Jason Brown | Page 841 | Golden Skate

Jason Brown

Bookseller

Final Flight
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Jason can help you with that: 😂

I see those details in that video and I watched and rewatched for months, but when the skaters get up to competition speed and we're watching the whole program, I can rarely concentrate on the takeoff to know what jump it is. I never skated, so I don't have a good feel for what those jumps look like. I finally gave up. I just watch the program and let the scoreboard tell me what the jump is. I am failure at jump spotting. I need to see them slo/mo. I consider it a personal failure.
 

Tavi...

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2014
I see those details in that video and I watched and rewatched for months, but when the skaters get up to competition speed and we're watching the whole program, I can rarely concentrate on the takeoff to know what jump it is. I never skated, so I don't have a good feel for what those jumps look like. I finally gave up. I just watch the program and let the scoreboard tell me what the jump is. I am failure at jump spotting. I need to see them slo/mo. I consider it a personal failure.
Oh goodness, don’t be so hard on yourself! All of us have stuff that comes more easily and stuff that’s harder for us to learn. And we only have a limited amount of time, energy, and concentration to learn new things. So really, don’t feel like it’s a personal failure if it’s tough for you to identify jumps!

If it is something you want to learn, though, I’m sure you can do it. I think it’s hard, especially at the beginning, to try to identify jumps by looking at which foot/edge they’re taking off from. Try focusing more on the approaches.

The way I started was by looking at one of Jason’s SP clips and a protocol for that competition. For example, here’s his Nats 2020 SP and protocol:



The protocol tells you what jumps he’s going to do, in what order. For Jason, in the past few seasons it’s always 3F, 3A, and 3Z-3T, in that order. Then you can look at the SP clip (I turn down the commentary bc it’s distracting) and say, okay, here’s the first jump so I know it’s a 3F. What does it look like? Don’t try to look at his feet. Look at his entrance and just try to get an impression. For this jump he does kind of a long approach with a lot of different steps. Then right before the jump you’ll notice he’s on one foot and he turns back, front, back - to me it almost looks like a rocking movement- and takes off into the jump. Rewind it and look at it a few times. Don’t try to figure out how many steps or anything because those change from program to program. Just try to get an impression of the “rocking” movements before the takeoff, because Jason almost always uses that entry for his solo 3F. It’s not a fool proof method because there are different entries - but Jason has been pretty consistent with this one for the solo 3F in the SP.

Next jump is the 3A which is usually pretty easy to recognize because it’s the only jump that takes off forwards.

For the 3Z-3T, he has his arm extended straight backwards and he makes kind of a twisting motion before he takes off.

Those are my impressions of his jumps, they might look different to you. But once you’ve watched that program a few times, try looking at this year’s short program. Do the jumps look kind of the same? Different? Why?

Anyway, that’s how I’d approach it. I’d stick with the SP until I kind of got the hang of those jumps and then maybe I’d look at the long. Identifying jumps in a FS is more complicated because there are more jumps/combos, they’re not always in the same order, and sometimes he switches out jumps (for example for awhile he was trying 4T and then he switched it to 4S. And sometimes he’ll use different entries. But you can kind of still go through the same process. After awhile, you may not recognize every single jump, but you’ll recognize a lot of them.

Hope that helps!
 

Bookseller

Final Flight
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That's a good approach. I can recognize an axel, so I've got that down. I'll work on the others. I think if I understood the mechanics of the jumps better, it would be easier to see. And, as you pointed out, the layout of his short program has been pretty consistent. Those jumps are so fast in competition, but you can see the approach and the exits pretty well. I'll just keep trying! I just feel like I should know what they look like. It's even harder when you're watching on site. I'm good at spotting under-rotations, though!
 

sdwyer52

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 19, 2019

sdwyer52

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 19, 2019
Ohhhh I don’t know how I feel about a quad attempt in the SP 🥴 We all know he can score highly in the short without it, but the risk of being absolutely BURIED if he fails is so high... Also, Sinnerman is so incredible, I feel like a fall could really impact the performance of it. Obviously I want Jason to do what makes him feel best, and maybe he feels more confident about it if he’s willing to put in the SP or has decided to just go all guns blazing for the Olympics season, but man, this makes me anxious!!
He will be fine. He will go all out and get it done. Remember, leaving the quads out early in his career wasn’t good for him. I wish he could train with Ro all the time.
 
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el henry

Fangirl of men’s spirals and split jumps
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He will be fine. He will go all out and get it done. Remember, leaving the quads out early in his career wasn’t good for him. I wish he could train with Ro all the time.

I wish he could train with Ro all the time just to hear Ro's commentary, :biggrin:but he used to train with Ro full time when he was with Kori. I think Brian and Tracy have given him second life.

And Jason never left the quads out early in his career as a strategy, he left them out because he couldn't do them, even practicing them every single day. As Tavi pointed out, he has said, when I can do them consistently, you will see them.

I suppose there is an argument that he should have thrown them in more, even if UR or falling, but that wouldn't be Jason :)
 

Bookseller

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I watched the show and Jason was great. The performances were amazing.
He did a very good job! I would have enjoyed the discussion, but $125 would be reckless spending of scarce resources. I'm hoping someone did see it and will report back at some point. I made a token donation and enjoyed the show. Loved the clip of Jason and the choreo by Kaitlyn and the Ice Theater skaters are great! Those were really fun to watch.
 

Bookseller

Final Flight
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He will be fine. He will go all out and get it done. Remember, leaving the quads out early in his career wasn’t good for him. I wish he could train with Ro all the time.
I have confidence that he will succeed, land those quads and delivery great programs. He's got to "skate dumb" as they say and just do what he does in training. When he gets to that point, he'll prevail.
 

Bookseller

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I wish he could train with Ro all the time just to hear Ro's commentary, :biggrin:but he used to train with Ro full time when he was with Kori. I think Brian and Tracy have given him second life.

And Jason never left the quads out early in his career as a strategy, he left them out because he couldn't do them, even practicing them every single day. As Tavi pointed out, he has said, when I can do them consistently, you will see them.

I suppose there is an argument that he should have thrown them in more, even if UR or falling, but that wouldn't be Jason :)
They tried that approach. I watched the practice on the day of 2018 Nats FS. He was not landing the quads in practice. He fell every time. I really hoped he would just skate that program and not try them. But he went for it, fell really hard, blew the 3A, lost his confidence, and missed making the team. He grieved and went looking for a new coach. He's learned to handle things better now. He's clearly doing those jumps in practice now, even competition practice. They are coming. Tracy and Brian have definitely made him a better skater, and he was great to begin with. I think we'll be seeing better quads this year. Even the guys who have quads (and the ladies too!) fall on them. He's not falling now. He's landing. He has to attend to the details now. He can do them. The only reason he gets flack for it is A. He's been around a long time and B. He's a top skater and top skaters do quads now. He wants to do them. He will do them. He's not beating himself up about it anymore. That is what Tracy and Brian have done for him. He's not beating himself up. He just keeps getting better.
 

sdwyer52

Rinkside
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Oct 19, 2019
I wish he could train with Ro all the time just to hear Ro's commentary, :biggrin:but he used to train with Ro full time when he was with Kori. I think Brian and Tracy have given him second life.

And Jason never left the quads out early in his career as a strategy, he left them out because he couldn't do them, even practicing them every single day. As Tavi pointed out, he has said, when I can do them consistently, you will see them.

I suppose there is an argument that he should have thrown them in more, even if UR or falling, but that wouldn't be Jason :)
I disagree about his quad issue. Kori was in charge of his content - not Rohene. Ro was his choreographer not coach. After having a couple of injuries while the quads were going wild, he missed out.

I love what has happened since Jason has been in Toronto. I think all is going to be fine and I want to see him at the Olympics.
 
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el henry

Fangirl of men’s spirals and split jumps
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I disagree about his quad issue. Kori was in charge of his content - not Rohene. Ro was his choreographer not coach. After having a couple of injuries while the quads were going wild, he missed out.

I love what has happened since Jason has been in Toronto. I think all is going to be fine and I want to see him at the Olympics.
I'm truly confused though, because Jason had quads in his program, as early as 2016. The infamous one at SA that we as Jason fans all know he landed.:biggrin:

As far back as 2015 Kori and Jason knew darn well he needed to put quads in his program, and they were always contemplated and usually listed. Jason wasn't landing them. How could Kori put something in a program that Jason couldn't do:scratch2:

Now, there is an argument to be made that Kori was not the best teacher of quads. But I have no doubt that nothing would have made Kori happier than for Jason to start landing 4Ts and 4Ss so she could start listing "4"s on those planned content sheets.

But I could be totally misunderstanding you. In any case, I think we are all happy Jason is at TCC (or will be soon ;) ).
 

Tavi...

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2014
Jason himself has said in interviews that by 2018 nationals, he was pretty much barely hanging on and had lost almost all confidence in his skating. So I wouldn’t judge what he was then capable of doing based on what you saw in practice there. There is video of him landing decent 4Ts in practice at 2017 Worlds. See here, for example:


That was after his injury, and after having gone back to work with Frank Carroll on his jumps.

I do think Jason made the right choice to move to TCC and probably should have done so sooner. But it’s not just the jump technique that has improved: it’s that he’s put himself back together as a much stronger person.

ETA: el henry is right that Jason worked a lot with Ro while he was at 7K. Ro was on staff full time there for several years and did not just do choreography. A lot of stuff Jason is capable of technically is because Ro pushed him to do it - a perfect example is Jason’s gorgeous spiral - take a look at what it originally looked like in Piano at 2016 Skate America and compare to what he does today.
 
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Bookseller

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Jason has said that he knew that he had to make a coaching change before 2018, but with his eyes set on the Olympic team and knowing that it takes a while to adjust to a new coach, he decided to stay the course until after the 2018 Olympics. Failing to make the team made the coaching change critical. He was also struggling with whether or not to keep skating competitively after the 2018 Nats. It was pretty clear to his fans by 2017 that he needed to make a coaching change. But he was still skating well and that helped to obscure the obvious.

But that day, the 2nd place skate by Ross Miner was looming over his head and Vince had a decent skate and Adam put the pressure on in the short. So Jason was under pressure when it came to the FS. I'm sure that he was landing quads in practice, but not that day and not at that event. It all fell apart in the FS. It was devastating to watch at the time and I'll never watch that skate again, but long term it was the best thing that could have happened to him. His mindset changed, he earned himself a great coaching situation and he's had 3 interesting and productive years of training and competition. He's grown up, become an artist and a great technical skater, despite the not so stellar quads.

But on that day, I still think he would have been better off not attempting that quad. It wasn't there that day.

Jason is a perfect example of turning lemons into lemonade. That skate no longer matters. He's moved on. His confidence has grown and so has his skill. I can't wait to see what he does this season!
 

kan01

On the Ice
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Dec 15, 2019
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Romania
Seeing he's planning a quad salchow in the short, I can kinda see him including a 4S and a 4T in the long if the 4T will be as good as the 4S in practice. I don't know how having an axel as the fourth jump will turn out for him though.
 

noskates

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 11, 2012
While I think Kori was a great coach for the beginner Jason, at some point even she must have realized that she was out of her depth with him and that he needed to move on. Would it have made a difference had he left her much earlier? Who knows! But clearly his move to TCC has made a huge difference so one can only surmise an earlier move would have been good for him. It may end up that Jason's legendary contribution to figure skating will be pushing other men to improve their presentation skills and not just be jumping beans. The more I watch Jason and skaters like Kevin Aymoz and even Camden Pulkinen, I have less tolerance for the men who just twiddle twaddle their way between jumps and don't care about how they present their programs. We're all wishing Jason could get "that quad" but quite frankly, he needs more than one quad and he really needs them in both the short and free. As it is, he needs to get help from other skaters to medal. Nathan is a given. If by some chance Vincent manages to put it all together and one of the up and comers skates clean, Jason sadly won't be going to the Olympics. I hate that there is so much emphasis on quads (oh wait, how many times have I said that???)
 

Tavi...

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2014
So while I agree that there’s no guarantee Jason will make the team this year (see 2018 ☹️) I don’t think it’s quite as simple as one of the up and comers having a great skate at Nats and being selected over him because quads (see again 2018, Adam over Ross). Unless they change things this time due to the pandemic,“body of work” will be taken into account in making the selections.

In 2018, Jason’s problem was that in addition to bombing his FS at Nats and ending up 6th, he had looked shaky all season. And he looked particularly shaky at his last two comps before Nats - GPF and NHK. That outweighed his strong showing at 2017 Worlds.

As of now, we don’t know what kind of season there will be in 2021-22. If summer comps, challengers, and the GP are all disrupted, the panel may think it’s not fair to consider body of work, and may just go top 3 at Nats. I guess time will tell. But one thing to remember is how highly Jason scored at Nats in 2020 without a fully rotated quad (about 292) - I could be wrong but I don’t think anyone else besides Nathan has ever scored that high, including Vincent. So I really think what he needs to do this year depends on a lot of stuff.

Since we have been talking about whether Jason should have left Kori sooner, I thought now might be an interesting time to go back to the retrospective we started about a year ago but never finished, but this time we could focus on his year by year progression since the 2014 Olympic season to now. I thought we could look first at all the SP and then all the FS. Since a lot of programs have been pulled off YouTube, I thought maybe we could just look at one SP and one FS for each season. But if anyone wants to post additional versions, that’s totally fine! So to begin:

In 2013/14, his SP was Prince, Question of U. Here’s my favorite version, from 2013 TEB (ie GP France):

 

Apple1078

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 6, 2020
If Jason remains as consistent as he's been in previous seasons + places top 4 at USNats, I can't imagine a scenario where the USFS doesn't send him. :)

Vincent obviously has a lot of technical fire power but his SP in Stockholm didn't help his body of work (and he wasn't super consistent during his first semester at Brown either) though he tends to be great at USNats.

If Yaro skates a clean SP and FS at USNats, he has the potential to place 2nd after Nathan (which was also their goal at USNats 2021 though he placed 4th) but if you go back and look at his performances throughout the last years, he's not really consistent either.

I think there's an argument to be made that the only really consistent US men in this quad are Nathan and Jason. :) If they can remain consistent (obviously, Nathan has already earned a spot), it will be very hard for the USFS not to send them.
 
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el henry

Fangirl of men’s spirals and split jumps
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Oh yay, old time Jason programs again. And the Question of U: I will look forward to watching that later today:clap:

And as the old sports saying goes, I think this year Jason will control his destiny. He is coming off a high at Worlds and WTT, back to being Mr. Consistency. He has programs he loves. He is trying quads with confidence and not just throwing it out there because "they" are pressuring him.

In 2018, as was pointed out above, Jason's failure to make the Oly team wasn't because he skated his best and some new young guy scored with multiple quads, but because he skated far from his best. I think (hope, pray:pray:) that his head is in a better space this year. And that he can show what he can do.:)
 
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