Johnny Weir Robbed Big Time

[kareliz]

Johnny's victory

I agree that Johnny should have won. I was so disappointed. I understand the COP reasons, but the big picture impression of Johnny's skate was smooth control, gorgeous landings, subtle musicality, while Evan flailed about. I actually like Evan's skating, too, but not when he is so wild and out of control. The wonky landings really detracted from any kind of artistic impression.

I agree with the poster who said that things will be judged differently by an international panel. I hope that Johnny improves the level on his straight line footwork, does all his planned combos, and just comes out fighting for worlds.

He has now proven to himself, maybe for the first time, that he really can perform well under pressure and compete at the top level. That is his real victory. Going for the quad combo was another victory. I think this performance will build his confidence and fuel his desire to train hard and do his best at worlds.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

It's just an opinion, but neither of them got to me. Psuedo machismo fromEvan and Je ne sais quoi from Johnny. They have done better and the tie was fitting.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

Joe, what was the feeling in the arena? Did the live audience seem upset by the outcome?

 

[mskater93]

And hence why IJS sucks - the sum of parts is greater than the impression of the whole.

Holistically, Johnny would have won. On sum of parts, Evan wins.

 

[GoldMedalist]

On sum of parts, Evan wins.

He doesn't, though. From the perspective of a non-idiot.

 

[georgia]

In my opinion Johnny won. I talked to a few National judges and one high rucking International judge about the result. They were all of the opinion that Mr Weir, as they called him, had out skated Evan. They blamed the new judging system, and they claimed it will take time for the judges to figured it out.
They mention also, how large was the point difference after the short program, in the ladies event. They thought the 10 points difference was really high.
I told them, that in my opinion, that's the reason the sport is losing fans.
If they can't protect their athletes, then who will.
I am really disappointed and sad for Johnny.

 

[76olympics]

I am going to have to say that I liked both Ryan Bradley and Jeremy Abbott more than the top three. I liked their style, their music, .....nearly everything more.

I think Johnny and Evan would have done better to do the "Kwan" when it comes to the off ice rivalry stuff. I think all of us can figure out that they don't socialize off the ice. It just looks petty to dramatize that. I was tired of Yagudin and Plushenko doing this as well. Show me your stuff on the ice! All of that is my opinon and I know I am in the lonesome corner!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Joe, what was the feeling in the arena? Did the live audience seem upset by the outcome?

No the local papers were stressing the rivalry and so the locals believed in the outcome. From the more adent fans, I couldn't say without a poll, but it seemed to me that the result was extremely surprising but fine after it was digested. Most thought as I did that it could have gone either way. Personal tastes also factor into making a decision.

Personally, after watching Adam Rippon, I think Johnny and Evan will be passe in 2 years. If Adam gets to Worlds or Olys, there will be much switching of who's got the most fans. We should talk about the interesting Juniors. I hope they showed them on that other website. The Hubbels are good and his eyes express so much. Should be a great Junior Worlds with the Hubbles and Sam&Bates. USFS is not lagging in skaters coming up.

Joe

 

[decker]

I think all of us can figure out that they don't socialize off the ice. It just looks petty to dramatize that.

I don't disagree with you, but I think we need to tell it to the USFSA.

I doubt Evan and Johnny sat on that sofa because they thought it would be fun. Both of them looked like they'd rather dine with the Devil in the innermost circle of Hell. Johnny's comments on Evan in "independent" interviews this season have been much less ... eye-rolling ... than the officially sanctioned melodrama.

This stuff is manufactured, and the factory needs to be re-tooled. That's a management issue (USFSA leaders), not labor (the skaters ... who no doubt are expected to produce a bit of federation fluff now and then if they want to remain recognized, enveloped, etc.)

Susan

 

[georgia]

Personally, after watching Adam Rippon,

For me, he was the highlight of the week. He made me cry with the beauty of his skating and the purity of his moves. What an artist he is. I am really looking forward to his future. I hope he gets his triple Axel soon.
But, I think Johnny is a great artist too. It all depends on the style preference I guess. I don't get rapt up[sp?] in the for TV made stories. I don't even care how the news like to portrait the athletes. I know what these kids have to go through to get there, and I respect them and admire them for it. It's the system that gets me.

 

[mskater93]

My point is looking at the technical elements score:

3 combination jumps for Evan instead of 2, the third was a 3T that Johnny didn't do (he only did 1 3T) and yet technically it was very close score-wise (a SINGLE toe loop would have done it @ 0.4 points at the end of the 3F). Because Evan got the 4+ points for the 3T, he had some wiggle room for the scary landings.

The footwork was L3/L4 for Evan versus L3/L3 for Johnny which could also be considered the "difference" technically.

Johnny got a lot more + GOEs on the jump elements besides the quad attempt and one judge getting picky on the 3F. Evan had quite a few -1's beyond the quad combo attempt on the jump elements. In that respect, maybe a couple more could have given (-) GOEs or (+) GOEs to either, but many judges leave the default in there for whatever reason because even though there are guidelines, it's still easier to "remain in the corridor" by leaving it 0.

Johnny won the PCS score in the long, so it wasn't that, although you can make a case that it should have been a bigger differential. Whoever suggested that PCS is just a placeholder was correct in this case.

Based on the sum of parts in the one missing combination jump and the footwork, it came out as it did. I don't think the judges could have tied them if they tried, so conspiracy is hard to cry in this case.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

For me, he was the highlight of the week. He made me cry with the beauty of his skating and the purity of his moves. What an artist he is. I am really looking forward to his future. I hope he gets his triple Axel soon.
But, I think Johnny is a great artist too. It all depends on the style preference I guess. I don't get rapt up[sp?] in the for TV made stories. I don't even care how the news like to portrait the athletes. I know what these kids have to go through to get there, and I respect them and admire them for it. It's the system that gets me.

georgia - I said three years ago in these very pages, that Adam is a Johnny Clone. So the styles for me are very similar, but I think Adam is going in a better direction. I normally do not like Morozov's work but in this case he gave Adam the polishing he needed.

I think he did a 3A. I'll check the protocols.

Joe

 

[emma]

Joe -- nice to 'see you back' and hope you enjoyed Nationals. I always look to your 'up and comer list' so thanks for sharing!!! I gotta tell you that's it so interesting to hear you say - having been there - that it really felt to you that it could go either way, I was feeling very surprised (still don't entirely agree with it) and like WHAT????

Anyway - -I gotta know, since you spotted Weir early and defended him strongly when others wrote him off, what's making you feel he is about to be yesterday's news?? I saw this comp as a major step forward for him and kind of like a comittment to keep training hard/improving.

 

[georgia]

I think he did a 3A. I'll check the protocols.

No he did not Joe. I am sure of that. I heard he is working on it. Hopefully he will get it soon, because he needs it.
I also don't like Mozorov.
It's my first time seeing Adam, so i can't tell the difference, but boy he made my trip to Nationals worth while.

 

[GoldMedalist]

3 combination jumps for Evan instead of 2, the third was a 3T that Johnny didn't do (he only did 1 3T) and yet technically it was very close score-wise (a SINGLE toe loop would have done it @ 0.4 points at the end of the 3F). Because Evan got the 4+ points for the 3T, he had some wiggle room for the scary landings.

Johnny couldn't do another 3T, he did two Triple Axels and Triple Lutzes. The base value for the second Lutz actually puts Johnny ahead over Evan's second 3T by 2 points. BUT, because of having the 3T in combination Evan got to do a (overmarked) double axel as his 8th jumping passing, putting him ahead in terms of base value.

But even with higher base value for the jumps and the Level 4 Footwork vs. the Level 3 Footwork, Johnny still should have had a higher technical score because his jumps were that. much. better.

Johnny won the PCS score in the long, so it wasn't that, although you can make a case that it should have been a bigger differential.

You could make a MOUNTAIN of a case that it should have been a bigger differential.

I don't think the judges could have tied them if they tried, so conspiracy is hard to cry in this case.

I don't think the judges were trying to tie them, but I do think they were trying to hold Evan up as much as they possibly could.

 

[georgia]

I don't think the judges were trying to tie them, but I do think they were trying to hold Evan up as much as they possibly could.

I agree with you.

 

[Ausrick]

georgia - I said three years ago in these very pages, that Adam is a Johnny Clone. So the styles for me are very similar, but I think Adam is going in a better direction. I normally do not like Morozov's work but in this case he gave Adam the polishing he needed.

Joe, your fairly bold prediction about him sent me off googling and youtubing. Not much on youtube but what's there looked pretty impressive (to me anyway).

As to the 'Johnny Clone' bit, Adam's favourite male skaters are Takahashi (who has helped him out a bit it seems) and Yagudin. Doesn't mention Johnny.

For those interested, he has an official page at

http://www.figureskatersonline.com/adamrippon/

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Joe -- nice to 'see you back' and hope you enjoyed Nationals. I always look to your 'up and comer list' so thanks for sharing!!! I gotta tell you that's it so interesting to hear you say - having been there - that it really felt to you that it could go either way, I was feeling very surprised (still don't entirely agree with it) and like WHAT????

Anyway - -I gotta know, since you spotted Weir early and defended him strongly when others wrote him off, what's making you feel he is about to be yesterday's news?? I saw this comp as a major step forward for him and kind of like a comittment to keep training hard/improving.

I hate to be a downer on Johnny because I fought so hard to have all GS members send him a note to continue skating after he went into the boards in that Nationals. However, his antics off the ice do get to me and they bother me. He's a top senior skater and does not have to shock his audience with outlandish statements What I saw in St. Paul was a Johnny without that complete Otonal style but a mixture of what was and the new direction he is searching for. IMHO, he has not yet found what he is searching for, and for me, he seems to be searching for the audience to confirm him. I don't think the quad will add to his search and it will be just be another element which all the top male skaters have.

btw, I tried to say a few things while in st.Paul but the computer I was using was not working. The Men's division was the best I've ever seen. Just raving about Scot Smith was unbelieveable. Even he shocked the audience.

Joe

 

[georgia]

I agree with you Joe. Scott's performance was great. He is such a great kid and skater. I want him to do well and I think he will from now on.
On Weir tactics..
It's a curse to be an artistic person some times. They get lost in their own world. They are unpredictable, fascinating, and dramatic.
They really can't control their feelings, and they can't pretend to be something different than they really are.
But some of the best programs ever, were performed by those type of skaters.
Johnny is not just a skater. He is also a designer, and who knows what else.
I am trying hard to separate the skater, from the rest of Johnny. I love the skater. I don't know anything about the rest, and I really don't care to find out.
I love his openness. I loved the way he expressed his respect to his coaches before he came off the ice. I loved his commitment to his program and his tears at the end of his routine. I am not totally sold on Johnny, but I think he can easily put a program together with high level of execution. I am also expecting a triple after his quad. I can't believe this kid landed his first jump at the age of 12. I loved many more skaters. I was thrilled with the quality of skating during the whole event. Gone are the days i was pulling my hair watching ice dancing and pair skating [Ok. Pair skating has not reached the highest level].

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

georgia - It may be that Johnny has taken in too much of 'what's wrong with Johnny' from various sources. He should have stayed with Tarossova even if he had to be an ex-patriot. TT knew him better than others.

Yes, indeed, it was more than just Johnny and Evan for that Nats.

Joe