not jumping the old ways anymore. I think there must be some cons to it that's why the technique was changed.

 

[Meoima]

^^
I am not sure what kind of technique is used here, to me it looks more like what you refer as "old technique" but Nicolas is definitely not old
however, it's very impressive to me another great 3A-3T by Nicolas

In my opinion his coach might be the one who prefer the old style. It doesn't mean the technique is old or that no one jump it that way any more, it means the old days they used to jump that way a lot but now the trend is different.

If you notice the top men's jumps, they're not doing it this way anymore. Look at Patrick, his jumps tend to be long with some arc, he doesn't jump up and down like Nadeau. Main reason I guess was from the technique of the ones who taught them in the first places.

 

[4everchan]

yup... I know how Patrick does his.... and that's why I prefer Nadeau's and Han's and the Petrenko BOP posted earlier... those are the kind of 3A-3T i love. just my preference though.

In my opinion his coach might be the one who prefer the old style. It doesn't mean the technique is old or that no one jumo it that way any more, it means the old days they used to jumo that way a lot but now the trend is different.
If you notice the top men jumps, they're not doing it this way anymore. Look at Patrick, his jumps tend to be long with some arc, he doesn't jump up and down like Nadeau.

 

[Blades of Passion]

My take is that this kind of jumping style looked powerful but now people don't jump it this way anymore. The air position was too open and it cost the skaters huge energy just to get it done.

It doesn't matter "why" people are not jumping as much like that anymore, those qualities will always be objectively commendable. As you say, it takes more energy to jump like that; it's difficult and requires strength and skill, an athletic feat. This is exactly why that kind of jumping should be worth the most points, in terms of individual jump elements themselves. If people want to make their jumps smaller and less airy in order to include more transitions, then they are simply transferring their expenditure of energy (and their point gaining) from one area to another (jump GOE vs. Transitions score). So then it becomes a debate on exactly which approach should be worth more points.

The real determining factor should come down to which approach is better for the choreography and musical interpretation of the program.

 

[Mathman]

The real determining factor should come down to which approach is better for the choreography and musical interpretation of the program.

I agree with that. If your triple Axel is the best thing you've got going for you, save it for the gigantic cymbal crash (Todd Eldredge).

If you've already got a quad Lutz / triple toe planned there, then you can do your triple Axel to the meandering flute motif. :yes:

 

[4everchan]

:agree:

I agree with that. If your triple Axel is the best thing you've got going for you, save it for the gigantic cymbal crash (Todd Eldredge).

If you've already got a quad Lutz / triple toe planned there, then you can do you triple Axel to the meandering flute motif. :yes:

 

[Lys]

It doesn't matter "why" people are not jumping as much like that anymore, those qualities will always be objectively commendable. As you say, it takes more energy to jump like that; it's difficult and requires strength and skill, an athletic feat. This is exactly why that kind of jumping should be worth the most points, in terms of individual jump elements themselves.

Those jumps lack flow, lack distance, lack a good and tight air position, which are other objectively other commendable qualities.
The fact you prefer them more this way doesn't mean they should be worth the most point, it just means YOU like them more and YOU would rate them better. (Personally, I find them ugly as ***, but that's another matter. Bar Raya's. That's so ugly to become iconic itself ).

 

[MaxSwagg]

The height and distance were not that great, he gets a bit tilted in the air, and he does not have hang time in the air before completing the rotation:

Hanyu sandwich spread eagle - It was a brilliant choreographic and interpretative concept here and certainly very difficult, but the jump itself lacks many "best" qualities.

Now here is a 3A+3T and solo 3A from Petrenko - Look at the explosiveness off the ice (Hanyu's jump is not this high) and how he is able to stop rotating more than a foot off the ice, coming down out of the jump with a fully extended leg and completely straight back. The second 3A here has a spiral transition before it too.

The one in the SP at 2015 Skate Canada was superior to this.

 

[gkelly]

The old styled jumps were very high, in fact most skaters in the 90s jumled very high, but the new style jumps are long, have you noticed? What was the reason of the transition? I think it has to do with the different coaching style.

I think there are some variations of coaching style across the coaching field in any era.

But I also think that some techniques prove more successful at getting more skaters to be able to land jumps that previously only the most talented were able to master. So if you're a coach with skaters of average athletic ability and you can teach then to land double axels with a technique A but they can't do it with technique B that works only for the most talented, you teach technique A. Same if you have some skaters above-average but not stellar technique who can learn triples only with a certain technique.

So those techniques become commonly taught, and the techniques that work only for a select few become rarer, even if they might produce purer jumps among those select few.

The same would be true for triple axels and quads, even though skaters who actually have the physical possibility to learn those jumps at all would count as among the "select few" within the greater scheme of all male skaters.

 

[Sydney Rose]

I definitely can't agree with that. He's a master of the jump for sure and is able to do it with a shockingly low amount of effort, but it's not the biggest 3A ever and he generally finishes the rotation right as he lands, not having the same amount of "hang time" as other executions of the jump. Hanyu of course makes it more difficult for himself with the entrances but even without a difficult entrance I've never seen him be able to do a 3A like Yagudin/Petrenko/Browning/Boitano and all the other people with that kind of technique on the jump.

That should read "a shockingly low amount of VISIBLE effort" -- which is what makes his jumps so amazing and which is why so many skating veterans were so blown away by his skating at NHK and at the Grand Prix final. It takes tremendous athleticism and skill to make the difficult look effortless, to make the most difficult triples and quads look like they descended from heaven (to paraphrase Kurt's description of Hanyu's jumps). And he's not doing simple crossovers into them either.

Why should he "be able to do a 3A like Yagudin/Petrenko/Browning/Boitano"? That was then, this is now. By today's standards, his jumping is frequently deemed "other-worldly." Can't get better than that.

 

[MaxSwagg]

That should read "a shockingly low amount of VISIBLE effort" -- which is what makes his jumps so amazing and which is why so many skating veterans were so blown away by his skating at NHK and at the Grand Prix final. It takes tremendous athleticism and skill to make the difficult look effortless, to make the most difficult triples and quads look like they descended from heaven (to paraphrase Kurt's description of Hanyu's jumps). And he's not doing simple crossovers into them either.

Why should he "be able to do a 3A like Yagudin/Petrenko/Browning/Boitano"? That was then, this is now. By today's standards, his jumping is frequently deemed "other-worldly." Can't get better than that.

Yes. Many praise Yuzu's jumping technique as essentially perfect. Kurt especially. He spends much time during podcasts and broadcasts gushing in awe over the purity and perfection of his jumps.

 

[karne]

Hmm. When I am not running late for work, I will dig up a video of Kulik doing 3A out of spreadeagle, since apparently some people need to be reminded that Hanyu was NOT the first person to do that. (And Kulik's 3A is better.)

 

[MaxSwagg]

Hmm. When I am not running late for work, I will dig up a video of Kulik doing 3A out of spreadeagle, since apparently some people need to be reminded that Hanyu was NOT the first person to do that. (And Kulik's 3A is better.)

No, there were some small flaws but it was still very good.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Those jumps lack flow, lack distance, lack a good and tight air position.

No they don't, that's just factually incorrect. Did you even watch them? Petrenko's air position on his 3A was better than Hanyu's.

Why should Hanyu "be able to do a 3A like Yagudin/Petrenko/Browning/Boitano"? That was then, this is now.

Nobody said he has to do a 3A like those guys, but those jumps have certain positive qualities that Hanyu's do NOT. Everything must be taken into consideration and properly weighed in order for the sport to be scored most accurately.

And people were blown away with Hanyu's skating at NHK and the GPF because of the overall difficulty and execution. That doesn't change how his 3Axels, taken on their own, are not executed the absolute best ever, particularly in his LP when is more tired. Look, you can visibly see how he goes into the jump slightly tilted, doesn't complete the rotation with room to spare in the air, and hunches a bit on the landing - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muZD0zBYQGU&t=3m35s - they are strong jumps of course but not the best. His ability to swing his body into the jump instead of first jumping UP and THEN rotating is what gives him the consistency and ability to do them with more complex entrances.

 

[FlattFan]

No they don't, that's just factually incorrect. Did you even watch them? Petrenko's air position on his 3A was better than Hanyu's.
Nobody said he has to do a 3A like those guys, but those jumps have certain positive qualities that Hanyu's do NOT. Everything must be taken into consideration and properly weighed in order for the sport to be scored most accurately.

Petrenko's air position is certainly better than Hanyu. So is the height of the jump. But that's it. Nothing else is close to being as good. a bunch of cross overs and still somehow being slower into the jump than Hanyu. Landing wasn't smooth with little flow. Rippon owns that stalking into the 3A, but Petrenko is giving him a good run there.

Low quality going in.
Low quality going out.
Good height.
Good air position.

Basically a +1 GOE jump. How is this considered the best ever is beyond comprehension.