Juniors: Mirai Nagasu vs. Rachael Flatt

[Nigel]

Flatt had level 3/s and 4/s in her SP last night at the BOpen(except the LSp..a 2...). And a clean 3Lutz -3T(not a flutz) so i wouldn't write off Flatt quite yet. Yes, she has the jumps and can do them in competition...so, again, is it worth doing head to head comparisons of 14 yr olds...probably not yet.

And, as someone posted above,Caroline, Mirai and Rachael all grew up in southern CA, until Flatt moved to Colorado. So, they probably have skated with each other at some point in their lives.

And to reiterate Sylvia again:
Zhang is skating on the Senior level internationally and nationally...her first season as a Sr (though not sure if she has tested done her Sr freeskate test yet...will have to look at USFS website to check for sure).
Mirai and Rachael will be skating Senior domestically...Mirai's first season as a senior, Rachael's second. Both girls will be skating as Juniors internationally.

 

[kappa_1]

Rachael is competing at the Broadmoor Open this week. In her SP, to music from Gershwin's "Porgy and Bess", she scored 58.20, more than 12 points higher than her nearest competitor. For a program debut, that is a high score indeed.

One thing that distinguishes Rachael (who turns 15 next month) from her two slightly younger rivals is her highly developed musical sense. It is unusual to see a skater of Rachael's age able to express the very different kinds of music she selects. She seems to have an affinity for Gershwin, as her SP music this year and her last year's FS to "American in Paris" are both by Gershwin.

Her speed and spins have improved a lot since last season, and she has some very unusual and difficult transition moves. She is not going to let the younger girls walk over her.

Amen

 

[oleada]

Oleada, It's the style of a cutsey wootsey little girl and how can you put her down? Lipinsky used it to her advantage. Everyone is awed by precocsius(sp) children.

An exceptional jumper for a little girl who can giggle will please the audience as well as the judges. I just don't want to read that there is great artistry here.


Joe

I thought Mirai's long definitely didn't fall under the "giggling for the audience and judges" (for that matter, I don't think the short does, either, but to each their own). Besides, who said anything about artistry? I said presentation - and Mirai's is nice - but it's generally something the majority of Juniors (yes, including Zhang) can improve upon.

If she is 16, and still using the whole little girl thing, I'll actually agree with you.

 

[feraina]

Her speed and spins have improved a lot since last season, and she has some very unusual and difficult transition moves. She is not going to let the younger girls walk over her.

What a sport! Here comes a 14 year old, and we're talking about her not letting "young girls" walk over her.

Does anyone know if Mirai or Caro is planning on a summer competition? It'd be really exciting to see what new stuff they are planning to bring aboard. No doubt they're also working hard to improve on things over the summer.

 

[hockeyfan228]

One thing that distinguishes Rachael (who turns 15 next month) from her two slightly younger rivals is her highly developed musical sense. It is unusual to see a skater of Rachael's age able to express the very different kinds of music she selects. She seems to have an affinity for Gershwin, as her SP music this year and her last year's FS to "American in Paris" are both by Gershwin.

Her speed and spins have improved a lot since last season, and she has some very unusual and difficult transition moves. She is not going to let the younger girls walk over her.

ITA. I think as an interpreter of music, she's as good as just about anyone I've seen that young. She has a lot of patience in finishing her movements to the musical phrase. I can't wait until she rotates the 3/3 fully: her rhythm in those jumps is superb.

I can't tell speed from the videos, but Button and Fleming commented that she's slow, and that's something she'll need to work on. The rest of them I find cute, with the exception of Oster, who's got the most extreme outer edge and wonderful counterbalance on a 3Lu that I've seen in ages. That is age-appropriate for them, but I don't see any particularly musical ones among them.

 

[chuckm]

What a sport! Here comes a 14 year old, and we're talking about her not letting "young girls" walk over her.
.

If you bothered to READ what I wrote I said "youngER" girls.

Rachael turns 15 in less than a month, while Mirai and Caroline just turned 14. In terms of musical sophistication and expression, Rachael is years ahead of them.

BTW, Rachael did 3Z3T in her SP and got +GOE on it. She got +GOE on all her elements, except the level4 spiral sequence (she got 0 GOE on that).

 

[PolymerBob]

Rachael did 3Z3T in her SP and got +GOE on it. QUOTE]

I'll probably sound ignorant, but what is "3Z3T" ?
Thanks.

 

[chuckm]

triple lutz / triple toe

 

[Taan]

i love both skaters but mirai is so much better, i am actually predicting mirai to be 2010 olympic champion.

mirai is amazing in every way, and mirai has tremendous SPEED across the ice, she is even faster than carolina kostner imo.

in contrast rachel flatt seems to be an extremely SLOW skater. if rachel flatt can improve her speed she can do extremely well, but right now she skates really slowly. I hate slow skaters.

rachel flatt has the edge over mirai in that she has the awesome clean 3-3. Mirai needs that. however, even though the tripletriple is highly important it still does not give rachel the edge over mirai. mirai is in a leaugue of her own. or rather in a leugue with caroline zhang.

 

[Mathman]

I guess on the flip side, I'm interested to see how Michelle and Sasha, and earlier, Kristi Yamaguchi, fared in their pre-senior days. Did they win the national championships at every level they competed at, or more like how Caroline & Mirai have fared so far?

Sasha had kind of a late start. As far as I can see from her USFS bio she did not win anything of significance below the junior level (6th in U.S. novice in 1998, age 13).

In 1999 (age 14) she came second in U.S. juniors and in 2000 she made a splash by getting second in U.S. seniors (but only 6th at World juniors). The next season she was out with a back injury.

So it wasn't until 2002 (age 17) that she began her medal run, with 5 consecutive U.S. podium finishes, 4th at Olys and at 2002 and 2003 worlds, and then three consecutive Worlds medals, 2004-2006.

Michelle (like Mao) was a prodigy from the get-go.

1992 (age 11), 9th at U.S. junior nationals
1993 (age 12), 6th at U.S. senior nationals
1994 (age 13), 2nd at U.S. senior nationals and 1st at world juniors.
1995 (age 14), 2nd at U.S. senior nationals, 4th at senior Worlds
1996 (age 15), first of 9 U.S. championships and first of 9 consecutive world podium finishes.

I don't know so much about Kristi's early career, but at 14 she won the U.S. junior pairs championship with Rudy Galindo, and two years later (1988) she won the World junior championship in both singles and pairs.

Kristi, like Kimmie, won the world championship (1991 and 1992) before she won the U.S. championship (1992).

 

[Nigel]

What a sport! Here comes a 14 year old, and we're talking about her not letting "young girls" walk over her.

Does anyone know if Mirai or Caro is planning on a summer competition? It'd be really exciting to see what new stuff they are planning to bring aboard. No doubt they're also working hard to improve on things over the summer.

According to USFS envelope information, "B" and "C" envelope skaters will have to choose a monitoring or competition readiness event before they go out on their SGP or JGP events. So, it is very likely both girls will do some sort of competition, most likely in southern CA as they have rarely traveled outside of their region for summer club events.

 

[Nigel]

ITA. I think as an interpreter of music, she's as good as just about anyone I've seen that young. She has a lot of patience in finishing her movements to the musical phrase. I can't wait until she rotates the 3/3 fully: her rhythm in those jumps is superb.

I can't tell speed from the videos, but Button and Fleming commented that she's slow, and that's something she'll need to work on. The rest of them I find cute, with the exception of Oster, who's got the most extreme outer edge and wonderful counterbalance on a 3Lu that I've seen in ages. That is age-appropriate for them, but I don't see any particularly musical ones among them.

From our spots in the bleacher seats in peanut heaven in Spokane, Flatt did not look slow or fast for that matter in the SP. IIRC, neither Peggy or Uncle Dick commented one bit on Flatt's speed during the SP.

But, following Czisny in the LP, she did look somewhat slower, albeit not that slow...you can't do a 3F/2T/2Lp in the last section of your program and skate slow to pull that off. Or the attempt on the last 3Lz at the very end of her program (she did look tired there) I think she looked slow relative to Czisny, who must be a good 4-6 inches taller and, lets admit, has lots of "leg" compared to Flatt

It is so hard to judge "relative" speed in a close up camera shot on TV. And relative to the bigger older Sr ladies, Flatt may have been a bit slower in the LP, but certainly not in the SP.

Mirai and Caroline have yet to enter that arena....

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Of the new three American baby ballerinas, I still lean toward Caroline. She has the flow better than the other two, and the wow extensions. That's not meant to undermine Rachael's potential for landing those high scoring jumps, or Mirai's winning smile.

I haven't seen enough of these tykes to make a strong opinion for the podium at US Nats. I do believe one of them will be on the podium along with Kimmie. Which one is a wait and see for me. What pains me, is someone who is due to be on the podium may lose out.

Joe

 

[chuckm]

I have seen Flatt skate in person, and did not find her slow at all. What I did notice was the complete ice coverage she achieves, and now much she relates to her music and to the spectators. There is something special that this young lady has that neither of the young dynamos have.

I think it's great that the US has 3 young skaters who have so much potential, and that they are not cookie-cutter similar.

 

[Zuranthium]

Good job ignoring Ashley Wagner everyone.

~Z

 

[chuckm]

Ashley Wagner just turned 16. She is turning Senior internationally and Nationally and is eligible for Senior Worlds.

The other 3 ladies being discussed here---Flatt, Zhang and Nagasu--are all 14 and ineligible for Senior Worlds and 4CC.

Capisce?

 

[Mathman]

If I remember correctly way back to the beginning of the thread, I think the idea was that Rachael and Mirai should be expected to dominate the Junior Grand Prix series (with Caroline and Ashley having moved up to the senior GP circuit).

I don't think the schedule has been published yet. (?) Will they directly compete against each other before the finals?

 

[chuckm]

Mirai is at Lake Placid (with Alexe Gilles, who just won the Broadmoor Junior Ladies), and Rachael is at the 3rd event, in Austria. If they both finish top 4, Mirai will most likely be in the 5th event (Croatia), and Rachael in the 7th (Germany).

 

[flying camel]

According to USFS envelope information, "B" and "C" envelope skaters will have to choose a monitoring or competition readiness event before they go out on their SGP or JGP events. So, it is very likely both girls will do some sort of competition, most likely in southern CA as they have rarely traveled outside of their region for summer club events.

They should do that for senior ladies because last year aside from Kimmie nobody looked prepared.

 

[chuckm]

They did. BeBe Liang and Katy Taylor went to Nebelhorn and finished first and third, respectively; Megan Williams-Stewart won Nepela. In the club competitions, Christine Zukowski won Midlantics and BeBe won GoldenWest, while Williams-Stewart was 3rd at Liberty.

The only Senior top 10 ladies from '06 Nationals who didn't do preparatory comps were the "A" envelope ladies, Hughes and Meissner, and Alissa Czisny. Corwin retired, Rosenthal opted not to compete while in college, and Cohen took off 2 years.