ISU proposals: Jumps, spin for 2024-25

[lariko]

Wow, Grassl. I wonder if he'll be back after the summer. Was there ever any update about him? To be honest, I lived in bliss this season with Frangi, Nik, and Matteo competing at the big championships.

My understanding is that he is docked for 2 seasons. So back in the Olympic year

 

[lariko]

To me. a program that had one 4LZ, one 4F, and one 4Lo would be even more fun.

Malinin could do this, and basically he already does, with his 4 single quads opener. with his arsenal and 6 jumping passes, he can probably avoid triples almost entirely, bringing in huge combos with double quads and 3A finishers given that his spins are great, he is going to outscore everyone by an even bigger margin, since they won't be able to match his numbers with 4 single jumps, even if they get 5 GoE on exploiting their 4S and 4T.

And yeah, I agree, creating rules to curb the jumpers is going to spectacularly backfire. They have to live with the idea that the best overall skater wins, and Brown ain't it.

 

[Mathman]

A jump preceded by telegraphing—which should negatively impact GOE if the rules are being followed—is suddenly construed as 'epic splendor'? Uh, no. It isn't. It's annoying and juniorish skating.

I have to admit that I have no problem with long set-ups, provided the skater includes some skating moves and presents the element well. In Ilia's program the first few seconds were not boring in the slightest, to me. I was not annoyed nor did I think to myself, what's that junior doing out there at the senior world championship?. On the conntrary, I was full of anticipation both for that element and for whatever might come after.

Back in the days when I was able to attend a lot of competitions in person, Todd Eldredge was one skater who had the well-prepared TA-DA opening jump choreography down to a science. Midori Ito, especially as a pro, also took her time with the opening triple Axel.

For ladies more genrally, this was an era when almost every skater, even world champions, had a suspicious Lutz edge. The rare exception was Elena Liashenko. (This was before the "short entry"technique came into vogue, which somewhat masks the problem.) Liashenko would ride that deep, secure, outside edge for the length of the arena as if to say, put THAT in your pipe and smoke it, losers! Bo-Yang Jin took it a step further. The entry edge on his quad Lutz actually deepened at the last instant, rather than becoming more shallow. (There was a notorious Internet troll haunting skating forums in those days who delighted in posting stop-frame videos comparing Jin's technique (complete with superimposed protractors measuring angles) with that of Russian ladies like Medvedeva and Zagitova -- those despicable flutzers -- off with their heads! )

 

[el henry]

Well, Jason is a better overall skater than Ilia. Cause revolutions in the air ain't skating. Talking strictly and only about blade to ice skills.

Do I think Jason will win a competition against someone with multiple quads? Nope. Am I crying in my beer because Jason will never win and other skaters win hahahahaha? Nope.

Would I like to see the scores reflect what the skaters actually put on the ice? Yep. Jason barely edging Ilia in PCS, (while still without a doubt not medaling) ain't it. Ilia should still win overall, by a country mile, even if the judging were fairly applied in PCS. So why not apply it accurately?

Any rule that brings evaluation of revolutions in the air more in alignment with blade to ice skills is 21st century, the future of skating, helps the progress of the sport, and OK in my book.

 

[4everchan]

my two cents : the new rules will not affect Ilia at all. And that's fine. But they could decide whether a guy like Lukas who has wonderful spins and brings a cool vibe places ahead a guy like Selevko or Shaidorov. I am all in for that. The rules should have an impact on "most" of the field" looking at the outlier is not useful IMHO. When looking at rules, it's better to look at similar content skater and see how they will work. Comparing Ilia to Jason isn't going to provide insight on how the new rules will be efficient.

 

[4everchan]

In the women's field, it will make things exciting. It will encourage 3/3 combos. It will discourage solo 2a jumps, especially those using it twice. Skaters with a nice triple Axel will have an advantage in the field but also skaters who can do good combos and even those with greater spins and steps. So to me, it looks like everyone who is very good at something can use the rule to its benefit

 

[Mathman]

If the ISU wanted to rig things in Malinin's favor they would limit the jumping passes to one. Ilia would do his quad Axel and everyone else -- wouldn't. Ilia wins every contest for two years, but loses the 2026 Olympics to Vlasislav Dikidzhi with a 'Tano quad Axel.

 

[cailuj365]

Ilia can do a Rippon quad axel. We saw it at one of the ice shows last month...

Here's the video:

https://x.com/TISocietyMedia/status/1759067008690516086?s=20

The first "regular" quad axel was a little UR, wonky landing. The second Rippon quad axel was perfect. This kid's jumping ability actually scares me.

 

[el henry]

I agree with previous posters that Ilia vs the world or Jason vs Anybody is a red herring.

These rules were not proposed to affect just one skater. Other rules proposed in the past were not designed to deter one country or one discipline. This tends to conspiracy theories for me, which are

The Lukas Britschgi example is a good one. I am in favor of rules that reward what Lukas does in his skates

 

[Arigato]

I have to admit that I have no problem with long set-ups, provided the skater includes some skating moves and presents the element well. In Ilia's program the first few seconds were not boring in the slightest, to me. I was not annoyed nor did I think to myself, what's that junior doing out there at the senior world championship?. On the conntrary, I was full of anticipation both for that element and for whatever might come after.

Are you talking about his FS? I just hit play on the video and that is not telegraphing to his 4A. So we are not even talking about the same thing. Not even close. Good thing I checked because I have yet to meet anyone who likes telegraphing, which looks like a Boeing 747 going down the runway in a straight line into a 3A. A kid in an early group did it the worst I have ever seen. I was shocked, it was so severe.

 

[Diana Delafield]

Are you talking about his FS? I just hit play on the video and that is not telegraphing to his 4A. So we are not even talking about the same thing. Not even close. Good thing I checked because I have yet to meet anyone who likes telegraphing, which looks like a Boeing 747 going down the runway in a straight line into a 3A. A kid in an early group did it the worst I have ever seen. I was shocked, it was so severe.

Surya Bonaly's specialty. For something big, like a triple Lutz, it was a straight diagonal line from one corner of the rink to the opposite corner at the far end.

 

[4everchan]

Surya Bonaly's specialty. For something big, like a triple Lutz, it was a straight diagonal line from one corner of the rink to the opposite corner at the far end.

Yup. I was just going to mention the old school Lutz
Loved it

 

[Arigato]

Surya Bonaly's specialty. For something big, like a triple Lutz, it was a straight diagonal line from one corner of the rink to the opposite corner at the far end.

I've been talking about telegraphing into Axel jumps. But since you brought up Lutz jumps, I don't like it when someone turns their head around and looks backward during a Lutz entry like they're afraid if they don't, they'll back into a parked car.

Edit: Just picked a random video of Surya's to see what you were referring to and apparently I couldn't have picked a worse one. On a side note - I didn't expect to see Kerrigan caught on camera with those facial expressions. Do you have a favorite video of Surya's you can share? I like her athleticism.

 

[Mathman]

Ilia can do a Rippon quad axel. We saw it at one of the ice shows last month.

Thanks for the clip.

OT , but it always seemed to me that Tanos were prettier than Rippons. Brian Boitano himself always made a good-faith attempt at this arm position:

https://dancer.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Benjamin_Arms_8.jpg

Skaters (especially ladies) who try it with both arms never seem to get close to this:

https://dancer.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Benjamin_Arms_9.jpg

(Although Ilia's in the clip, from what i can make out, looks nice to me.)

 

[TontoK]

I've been talking about telegraphing into Axel jumps. But since you brought up Lutz jumps, I don't like it when someone turns their head around and looks backward during a Lutz entry like they're afraid if they don't, they'll back into a parked car.

If we're griping about lutz jumps, then I have my two cents to add. I don't like the short entry where the skater is progressing in a straight line. It is not as pleasing as a long outside running edge entry.

 

[4everchan]

If we're griping about lutz jumps, then I have my two cents to add. I don't like the short entry where the skater is progressing in a straight line. It is not as pleasing as a long outside running edge entry.

Or the entry that looks like it is going to be a loop jump ... Bring back the long Lutz entries

 

[Mathman]

Are you talking about his FS? I just hit play on the video and that is not telegraphing to his 4A. So we are not even talking about the same thing.

Yeah, we seem to be using this term in different ways. One definition that seems to be in common use is just a lengthy set up. Another is an approach that is totally void of transitions. I suppose another might be that "telegraphing" ought to mean sending a clear message ahead of what element is coming (as contrasted with a jump that pops up unexpectedly out of nowhere).

I tried to search the ISU website for guidance, but was daunted in the navigation.

 

[Mathman]

.... since you brought up Lutz jumps, I don't like it when someone turns their head around and looks backward during a Lutz entry like they're afraid if they don't, they'll back into a parked car.

Midori Ito, 1991 worlds (warm-up followed by free skate) I can understand why a skater might want to qatch out for those cars.

Midori Ito ä¼è¤ ã¿ã©ã (JPN) - 1991 Worlds, Ladies' Original Program

Munich, GERMANY - 1991 World Figure Skating Championships, Ladies' Original Program - Despite miscalculating the take off of the triple Lutz for her jump com...

www.youtube.com

 

[Arigato]

Yeah, we seem to be using this term in different ways. One definition that seems to be in common use is just a lengthy set up. Another is an approach that is totally void of transitions. I suppose another might be that "telegraphing" ought to mean sending a clear message ahead of what element is coming (as contrasted with a jump that pops up unexpectedly out of nowhere).

I tried to search the ISU website for guidance, but was daunted in the navigation.

The bottom line is Ilia's 4A was fine. I think we can safely stop now.

 

[Diana Delafield]

I've been talking about telegraphing into Axel jumps. But since you brought up Lutz jumps, I don't like it when someone turns their head around and looks backward during a Lutz entry like they're afraid if they don't, they'll back into a parked car.

Love that analogy! To be fair, a skater who finds themselves in a rink narrower than they're used to, as in Montreal, really needs to do a shoulder check or they could crash into the boards (or land right off the ice, like Midori Ito when she went through the camera's open gate at the 1991 Worlds). Even just the ricochet from kicking the boards a glancing blow as you pass them too close at high speed can send you flying.

My favourite jump has always been the Axel because I like to see where I'm going and that the runway is clear for take-off. It makes my ballroom teacher grind his teeth when I keep habitually glancing over my shoulder while we're dancing among others having lessons or practising at the studio. "That's MY job!" he keeps saying.