Is the triple loop disappearing as the second combo jump?

[Weathergal]

In addition to the /3Lo combo, I like the simpler +2T+2Lo combo that made the three jump combo frequently in the early days of IJS.

I just think they're pretty when done well, and they seem to be a crowd-pleaser with that pleasant skipping sensation.

A particular lady did that recently, but I can't think who it was. Nowadays, most of the three jump combos are of the Eu variety so they can tack on that 3S at the end and not have to do it as a standalone jump. I'm not as big a fan of those, particularly those that feature a clumsy and inelegant Eu. I want to see that Eu combo resemble skipping a rock across a pond.

I agree with all of this!

 

[sjchilly]

Yuna Aoki does Triple Loop Triple Loop in both her short and long programs this year.

 

[ladyjane]

So pleasing to the eye....I will never understand the relatively low BV. And don't try to explain it to me. I just wish to see more of them!

 

[Mathematician]

It disappeared with the Russian ladies for a little bit too, but this season made a huge comeback. Lots of girls doing it in both seniors and junior, including those who arent really fighting for medals even at stages, though their execution can be quite rough. There are a few who can really do it properly. Its quite nice.

 

[DancingCactus]

I'm also happy with a 2Lo at the end, i just looks more beautiful than a 3T. Just for aesthetic reasons.
But since the jump does seem to be harder on the hips (didn't Matteo get injured because of the 4Lo or did I make that up in my mind?), maybe it's for the best...

 

[skatesofgold]

Anna Shcherbakova did triple lutz-triple loop in her long program, although she did it in both programs until the middle of the 2021-2022 season because she struggled with in in the short early in the season.

At Europeans, Jade Hovine attempted a triple flip-triple loop in her short. I know she got some calls on it.

 

[TT_Fin]

There are some less known and some junior skaters who have jumped 3lz-3lo clean in a competition.

 

[Jontor]

I especially miss the triple loop + triple loop combos. Tara Lipinski won the 1998 Olympic gold medal with it. Irina Sllutskaya won the 2005 world championship with it.

The IJS discourages this combination because the point total favors doing two Lutzes and two flips, so the skater cannot also do two loops, whether in combination or not. If you did 3Lz+3Lo and then 3Flip+3Lo you give away points.

Yes, I remember Elizaveta Nugumanova did, for some reason, always 3Lo+3Lo in her short programs. But they were always deemed underroted.

It is a cool combo though.

 

[Jontor]

A 3F-3T combo plus a solo 3L has the same base value as a 3F-3L combo plus a solo 3T.

Yes, the base value is the same, but you actually lose points by doing 3F-3Lo as you just get GOE on the most valuable jump. So if you do 3F-3Lo and a solo 3T, you get GOE on the 3F and the 3T.
So it is better to do a 3F-3T and a solo 3Lo so get GOE on the 3F and the 3Lo. And besides, the 3F-3T is much easier and you don't risk the UR that sometimes come with Loop combos.

 

[Jontor]

I think the main reason why 3Lo combos are disappearing is because they changed the rules for sequences.

Nowadays, you have many more options to do combos with a 2A.

It also means that you don't even have to do a 3+3 combo to get all the 7 triples in a long program anymore. IIRC Ava Marie Ziegler last season used to do 3Lz+2A+2A then two other triples with a double jump. So no 3+3s.

 

[Mathman]

Yes, the base value is the same, but you actually lose points by doing 3F-3Lo as you just get GOE on the most valuable jump. So if you do 3F-3Lo and a solo 3T, you get GOE on the 3F and the 3T.

It seems like it could go either way. If you get negative GOE instead of positive, then all the analysis is reversed.

 

[Jontor]

There is a Russian girl (I always used to call her the Loop-combo-girl), Sophia Chaplygina. She always does +3Lo combos. I think @AlexBreeze mentioned before that it is much easier for her to do +3Lo combos. For some reason.

 

[AlexBreeze]

There is a Russian girl (I always used to call her the Loop-combo-girl), Sophia Chaplygina. She always does +3Lo combos. I think @AlexBreeze mentioned before that it is much easier for her to do +3Lo combos. For some reason.

I think she mentioned that she has no +3T at all. And at nationals she managed to add a rotated 3Lo after a bad landing on the first jump that is usually impossible for this combination. And it is one of the reasons this combination is considered difficult.

I think for Vetlugin it's also easier to do +3Los.

 

[TontoK]

I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that base value should be scaled a bit higher for more difficult back-ends.

I'm a believer in risk/reward, so if a back-end loop is more subject to GOE reductions and so forth, then perhaps a modest bonus to the combination base value might be in order. The theology isn't entirely novel - we already add a bonus to second half jumping passes.

 

[TontoK]

I love the 3loop solo jump, its a beautiful jump.

Me, too! I like the "swoopy" feel to a well-executed loop. No jarring toe-pick. Entering and exiting the jump on the same edge. It's just cool.

But it has to have flow on the exit! Not a fan of those loops that sort of come straight down. I want to be taken on a ride, not dropped off a ledge, if that makes sense.

And just to demonstrate how illogical my thinking can be, my least favorite jump is the salchow. Yes, it's an edge jump, but not nearly as cool as the loop. And to further demonstrate my all-over-the-board thinking, I really DO like throw salchow in a pairs program, there's just something about the entry set-up. So you all can sort all that out on your own.

 

[Jontor]

I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that base value should be scaled a bit higher for more difficult back-ends.

I'm a believer in risk/reward, so if a back-end loop is more subject to GOE reductions and so forth, then perhaps a modest bonus to the combination base value might be in order. The theology isn't entirely novel - we already add a bonus to second half jumping passes.

Totally agree. A +3Lo is worth 0.7 more than a +3T. But the difficulty/risk is so much higher.

I also don't understand why you only get GOE on the higher valued jump in combos. Where's the logic in that?

 

[Jontor]

I think she mentioned that she has no +3T at all. And at nationals she managed to add a rotated 3Lo after a bad landing on the first jump that is usually impossible for this combination. And it is one of the reasons this combination is considered difficult.

I think for Vetlugin it's also easier to do +3Los.

Yes, Vetlugins +3Los are a thing of beauty (when he lands them).

I still think Zagitova's +3Los are the best in women. Even though Shcherbakova is my all time favourite skater, I wasn't a fan of her Loop combos. She was super consistent with them but they never had that running edge like Zagitovas. Shcherbakovas 3F+3Lo was better, but she only did them in juniors.

 

[Mathman]

I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that base value should be scaled a bit higher for more difficult back-ends.

I think that the original idea was that a triple-triple might be harder than doing the same two jumps separately, but this was overridden by the opportunity to squeeze an extra triple jump into your program. Giving a bonus for doing a hard triple-triple AND also total base-value credit for the extra triple, that was kind of double-dipping.

Sort of like getting big base value for a quad AND then also getting automatic positive GOE for a quad of average quality.

In general if base values were given for every possible variation of jump combos based on perceived difficulty,, that would result in a Scale of Values with thousands of entries (instead of the present hundreds, what with <s,e's, etc. Maybe this isn't a problem, though, because all that is handled by the computer.

 

[Jontor]

Sometimes I think it is very simple. The ISU, the judges, the coaches are all very artistic people. That's why they are all involved in figure skating to begin with.

However, artistic people are sometimes not that good when it comes to numbers. So when it comes down to the nitty gritty on how to score things fairly, they are just not the right people....

 

[gkelly]

In general if base values were given for every possible variation of jump combos based on perceived difficulty,, that would result in a Scale of Values with thousands of entries (instead of the present hundreds, what with <s,e's, etc. Maybe this isn't a problem, though, because all that is handled by the computer.

True.

It wouldn't be quite so unwieldy to say, for example, that the second (or third) jump in a true combination should get a base value multiplier of 1.1 or 1.2.

But not for a sequence with a step forward to an axel jump, and possibly not if there is an Euler in between.