Is the triple loop disappearing as the second combo jump?

[Parksideprince]

I was so disappointed to not see any of the singles men or women attempted. I think it is so beautiful because there's no pause in the combination. When it's fully rotated, it's stunning. It almost makes me miss the Russian ladies. We really need to get our difficulty up.

 

[Mathman]

I especially miss the triple loop + triple loop combos. Tara Lipinski won the 1998 Olympic gold medal with it. Irina Sllutskaya won the 2005 world championship with it.

The IJS discourages this combination because the point total favors doing two Lutzes and two flips, so the skater cannot also do two loops, whether in combination or not. If you did 3Lz+3Lo and then 3Flip+3Lo you give away points.

 

[4everchan]

Cha does 3lz-3lo
Rakic does 3lo-3lo

The ISU doesn't discourage the Flip/ Lutz + loop combo... I am not sure what you are implying @Mathman

What is happening for sure however is that it's hard to rotate fully a +3loop in a combo so the tech panel are going to hunt you down with any underrotation. It's also a physical matter. Very hard on the hips.

 

[Mathman]

Cha does 3lz-3lo
Rakic does 3lo-3lo

The ISU doesn't discourage the Flip/ Lutz + loop combo... I am not sure what you are implying @Mathman

To maximize your points under the IJS while observing the Zayak restrictions, you have to do something like

3Lz
3Lz in combinatiion
3F
3F inn combination.

So you can't do 3Lz+3Lz and also you can't do both 3Lz+3Lo and 3F+3Lo without giving away points.

You could do 3L+3Lo and 3F+3T, though, along with solo 3Lz and solo 3F. But then you couldn't also do solo 3Lo.

I was thinking mainly of women. Men with quads have more options.

 

[Jeanie19]

Mao Asada had a beautiful 3F3Lo and Evgenia Medvedeva 3S3Lo.

I love the 3loop solo jump, its a beautiful jump.

 

[TontoK]

In terms of base value, there are probably two objectives.

Maximize the base value.
Minimize the risk to maximize the base value.

A 3F-3T combo plus a solo 3L has the same base value as a 3F-3L combo plus a solo 3T.

One of those combos is objective harder, IMO, and more subject to UR and GOE deductions.

 

[4everchan]

To maximize your points under the IJS while observing the Zayak restrictions, you have to do something like

3Lz
3Lz in combinatiion
3F
3F inn combination.

So you can't do 3Lz+3Lz and also you can't do both 3Lz+3Lo and 3F+3Lo without giving away points.

You could do 3L+3Lo and 3F+3T, though, along with solo 3Lz and solo 3F. But then you couldn't also do solo 3Lo.

I was thinking mainly of women. Men with quads have more options.

Fine. ONLY if you are talking about only the women LP

But in the Women SP

3lz-3loop, 2a or 3a and 3f is better than 3lz-3t

and for men, of course, the men do not need to do a solo loop jump as they have more options...

So in my kind of mathematical mind, the ISU is not penalizing the loop combos since they are advantageous in 3 out of 4 programs.

 

[AlexBreeze]

But in the Women SP

3lz-3loop, 2a or 3a and 3f is better than 3lz-3t

The difference in the base value is negligible, and it's difficult to fulfill GOE bullets with +3Lo. Therefore, performing this combo doesn't make much sense.

 

[TontoK]

Fine. ONLY if you are talking about only the women LP

But in the Women SP

3lz-3loop, 2a or 3a and 3f is better than 3lz-3t

and for men, of course, the men do not need to do a solo loop jump as they have more options...

So in my kind of mathematical mind, the ISU is not penalizing the loop combos since they are advantageous in 3 out of 4 programs.

I wasn't talking about either in particular, although I can see how you might think that.

I was simply adding the base values to illustrate why the /3L combination was pretty rare. There are easier ways to maximize base value.

Another example: Compare a program that includes a 3Z/3T combo plus a solo 2A... a skater could mix and match those jumps and have the same base value by doing a 2A/3T combo and a solo 3Z. And, in fact, a lot of skaters do this.

Edit: Sorry, I misread this post as a reply to mine above. I'll leave it anyway.

 

[mrrice]

I think it's a physical matter as well. It is so hard on the hips and hip flexor muscles. I did see Irina land several of them at World's in 2001 and they are spectacular when landed cleanly.

 

[Weathergal]

I think we had thread - or part of a thread - talking about who did/does the +3Lo combo, but I'm not sure... Anyway I love a good +3Lo combo as well. Some other ones not yet mentioned here are Alex Krasnozhon - he did a 3F + 3Lo that I really liked.

Alina Zagitova did a 3Lz +3Lo, and I think Alexandra Trusova did briefly as well. I also recall Bradie Tennell doing one briefly.

Petr Gummenik also has a nice 3Lz +3Lo.

 

[4everchan]

Isabeau also did it a couple times.

 

[4everchan]

The difference in the base value is negligible, and it's difficult to fulfill GOE bullets with +3Lo. Therefore, performing this combo doesn't make much sense.

I'm aware of this. But we need to assume that some people could do them better... not that they will get negative goe. This is why I have always advocated for a different way to score harder combos.

 

[Skater Boy]

You have to do what is beneficial to your score. A triple loop as the second jump is worth more than a triple toe but it is also prone to underrotation and harder for most to get great Goe's so it may be better to do the easier combo and do it well and fully rotated.

 

[TontoK]

I think we had thread - or part of a thread - talking about who did/does the +3Lo combo, but I'm not sure... Anyway I love a good +3Lo combo as well. Some other ones not yet mentioned here are Alex Krasnozhon - he did a 3F + 3Lo that I really liked.

Alina Zagitova did a 3Lz +3Lo, and I think Alexandra Trusova did briefly as well. I also recall Bradie Tennell doing one briefly.

Petr Gummenik also has a nice 3Lz +3Lo.

In addition to the /3Lo combo, I like the simpler +2T+2Lo combo that made the three jump combo frequently in the early days of IJS.

I just think they're pretty when done well, and they seem to be a crowd-pleaser with that pleasant skipping sensation.

A particular lady did that recently, but I can't think who it was. Nowadays, most of the three jump combos are of the Eu variety so they can tack on that 3S at the end and not have to do it as a standalone jump. I'm not as big a fan of those, particularly those that feature a clumsy and inelegant Eu. I want to see that Eu combo resemble skipping a rock across a pond.

 

[4everchan]

In addition to the /3Lo combo, I like the simpler +2T+2Lo combo that made the three jump combo frequently in the early days of IJS.

I just think they're pretty when done well, and they seem to be a crowd-pleaser with that pleasant skipping sensation.

A particular lady did that recently, but I can't think who it was. Nowadays, most of the three jump combos are of the Eu variety so they can tack on that 3S at the end and not have to do it as a standalone jump. I'm not as big a fan of those, particularly those that feature a clumsy and inelegant Eu. I want to see that Eu combo resemble skipping a rock across a pond.

Some Canadian women did it at Nationals. Sara-Maude is one of them.

 

[Mathman]

I want to see that Eu combo resemble skipping a rock across a pond.

An elegant metaphor. That's just what the +2Lo+2T looks like. The trouble with the Euler is that skaters usually take a big step and plop down hard instead of "skimming."

 

[4everchan]

An elegant metaphor. That's just what the +2Lo+2T looks like. The trouble with the Euler is that skaters usually take a big step and plop down hard instead of "skimming."

a very nice Euler combo can be beautiful... but yeah.. .most aren't

 

[TontoK]

An elegant metaphor. That's just what the +2Lo+2T looks like. The trouble with the Euler is that skaters usually take a big step and plop down hard instead of "skimming."

For all her beautiful qualities, Isabeau has an ugly Eu combo. In her defense, she's not the only one. Many of them look as though the skater stepped out of the first jump rather than jump-bouncing into the Eu.

 

[icetug]

It almost makes me miss the Russian ladies. We really need to get our difficulty up.

But as I can see from RusNats protocols there is only one Russian woman who jumps +3Lo nowadays... In addition she got negative GOE in both programs for her 3F+3Lo.
At the end of the day we should be happy that Jun is willing to jump this combination and does it quite well.