Jumps: Difficulty assessment and Base Value assignments

[prettykeys]

Can anyone explain why and how certain jumps are considered more difficult than others, and the reasons for their respective base values?

Double Axel 2A 3.5

Triple Toeloop 3T 4.0
Triple Salchow 3S 4.5
Triple Loop 3Lo 5.0
Triple Flip 3F 5.5
Triple Lutz 3Lz 6.0
Triple Axel 3A 8.2

Quad Toeloop 4T 9.8
Quad Salchow 4S 10.3
Quad Loop 4Lo 10.8

For example, why is the 3Lo considered "easier" than the 3Lz, and deserving of 1.0 less base points? Why is the 3S "easier" and "worth less" than the 3F?

Do you agree with these differences in base values? Is the hierarchy of difficulty reasonable and consistent?

 

[zizi31]

I'm not sure that I know the answer to your question, but I have to say that the point differences seem extremely small. For example, the quad loop only garners one more point than the quad toeloop. That's basically a rounding error in the overall score. It probably wouldn't even be worth practicing the 4Lo if it's at all harder than the 4T. So I don't see the point of having these tiny differences in points. If you want to encourage more difficult jumps, the point difference should be larger so that mastering the jumps is actually worth it.

I'm no expert, but I think that the flip and the lutz are probably worth more than other triples because the setup for these jumps involves gliding on one leg with the other stretched behind you, so you can only use one leg to push off for the jump. It must be much harder to jump a certain height if you're only pushing off one leg, vs. two legs.

 

[hikki]

I guess we'll have to ask skaters who've actually attempted these jumps really. But I'm guessing it must be hell a lot of difference in difficulty between a double jump and a double axel, a triple jump and a triple axel, a triple jump and a quad, etc.

Should 2 axel out of spiral with tano, great height and speed in and out (let's say 3.5 + 2.0 GOE = 5.5) be rewarded as much as "just" a 3 flip (5.5)? Insert 3 lutz & 3axel, etc. in the two underlined parts and you get the story. Could it be that the more difficult a jump is, the harder it is to add 'GEO' features? Isn't 'just' completing only so-and-so-can-nail kind of 'up there' jumps worth a praise anymore?

I think difference should be big enough so no GOE can compensate. Or the range of GOE should be reconsidered.

 

[Bennett]

I think difference should be big enough so no GOE can compensate. Or the range of GOE should be reconsidered.

I agree.

There's the time when you reach your limit where you just cannot learn more difficult jumps. To me, polishing up easier jumps does not seem to compensate what that means.

Well-executed easier jumps should score higher than poorly executed more difficult jumps. But they shouldn't score the same as or higher than decently executed more difficult jumps.

To address this, the base value and/or GOE should be reconsidered:
- To increase the base value differences between jumps. and/or
- To factor GOE by difficulty of jumps.

Sorry I've repeated what I've already said in the stojko opposes the ladies' results thread yesterday.
But this thread seems a more appropriate, neutral place to discuss the rules apart from specific skaters and I appreciate the original poster for starting the thread.

Just to be clear, I am not saying that difficult jumps are only things that matter. The comparison I am making above is simply between Jump A and Jump B. I have no problem when a well-balanced program with easier jumps and good skating skills beats a poorly-balanced program with one or two difficult jumps and poor skating skills.

 

[bibi24]

As skaters you learn the jumps in such order of their difficulty, it's been the "hierarchy" of jumps in skating for decades.... the tests are also constructed as such as you move up in the level of skating/competition.

The order of difficulty has always been consistent (even in 6.0), it's the range/scale that sometimes has people engaging in discussion and asking questions.

It's hard to explain/experience the varying difficulties without actually attempting the jumps yourself. Basically the take off, edging, edge quality, entry, body coordination, control, all play a large part.

Here's my lazy attempt of some explanation,

Walt Jump/Axel- you take off from a forward outside edge.
(you learn to skate forward before you skate backwards)

Salchow- beginners usually start out with a forward outside 3 turn as setup (back 3 alternative), but regardless of setup, it takes off from a back inside edge, and is an edge jump.

Toe Loop- forward inside 3 turn, or variation, then from a back outside edge. First jump being assisted with a toepick to polevault into the air.

Loop- edge jump involving both feet on the ice (hence can be more tricky than salchow), a slip on the takeoff is a common error. also involves both your hips to create the momentum in order for a successful takeoff and the necessary revolution(s).

Flip- inside edge, toe jump with the different foot's toepick from the toeloop.

Lutz- Going completely backwards before takeoff, requires a very secure backward outside edge, coordination from your whole body, ankle, knee, hip, core, shoulders, arms, (well pretty much all jumps requires this....)

---------------------------------------------------

First you learn basic jumps- waltz jump, hops, half flip, single toe, salchow, etc.

Then you learn a little more advanced jumps- loop, flip, lutz, flip and a half, split jump, (wally).
and also small jump combinations, ie. waltz jump+loop, loop+loop, etc.

When you start competing you see jumps like single axels in (pre)-preliminary.


In Juvenile your first double jumps are likely to be toe-loops and salchows. The move from single jumps to double jumps is somewhat challenging with the exponential change in momentum and inertia, speed height, etc.

After master the axel/2T/2S, you move onto the other doubles to complete your Juvenile ranks.

Then to the novice ranks where you being a SP/LP, other non-jump difficult elements such as flying spin, deathdrop, etc. You begin you 2A training, and first triple jump- usually the jump you can get the most height on, for some it's the toe/Salc, others it may be the loop. If you can get any sort of consistency with triple jumps then you move onto Junior.

---------------------------------------------------
wow that was a really messy post.... sigh hwell:

For better understand of the advancement of jumps, really refer to the technical/test sheets of ISU, there are several different testing schemes internationally.

 

[bibi24]

I think difference should be big enough so no GOE can compensate. Or the range of GOE should be reconsidered.

edit: what Bennett said

One possible solution perhaps would be a % point of the base mark for the GOE, instead of the same GOE for all elements. This would reward for difficulty as well.

2A- +2GOE, you get a 20% bonus to the base mark of your jump- 3.5x1.2 = 4.2, bonus = 0.7

3A- +2GOE, 8.2x1.2 = 9.8, bonus = 1.6

 

[zizi31]

I agree.

There's the time when you reach your limit where you just cannot learn more difficult jumps. To me, polishing up easier jumps does not seem to compensate what that means.

Well-executed easier jumps should score higher than poorly executed more difficult jumps. But they shouldn't score the same as or higher than decently executed more difficult jumps.

I couldn't agree more. This is the main problem that I've had with scoring this season, and why I felt that some skaters were being hugely over-scored for doing mediocre technical content in terms of difficulty. I haven't necessarily had a problem with skaters' placements, but the margins of wins have sometimes seemed excessive. Doing an element really well should only give you so much of a boost, IMO. You shouldn't be able to completely crush the competition just because of huge GOEs on moderately difficult elements. I really think that the GOE feature is out of hand, and something needs to be done to curb it.

 

[Bennett]

edit: what Bennett said

One possible solution perhaps would be a % point of the base mark for the GOE, instead of the same GOE for all elements. This would reward for difficulty as well.

2A- +2GOE, you get a 20% bonus to the base mark of your jump- 3.5x1.2 = 4.2, bonus = 0.7

3A- +2GOE, 8.2x1.2 = 9.8, bonus = 1.6

Yeah, this makes sense to me. Thanks. This is similar to the 1.1 bonus on jumps done in the latter half.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I'm no expert, but I think that the flip and the lutz are probably worth more than other triples because the setup for these jumps involves gliding on one leg with the other stretched behind you, so you can only use one leg to push off for the jump. It must be much harder to jump a certain height if you're only pushing off one leg, vs. two legs.

I don't believe an edge jump should take off on two legs. That's not the definition of edge jumps.

The toeoff jumps assist the edge jumps. Can you imagine a Lutz without the toeoff? It's easier to do a Toeloop than a Loop, and a Flip (toesal) than a sal. I think there is more 'cheating' in edge jumps than toeoff jumps.

 

[hurrah]

I don't believe an edge jump should take off on two legs. That's not the definition of edge jumps.

The toeoff jumps assist the edge jumps. Can you imagine a Lutz without the toeoff? It's easier to do a Toeloop than a Loop, and a Flip (toesal) than a sal. I think there is more 'cheating' in edge jumps than toeoff jumps.

I have heard two explanations as to why the point goes from toe-loop to lutz.

One is that the technique to do a successful jump is easiest to learn on a toe-loop, and most difficult to learn on a lutz.

The other is that even though the jumps are categorically called 'double', 'triple' and so forth, the actual revolution of each jump is slightly different. For example, the correct loop technique actually requires a pre-rotation of 1/2 a turn, so a 'triple loop' will actually have a rotation of two and a half revolution; the jump that requires the least pre-rotation for it to be correctly executed is the lutz and so a 'triple lutz' will truly have nearly three revolutions. A triple axel, for it to be successfully executed, requires pre-rotation of maybe 1/4 a turn. However, this means that the jumper is required to complete three and 1/4 turns in the air in a triple-axel.

But I am not a skater and only read these explanations on figure skating forums so I am not sure about its validity.

 

[prettykeys]

I don't have many insights to share on this, so I just wanted to say thanks for the comments, and hope to see more coming. I especially didn't know that the jumps were traditionally learned in the order of the "hierarchy", so thank you for that, bibi.

I also agree with the concept of GoE as factors, not absolute additions in points.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^^^
The question of loop jump, I believe is governed by its definition. But in recent times, the prerotation seems to have been battered around the forums, and it has been agreed that a certain percentage of prerotation is permitted. I would like read about it officially and to what extent it actually affects the air rotations. Anyone have an official link to this?

You are correct in your analysis that prerotations cut short the number of air turns.

The toeloop, if done properly, would keep the air rotations in tact. Much easier than the edge loop. improper takeoffs turn the loop into a pique waltz jump. Watch for them in Combos.

Proper taekoffs, air rotations and landings are considered Good Technique, and that should show in the Tech and PC scores. Do they? is the question.

 

[prettykeys]

Well-executed easier jumps should score higher than poorly executed more difficult jumps. But they shouldn't score the same as or higher than decently executed more difficult jumps.

To address this, the base value and/or GOE should be reconsidered:
- To increase the base value differences between jumps. and/or
- To factor GOE by difficulty of jumps.

So, to apply the percentage/factoring concept to the jumps as far as we can tell right now:

3Lz x 1.3 (7.8) is worth less than 3A BV (8.2) ---> good (and actually, 3Lz given +2GoE as it stands now is still worth less than basic 3A, so 3A issue isn't really a huge issue, IMO)
3A x 1.3 (10.66) is worth more than 4T BV (9.8) ---> base value of quads needs to be raised (maybe to 11)

2A x 1.3 (4.55) is worth more than 3T BV (4.0) ---> 2A is currently way overvalued, especially with +2GoE in points.

Maybe, putting in the factoring GoE's (fGoE), the base value of 3T should begin at 4.5? So:

2A: 3.5

3T: 4.5
3S: 5.0
3Lo: 5.5
3F: 6.0
3Lz: 6.5
3A: 9.0

4T: 11.5

 

[mskater93]

Axel, Salchow, and toe loop all have a weight transfer from take off side to landing side to assist in getting the rotation which is easier than the loop, flip and Lutz which take off and land on the same side and have no weigh transfer to them to help create rotation. The Lutz is the hardest of the three non-transitional jumps because of the counter rotatation on the take off (takes off from the opposite outside edge from what you would "expect" for the direction rotating). Typically the Axel is learned and then the 2S/2T or 3S/3T because they are a family of jumps. Depending on the skater, either the Sal or toe of the specific rotational family is learned first based upon whether the skater is an edge jumper or a toe jumper (each skater is better at one or the other, few are equal at both). Same for the loop and flip - typically learned together as singles and either loop or flip is taught first depending on the preferernce for a given skater (edge or toe).