Iconic jump combination

[Meoima]

Again, it's not about 6.0 era, it's about factual science, the physics of jump mechanics. Sport is supposed to quantify physical achievement. Jumping bigger, finishing all of your rotations in the air, landing with perfect posture...these things all take an exertion of energy and a control of the body to make it happen.

Where is the argument that Figure Skating's main goal is the mastering of blade? Again, Top contenders already jump bigger than most current men. Yuzuru's jumps are around 48.83 cm in average, his quad is around 60 cm in height (comepare this to a larger man aka Javi whose jumps are about 47cm height in average). Yuzuru's quad toe at Sochi was 3.72 meter. His quad Sal at NHK 2015 was 3.4 meter, how are these jumps small?

Furthermore, why do you ignore history? There are great aspects to skating of the past decades that should NOT be forgotten and should still be valued. It's similar to film, you don't just ignore all of the films made 20 years ago, as if they are now useless. You look at the varying techniques and styles and compositions, try to see what worked best and why. The rules in figure skating are whatever we want them to be, the set of values that we ascribe to the process.

No one is ignoring history. I am stating that there are many ways to be amazing. The old style is amazing, and the new style is amazing too. One thing wrong is to define that the old is the ultimate correct one. You prefer the old style ok. But you can't expect people to share the same preference.

Parents who have the money, of course. There's no doubt that when a skater has immense success like Yu-Na, it's going to lead to others trying to copy that success for themselves. South Korea didn't have much of a figure skating program in the past, now it's better, but that still doesn't speak to sustained audience relation. People will do all manner of things in life simply to achieve success, but more people using figure skating as their method doesn't much help the sport in terms of being something that continually interests a large audience, like movies or music do. After the kids don't achieve the success and the parents stop paying, then what?

You're saying as if it's not the same in other field like music, dance... etc In fact it's the same with all other sports and arts. At least there are people paying money for their children to practice FS, that means there are interest. If there is none, you have no students in the first place.

Hmm, pushing the boundaries how exactly? "Artistry" used to be an important thing to achieve in skating and it's been diminished. Again, one thing pushed aside in service of another. Is the gain worth the loss? That's what is important to consider. Figuring out where to make gains without taking losses is really the ideal.

How is any of this more artistic than the current bad programs?
https://youtu.be/t_LIhHGAOdI?t=2m39s
https://youtu.be/3SHsxx0GE-I?t=46s
https://youtu.be/Q2uNj9JXIKs?t=2m37s
https://youtu.be/WaJwMU_PSmg?t=1m44s
https://youtu.be/sn0tltn83UY?t=3m43s
https://youtu.be/_kMPMyQ4WSk?t=1m4s
https://youtu.be/a_8XhM4n6wo?t=2m14s
https://youtu.be/Ixhmo_iuqH8?t=1m58s
https://youtu.be/5I_-8uUJ94M?t=2m13s
https://youtu.be/IkrfexVFctI?t=3m12s

It IS the system's issue. The guy is going out there an doing extremely difficult jumps, spins, transitions. There's clearly enough physical capability. The issue is where the focus is going, as per the scoring system. Holding your body into good positions, moving your body into interesting shapes, moving directly in time with the music, finishing off your movements, projecting to the audience...these things DO take a lot of energy and skill. That skillset has been pushed aside in the sport, to cram more turns into footwork sequences, more turns/steps into the transitions, twisted positions in spins, more jump combos...it's all more, more, more...instead of showcasing the highest form of dance and theater on ice possible, artistry in motion

ok if that's what you believe. Meanwhile Orser says he is forcing Yuzuru to visit the gym for at least 2 hours per day.

Right, but people understand how to read music for a reason, and people can recognize lacking aspects and how it could be better, the same as how editors look at a novel/film/essay and discern how to better arrange and alter the work into its best form.
Since we're on the topic, these have some relevance - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNaXQQbcgw0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zl-N2JleNeU&t=6m50s

Nah, at least with music you have notes to describe it. With dance and choreography you have what? Will you draw the choreography yourself? Unless there's animated video in motion, everything you say about choreography is just on paper and has same weight as paper.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I know he is a genius and he learns choreography incredibly quickly ( Morozov said it) but to learn choreography and to prepare for ECH are different things.In 2002 he was only 19, he has 2 ECH and 1 WCH titles.. I don't think he was a big champion in that time. He wanted to compete all the time.

Well, Plushenko's choreography wasn't exactly difficult to learn or execute (outside of his footwork sequences), and as mentioned his layout was for the most part pretty predictable. His jumps however were still super difficult -- I just wish when he was winning due to an obvious technical advantage over the field, he started experimenting a bit more with his jump layous and tried being more innovative in terms of choreography.

 

[FlattFan]

When the internet declares Yuzuru has "small" 3A, you know you had too much to drink. In the mean time, take a look

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HCU_rAIxH8

 

[Mathman]

Where is the argument that the ultimate of figure skating means you needs to master the blade control?

I have actually read every post on this interesting and impassioned thread. (Where's my prize? ) I think this is the key point.

I always felt that Patrick Chan was the first skater truly to understand what the new judging system was about. Patrick invented the "happy feet" style (possibly influenced by Kurt Browning as a pro). His signature and pride were his amazing blade to ice skills, while adding punctuated highlights like big jumps at a controlled pace throughout his early career. The judging system rewarded him with world championships even when he made a glaring mistake or two.

The next step was taken by Yuzuru Hanyu. What is remarkable about Hanyu's style is the fluidity and coherence of the whole program. Each element flows naturally into the next. You can't tell exactly where one element ends and the next begins. I think it is too early to ask whether this style will be the new standard for men's ice skating, because so far Hanyu is the only one who can do it. Or at least, he does it so much better and more naturally than anyone else that we can't really make generalizations about "new style" and "old style."

To me, a skating performance is a string of pearls. Which is more important, the pearls or how they are strung?

 

[4everchan]

the quality of each pearl...

 

[plushyfan]

Well, Plushenko's choreography wasn't exactly difficult to learn or execute (outside of his footwork sequences), and as mentioned his layout was for the most part pretty predictable. His jumps however were still super difficult -- I just wish when he was winning due to an obvious technical advantage over the field, he started experimenting a bit more with his jump layous and tried being more innovative in terms of choreography.

Hello CSG! Where have you been? I missed you so much. :luv17: In that time his choreographies weren't bad at all. Maybe those weren't suitable for North American tastes.

For example these programs are favorites of many FS fans:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz-urvuFrf4 E. PLUSHENKO - 2000 EUROPEAN CHAMPIONSHIPS - FS ABC commentary 17.y.o his first ECH title

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PWM2NESsGw Evgeni Plushenko 2001 EC LP Once upon a time in America-second ECh title-ES commentary

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGanRnHVNIs Tango and flamenco SP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEJXkfMYTX4 Nijinsky!!!!!!!!

But I recommand you his Crazy Bird program at Japan Open 1999. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1vHflKsyU0 The 16 y.o. genius. You couldn't show me another 16.y.o guy who can skate like this. Original, confidence, entertaining, funny!

Do you follow Sandhu? He worked with Plushenko in June: "Plushenko and I making choreography for him. Very talented."- https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=300887623582589&id=100009840616326&_rdr#300959590242059

and probably choreographed this https://www.instagram.com/p/BHSOO3qgVIt/?taken-by=plushenkoofficial

And finally in my country we say "The less sometimes is more" . I don't like the too busy programs and I'm not alone. Sometimes something is missing and a very well-choreographed program is boring. I can mention some Chan's programs.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Where is the argument that Figure Skating's main goal is the mastering of blade?

Jumping huge with suspended rotation and a clean landing requires blade control. Doing shallow steps into a jump, just to have extra steps there, and then doing a relatively small jump with relatively lacking posture/flow (the Triple Loop example in Hanyu's program that I keep talking about), does not show superior blade control to me.

Also, blade control is obviously very important, but it's not only important thing. Otherwise it would just be a figures contest, which is not what we want competitive ice skating to be. That alone is too boring and also athletically not as challenging. Competitive ice skating is about showcasing a series of energy-draining movements/elements with a level of blade control and putting it all into an artistic, performing package (this makes it all more difficult AND is what draws an audience into the sport) at the same time.

One thing wrong is to define that the old is the ultimate correct one. You prefer the old style ok.

No, that's not what I am saying.

You're saying as if it's not the same in other field like music, dance... etc In fact it's the same with all other sports and arts. At least there are people paying money for their children to practice FS, that means there are interest.

Most things in life have at least a small group of people who find it interesting. What I am talking about is the level of interest and appeal. Look at the audiences that football, basketball, music concerts, and films draw in. Also the amount of people who participate in such activities. Figure skating used to generate that much of an audience. Now it doesn't. So do we want to improve that or not?

Also, the people participating in the sport itself could get more fulfillment out of it with better rules in place. People who are interested in something will pursue it even if it's not ideal. Perhaps because they have no other option.

How is any of this more artistic than the current bad programs?

Comparing the worst from the past is a fallacy. Terrible performances are possible under any system, although you expect it to be rare at the elite level. What's important is comparing the average of the level the performances are at and also the heights achieved under each set of rules.

As for your examples this was certainly very expressive and commendable - https://youtu.be/3SHsxx0GE-I?t=46s. The attention to detail of moving the body to reflect the exact nature of the music. Obviously she didn't sustain the quality and detail throughout but you see a distinct idea being presented, an intent. There is less of that in skating now.

It's hilarious that you tried to cite Kerrigan's 1991 performance as bad. This program was very good - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaJwMU_PSmg - she presents a clear sense of the tone and meaning of the music throughout, even if you want to criticize the one moment of her wiggly arm choreography. The way she does a long, long beautiful spiral at the end is something we NEVER see anymore, ever.

In fact, a great case study is comparing Nancy Kerrigan's "Born on the Fourth of July" to Mariah Bell's modern version - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jGl30kwGf4 - this program doesn't have nearly as much depth and movement to the music. It's more about constantly moving around for no specific reason, just to show more turns, and pasting these movements on top of the music. Specifically look at the entrance into her Lutz and compare what she is doing there with the music to what Kerrigan does in her program. Mariah's program doesn't express the pulsating beat of the music, Kerrigan's does.

Nah, at least with music you have notes to describe it. With figure skating you have what?

You have examples of movements, many of which have been given names. Spread eagle, ina bauer, twizzle, etc. You can also notate every turn/step in a program. There are specifically step charts in figure skating, that show the pattern of a planned dance or required element.

When the internet declares Yuzuru has "small" 3A, you know you had too much to drink.

Nobody has said that, it's just relative. Plus, rotation in the air is separate from the size of a jump. We are talking about the best jumps here. Jumps that aren't the best can still be good.

 

[karne]

Tom Z posted this clip of Max working a single jump-4T combination this morning.

Two hours later, Brendan posted this clip (1A-4T).

Could we see an epic showdown for a new combination?

 

[Blades of Passion]

There was a skater who did 2A+4T combination in practice, rotated adequately enough on the second jump. Forget who it was.

Even doing a 1A+4T cleanly would be impressive. Unfortunately it's not worth the points under this system, even though that's a harder combo than 4T+2T.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

There was a skater who did 2A+4T combination in practice, rotated adequately enough on the second jump. Forget who it was.

Even doing a 1A+4T cleanly would be impressive. Unfortunately it's not worth the points under this system, even though that's a harder combo than 4T+2T.

It was Morris from Eteri's group. :shocked:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=B958exLmbWA

 

[4everchan]

one thing with the IJS.. they need to assign BV for combos...

2L-3L is not the same as 3L-2L...

and actually, back then, in the 90s, we saw the women do 2T-3T as a study into getting 3t-3t

so if people got credit for doing 2t-4t or 3t-4t, we may get to 4t-4t faster and better... it would be nice if the IJS credited harder combos as they should be credited...

it's irks me when a skater gets as many points doing 3t-3t and 3Lz as one doing 3Lz-3t and 3t.

sigh

- - - Updated - - -

sexy combo

It was Morris from Eteri's group. :shocked:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=B958exLmbWA

 

[Meoima]

Jumping huge with suspended rotation and a clean landing requires blade control.

If you execute your jump in the first half of the program with over 10 crosssovers before it, yes. Sorry but doing 98688494739832 crossovers before a jump is not the ultimate technique in my opinion. I am not saying my preference is ideal, but when a skater takes tooo longgggg for a jump it will all come down to this: "When the heck he/she is going to jump????"

Most things in life have at least a small group of people who find it interesting. What I am talking about is the level of interest and appeal. Look at the audiences that football, basketball, music concerts, and films draw in. Also the amount of people who participate in such activities. Figure skating used to generate that much of an audience. Now it doesn't. So do we want to improve that or not?

I beg to differ. As I have said, you have less FS fans in US it does not mean you have less FS fans in everywhere. Russians still love FS, maybe even more than before. Asians also love FS much more than before. There have been many good juniors. Even some juniors in Europe are looking quite promising now. There has been tivi drama, anime about FS. Before US there is the world, sorry if this sport is not famous in NA anymore but it is not the rest of the world's fault. You can't use NA as the representative of THE WHOLE WORLD.

As for your examples this was certainly very expressive and commendable - https://youtu.be/3SHsxx0GE-I?t=46s. The attention to detail of moving the body to reflect the exact nature of the music. Obviously she didn't sustain the quality and detail throughout but you see a distinct idea being presented, an intent. There is less of that in skating now.

Sorry, It was just a horrible and weird choreography to me.

It's hilarious that you tried to cite Kerrigan's 1991 performance as bad. This program was very good - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaJwMU_PSmg - she presents a clear sense of the tone and meaning of the music throughout, even if you want to criticize the one moment of her wiggly arm choreography. The way she does a long, long beautiful spiral at the end is something we NEVER see anymore, ever.

It was boring and weird. Everything Nacy Kerringan did even in her prime was funny to me. Sometimes I have to keep myself from laughing out loud because "WHAT THE HECK was that?" I give you those examples to tell you that, many things people prefer in the old days and once enjoyed them very much, now can look very ridiculous in the current time. It is not a suprise that many of the performance these days will look weird and funny 20 years later. It is the passage of time. You consider it good and classic etc, many people consider it funny.

Nobody has said that, it's just relative. Plus, rotation in the air is separate from the size of a jump. We are talking about the best jumps here. Jumps that aren't the best can still be good.

And "the best" can be subjective as hell. Many people call Callas the best diva ever, does that mean her voice was the best ever in most people's view? You prefer the vertical style of jumping and think it's the best. But many people prefer the horizontal of jumping and call it the best. There is no end to this.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Sorry but doing 98688494739832 crossovers before a jump is not the ultimate technique in my opinion.

You are exaggerating the crossovers. Especially since the 3Axel of Petrenko's had a spiral directly before it. Again, you're just burying your head in the sand.

It was boring and weird. Everything Nacy Kerringan did even in her prime was funny to me.

What great reasoning you are presenting. If this is all you can take out of that entire program and performance then you're really missing something. Even the arm movements you chose to criticize were following the exact tone of the music, if you pay attention to the metallic alternating sound of the notes at that point.

As I have said, you have less FS fans in US it does not mean you have less FS fans in everywhere. Russians still love FS, maybe even more than before. Asians also love FS much more than before. Before US there is the world, sorry if this sport is not famous in NA anymore but it is not the rest of the world's fault. You can't use NA as the representative of THE WHOLE WORLD.

The sport is less popular in the whole of Europe, aside from Russia (thanks to the Olympics being held there and the Russian team being so successful). It's not just North America. Your blanket statement of "Asians love figure skating" is also not very accurate. Japan is one country of Asia.

 

[Meoima]

You are exaggerating the crossovers. Especially since the 3Axel of Petrenko's had a spiral directly before it. Again, you're just burying your head in the sand.

Nah, I am not exaggating. I didn't say it's wrong. I say I don't think it's the ultimate beauty. When I see a skater take so long to do a jump, it's all the same, when are they going to jump it? And please if you think the open air position is beautiful it's your opinion, it's not mine.

What great reasoning you are presenting. If this is all you can take out of that entire program and performance then you're really missing something. Even the arm movements you chose to criticize were following the exact tone of the music, if you pay attention to the metallic alternating sound of the notes at that point.

I am not saying there was nothing good in the choreography. There was some nice moves of course. But as a whole it's not "artistic" to me. Frankly, I'd rather watch some new programs over that. Now I look back to 90s music and I wonder "why the heck I enjoyed these when I was a teen?" Now they just sound cheese to me. 20 years later many fans will say they don't see the appeal of today's choreography and that's perfectly normal.

The sport is less popular in the whole of Europe, aside from Russia (thanks to the Olympics being held there and the Russian team being so successful). It's not just North America. Your blanket statement of "Asians love figure skating" is also not very accurate. Japan is one country of Asia.

Where is the evidence that FS is less famous? Do you have the exact number of how much profitable FS was then and how it is now? Or do you speak it for yourself? Sorry but FS has always been considered a niche sport by the media. The shift has changed it does not mean it's less popular or so.
And please I am living in Asia. 3 years ago there was no ice rink in my country. Now we have 6 ice rinks including an Olympic ice rink. You speak for yourself and I also speak for myself.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Where is the evidence that FS is less famous? Do you have the exact number of how much profitable FS was then and how it is now?

There are estimates from various places. Groups like the ISU won't publicly release it, of course, but it is quite well known.

Sorry but FS has always been considered a niche sport by the media.

Simply not true. I'm glad you have more rinks where you live now, though.

 

[Meoima]

There are estimates from various places. Groups like the ISU won't publicly release it, of course, but it is quite well known.

The last time I remember Didier (on his website) praising Speedy's archivement in funding and license fee all, that ISU has collected some good savings? Of course Didier is not very much reliable but I think he has some ground to say that.

 

[plushyfan]

Well, Plushenko's choreography wasn't exactly difficult to learn or execute (outside of his footwork sequences), and as mentioned his layout was for the most part pretty predictable. His jumps however were still super difficult -- I just wish when he was winning due to an obvious technical advantage over the field, he started experimenting a bit more with his jump layous and tried being more innovative in terms of choreography.

It would be better if I showed you these videos. In 2010 AOI China rehearsal videos:

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIsVXRVJVX0 Plushenko arrived later, he is standing next to the fence and watching the other skaters who practiced the group number choreograpy. One of the most interesting things when Renee Roca( the choreographer) welcomes Plushy with a very intimate hug

2.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhCwWQUXQf8 Reneé is teaching him

3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZpWEMiFaeU Plushy skates the other skaters. He knows better than Johnny. The posters also noticed: "Man, Plushenko learns fast!!! lol I would have forgotten everything -Working with him must be a treat for choreographers and fellow skaters! He really does pick things up rapidly."

And that wasn't an easy choreo.

 

[MaxSwagg]

Make no mistake, Japan is the home of figure skating right now.

 

[TryMeLater]

I'm quite surprised Marina Kielmann's 2A-1T-1T-2T-1T-2T wasn't mentioned.
It really became her trademark move.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

It was Morris from Eteri's group. :shocked:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=B958exLmbWA

This was the one I was looking for. Just incredible! :shocked: