ISU proposals: Jumps, spin for 2024-25

[Diana Delafield]

Edit: Just picked a random video of Surya's to see what you were referring to and apparently I couldn't have picked a worse one. On a side note - I didn't expect to see Kerrigan caught on camera with those facial expressions. Do you have a favorite video of Surya's you can share? I like her athleticism.

Had to switch over to Chrome to see this. Firefox doesn't play all videos on my computer. That was actually a short run-up to jumps for Surya, who often did rink-length straight glides on almost a flat, while the suspense built as you waited, with no edge clues, to see which jump it was going to be. She'd come to skating from gymnastics, so her jumps were like highlights in a gymnast's tumbling pass, done in a straight line diagonally across a mat.

Can't suggest any one performance, though. I've watched too many competitions over about 50 years, on TV and from behind the boards or up in the seats left for the competitors in other events. Very few specific performances stick in my mind, not ones where I can remember what competition in what year anyway.

 

[4everchan]

Well.. if you are curious about Surya and actually, she was the one who put the backflip back into skating as an illegal move

Didier... inventing the story.... so now... we have to wonder where Adam was born (just kidding)

and you will get to see here... her trademark lutz... twice. her givenchy dress... her mom... and even Nancy.

 

[Mathman]

Surya Bonaly was certainly one of a kind. At 1990 Europeans free skate she attenpted a quad Salchow AND a quad toe (but without success on either). In 1993 she had a 3S+eulerl+3t combination -- [edit --as linked above by 4everchan in a performance that highlights both her strengths and her weaknesses as a skater] -- and in 1994 she added a third triple to the combo (but finished second at Worlds to the elegance of Oksana Baiul and and then to to Yuka "whispering blades" Sato.

Trained as a gymnast, the back flip was trivial for her and she could also jump straight up into a triple from almost a dead stand-atill (for which she was both praised and criticized). She skated bare-legged because she couldn't find tights that complemented her skin tone. The ISU objected, so she started wearing socks that came up over the outside of her boots (not sure what that accomplished except to look funny, but she could claim that she wasn't in violation of ISU costume rules.)

Still, despite winning 5 European golds and 3 world silvers, it was as a pro that she really came into her own. She was for many years part of the supporting cast -- the guts and glue -- of U.S. Champions on Ice, (The "crew" also included Victor Pretrenko, the accrobats Besedin and Polishchuk, and the hula hoop girl Irina Grigorian.) Surya never passed up a chance to perform or compete in pro competitions, always to great acclaim.

 

[4everchan]

Surya Bonaly was certainly one of a kind. At 1990 Europeans free skate she attenpted a quad Salchow AND a quad toe (but without success on either). In 1993 she had a 3S+eulerl+3t combination -- edit --as linked above by 4everchan in a performance that highlights both her strengths and her weaknesses as a skater -- and in 1994 she added a third triple to the combo (but finished second at Worlds to the elegance of Oksana Baiul and and then to to Yuka "whispering blades" Sato.

Trained as a gymnast the back flip was trivial for her and she could also jump straight up into a triple from almost a dead stand-atill (for which she was both praised and criticized). She skated bare-legged because she couldn't find tights that complemented her skin tone. The ISU objected, so she started wearing socks that came up over the outside of her boots (not sure what that accomplished except to look funny, but she could claim that she wasn't in violation of ISU costume rules.)

Still, despite winning 5 European golds and 3 world silvers, it was as a pro that she really came into her own. She was for many years part of the supporting cast -- the guts and glue -- of U.S. Champions on Ice, (The "crew" also included Victor Pretrenko, the accrobats Besedin and Polishchuk, and the hula hoop girl Irinba Grigorian. Surya never passed up a chance to perform or compete in pro competitions, always to great acclaim.

The combo was 3t-Eu-3s.

also, let's not forget the backlfip was landed on one foot combo with 3s
and that she refused to stand on the podium when she lost to the magical Yuka Sato.

That's when i started to like her a bit less I believed Sato was better and I don't like tantrums

 

[Diana Delafield]

The combo was 3t-Eu-3s.

also, let's not forget the backlfip was landed on one foot combo with 3s

That was after the backflip was declared illegal because it was being landed on two feet. Surya challenged that by proving she could land it on one foot. There was a scramble to rewrite the first ruling.

and that she refused to stand on the podium when she lost to the magical Yuka Sato.

That's when i started to like her a bit less I believed Sato was better and I don't like tantrums

Yes, that was pretty childish, yanking off her silver medal the instant it was put around her neck, and tearfully pouting.

 

[Arigato]

Well.. if you are curious about Surya and actually, she was the one who put the backflip back into skating as an illegal move

Didier... inventing the story.... so now... we have to wonder where Adam was born (just kidding)

and you will get to see here... her trademark lutz... twice. her givenchy dress... her mom... and even Nancy.

You always post something I find interesting but leaves me saying WTH? Who is this Didier guy? "We help along the stories?" He sounds like a car salesman. A lot of people want to know about Adam, no shocker there. Thanks for the info!

 

[4everchan]

That was after the backflip was declared illegal because it was being landed on two feet. Surya challenged that by proving she could land it on one foot. There was a scramble to rewrite the first ruling.

Yes, that was pretty childish, yanking off her silver medal the instant it was put around her neck, and tearfully pouting.

She certainly brought in the viewers though I still preferred my Josée and her gigantic lutz

 

[4everchan]

You always post something I find interesting but leaves me saying WTH? Who is this Didier guy? "We help along the stories?" He sounds like a car salesman. A lot of people want to know about Adam, no shocker there. Thanks for the info!

Didier Gailhaguet

Have fun googling who he is... and how much the entire skating world pretty much dislikes him...
He is responsible for a lot of drama and cheating.

 

[Mathman]

... and that she refused to stand on the podium when she lost to the magical Yuka Sato.

That's when i started to like her a bit less I believed Sato was better and I don't like tantrums

Warning: Mathman OT anecdote ahead -- where is the eyes-glazing-over smiley when you need it?

I remember that competiton like it was yearterday. My wife and I were vacationing at a resprt that had an American Indian theme. A big donnybrook broke out among the guests (led by my wife -- I laid low) over the issue of cultural appropration, etc., etc. By the time the skating came on on, people were ready to get into it about Surya -- obvioudly the better athlete -- being discriminateed against because of her race, versus those who were transported by the graceful Japanese lady.

 

[4everchan]

Warbing: Mathman OT anecdote ahead -- where is the eyes-glazing-over smiley when you need it?

I remember that competiton like it was yearterday. My wife and I were vacationing at a resprt that had an Americabn Indian theme. A big donnybrook broke out among the guests (led by my wife -- I laid low) over the issue of cultural appropration, etc., etc. By the time the skating came on on, people were ready to get into it about Surya -- obvioudly the better athlete -- being discriminateed against because of her race, versus those who were transported by the graceful Japanese lady.

cultural appropriation and figure skating...

makes me cringe every time




Thankfully, i have the cure for it

 

[Mathman]

Yes, that was pretty childish, yanking off her silver medal the instant it was put around her neck, and tearfully pouting.

I thnik it was more frustration than pique, though. Like "What do I have to do around here to win this medal?" She had finished second at worlds to two skaters, Oksana Baiul and Yuka Sato, that she felt she could outjump with one hand tied behind her back (should this be a bullet point for GOE?) -- and it was destined to happen again, with Lu Chen in 1995.

 

[icewhite]

I'm already on a warning, so I should keep my head down, but is it possible to... stay on topic more often?
I often have to look at the threads' titles to remind myself what the topic was.

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

I'm already on a warning, so I should keep my head down, but is it possible to... stay on topic more often?
I often have to look at the threads' titles to remind myself what the topic was.

100x yes! The thread drifts lately have become a real nuisance.

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

Back on topic, a Ukrainian official has mentioned some more proposed changes discussed by the ISU technical committee during Worlds (emphasis added by me):

Anastasia Makarova, secretary of the UFSF:
"Our sport is once again on the verge of major changes. So far, this process is at the stage of discussion organised by the ISU technical committees, which took place during the World Championships. Most of the proposals concerned singles skating. In particular, it is proposed to make changes to the free skate program, removing one of the jumps and replacing one of the three levelled spins with a choreographic one. The latter element is also planned to be introduced in pairs skating, where they also want to see a choreographic lift. Another possible innovation is that if an athlete falls from a jump, extra points will not be deducted, the punishment will be only in the form of negative judges' marks, and if they fall in the program, outside of the elements, then a point or half a point will be deducted - how much exactly has not yet been decided. That is, there will be no double punishment.
Other proposals include a return to the qualification rounds and an increase in the age of juniors and advanced novices. There are a lot of changes, but they must still be approved by the ISU Congress in June this year.
At the same time, many experts are concerned about the fact that the new rules will be applied in the pre-Olympic year, when spots for the Olympic Games will be determined. However, the technical committees are now thinking about changing the selection criteria for the Olympics."

Personally, I'm in favour of increasing the age for juniors. That would be in line with what has already been done for seniors.

I'm baffled by what they want to accomplish with all the changes to the jumping content. If a skater regularly gets 0 to +1 GOE on their triples, they might as well go for the quads now, because without the mandatory 1 point deduction even with a fall the fully-rotated quad will be worth more than an "adequate" triple. Unless they also change base values again.

And I'm not convinced ISU wanting to change the selection criteria for the Olympics is entirely without ulterior motives...

 

[Magill]

Back on topic, a Ukrainian official has mentioned some more proposed changes discussed by the ISU technical committee during Worlds (emphasis added by me):

Anastasia Makarova, secretary of the UFSF:
"Our sport is once again on the verge of major changes. So far, this process is at the stage of discussion organised by the ISU technical committees, which took place during the World Championships. Most of the proposals concerned singles skating. In particular, it is proposed to make changes to the free skate program, removing one of the jumps and replacing one of the three levelled spins with a choreographic one. The latter element is also planned to be introduced in pairs skating, where they also want to see a choreographic lift. Another possible innovation is that if an athlete falls from a jump, extra points will not be deducted, the punishment will be only in the form of negative judges' marks, and if they fall in the program, outside of the elements, then a point or half a point will be deducted - how much exactly has not yet been decided. That is, there will be no double punishment.
Other proposals include a return to the qualification rounds and an increase in the age of juniors and advanced novices. There are a lot of changes, but they must still be approved by the ISU Congress in June this year.
At the same time, many experts are concerned about the fact that the new rules will be applied in the pre-Olympic year, when spots for the Olympic Games will be determined. However, the technical committees are now thinking about changing the selection criteria for the Olympics."

Personally, I'm in favour of increasing the age for juniors. That would be in line with what has already been done for seniors.

I'm baffled by what they want to accomplish with all the changes to the jumping content. If a skater regularly gets 0 to +1 GOE on their triples, they might as well go for the quads now, because without the mandatory 1 point deduction even with a fall the fully-rotated quad will be worth more than an "adequate" triple. Unless they also change base values again.

And I'm not convinced ISU wanting to change the selection criteria for the Olympics is entirely without ulterior motives...

Totally agree. Not deducting points for a fall, just leaving it to GOEs which we all know sometimes do, sometimes don't follow the rules, is just making sure quadsters have an upper hand, even if they actually do not perform, nor deliver their quads. All the pretty words about more balanced programs are just going down the drain if this change is introduced, sadly...

 

[icewhite]

Back on topic, a Ukrainian official has mentioned some more proposed changes discussed by the ISU technical committee during Worlds (emphasis added by me):

Anastasia Makarova, secretary of the UFSF:
"Our sport is once again on the verge of major changes. So far, this process is at the stage of discussion organised by the ISU technical committees, which took place during the World Championships. Most of the proposals concerned singles skating. In particular, it is proposed to make changes to the free skate program, removing one of the jumps and replacing one of the three levelled spins with a choreographic one. The latter element is also planned to be introduced in pairs skating, where they also want to see a choreographic lift. Another possible innovation is that if an athlete falls from a jump, extra points will not be deducted, the punishment will be only in the form of negative judges' marks, and if they fall in the program, outside of the elements, then a point or half a point will be deducted - how much exactly has not yet been decided. That is, there will be no double punishment.
Other proposals include a return to the qualification rounds and an increase in the age of juniors and advanced novices. There are a lot of changes, but they must still be approved by the ISU Congress in June this year.
At the same time, many experts are concerned about the fact that the new rules will be applied in the pre-Olympic year, when spots for the Olympic Games will be determined. However, the technical committees are now thinking about changing the selection criteria for the Olympics."

Personally, I'm in favour of increasing the age for juniors. That would be in line with what has already been done for seniors.

I'm baffled by what they want to accomplish with all the changes to the jumping content. If a skater regularly gets 0 to +1 GOE on their triples, they might as well go for the quads now, because without the mandatory 1 point deduction even with a fall the fully-rotated quad will be worth more than an "adequate" triple. Unless they also change base values again.

And I'm not convinced ISU wanting to change the selection criteria for the Olympics is entirely without ulterior motives...

I can't believe they want to take away the deduction. Do they want to see even more people going for quads who can't do them?

Not sure what that change in selection criteria is supposed to be about.

 

[4everchan]

I can't believe they want to take away the deduction. Do they want to see even more people going for quads who can't do them?

Not sure what that change in selection criteria is supposed to be about.

I would actually propose a minus 2 on falls on quads... (minus one on triples) because falls on quads give too many points already....

 

[ladyjane]

IIf a rule keeps one country, be it the US, Japan, Russia, Canada or the United Federation of Planets, from dominating in any discipline, that is not a bad thing. And certainly not the goal of any rule change.

Into this, and I'm not American!!!!!!! I'm from Venus.

 

[Mathman]

^ There is another point of view, though. Is it the job of the ISU to prevent (or to encourage) a country from rising to dominance in the sport? If the Neptunnians get tired of losing to the Venusians every year -- go out there beat them!

As for the propsed rule changes, I don't think that they will have any startling effect on the outcome of competitions. Some people will find ways to grab a couple of extra points, others will drop a couple. I hope that the ISU's motivation is to encourage coaches and choreographers to come up with really, really good programs rather than to reward or punish countries for being too good or too bad.

 

[Minz]

Like I’ve said before, I don’t like a lot these changes and I agree with some others that it’s way too last minute to make major changes in June that go into effect the next month (season technically starts July 1st).

However, I’d also like to see the official agenda first, since we don’t technically know if this is actually happening or not.