Kiss and Cry drama is dead (article)

[Star85]

Figure skating is judged. The CoP is a wonderful way for robots to judge, but then robots will skate -- it seems some are saying that's already happening -- and eventually robots will watch.

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I like your robot analogy.

 

[Tinymavy15]

I always thought that the "kiss and cry" was kinda stupid. Just put the scores up on the screen and the skaters view them from wherever. i am sure that most of the skaters (expect the newbies who were little junior girls last year and think it is so cool to be on TV) would much rather go backstage and not stare stupidly into the camera after they messed up.

 

[champs]

Real-time scoring progress on display?

I have an idea, it may be a dumb suggestion because I am not sure how realizable it would be. But anyway.

And that would be, to display the score progress in real time on a display as the skaters skate, just like any ball sports such as basketball, football, baseball, table tennis, etc. The judges are asked to make a quick judgement as soon as the skater currently skating executes an element, definitely before the start of the next element, and as soon as all judges' GOEs are entered for that element, the computer calculates the value to be counted for the total (i.e., eliminating the highest and lowest, and taking the average, I don't like random selection), and both the base value and the actual value to be counted should be displayed, next to each other so that the spectators understand how relatively good or bad the quality of the execution was considered to be by the judges, and if the element is downgraded or received a lower level than expected from the skater, the spectators know that right on the spot, not until they go home and download the pdf of the protocol after the free skating.

At the beginning of the skate, it would be good to display the planned total base mark for the TES. At any moment during the skate, in addition to the base and actual points for the last element executed, the temporary total TES score so far accumulated should be displayed as well, just like basketball or any of those familiar ball sports. This would greatly help spectators follow the progress of point accumulation.

Of course this real-time progress display cannot be applied to the PCS, but I think the confusion at the sight of the total score during K&C that the casual spectators are left with mostly stems from how the TES turns out.

One thing I'm not sure about is how feasible this real-time judgement is for the judges, and most importantly, for the technical specialists. Maybe we might want to demand that tech caller make a call based on their real-time viewing of the element, and no replay, w/ or w/o slow motion, is to be used. The fact is even with such thing allowed now, there are still questionable calls or calls that skating fans do not unanimously agree, right? Speaking of which, I think that 3 tech specialists should make a call individually with no discussion and the majority call among the 3 should be elected. I don't kow how interactive/dependent the GOE ideally should be given when it comes to wrong edge takeoff and UR. As for UR, maybe it should not be treated as downgrade to the lower number of revolutions but rather the intended number of revolutions, with a mandatory -3 overriding the individul judges' GOEs, something like that.

Maybe this is totally infeasible and plain silly from ISU's point of view, let alone in local comps, but I might as well express that once rather than never.

 

[gkelly]

as soon as all judges' GOEs are entered for that element, the computer calculates the value to be counted for the total (i.e., eliminating the highest and lowest, and taking the average, I don't like random selection)

Agreed.

and both the base value and the actual value to be counted should be displayed, next to each other so that the spectators understand how relatively good or bad the quality of the execution was considered to be by the judges, and if the element is downgraded or received a lower level than expected from the skater, the spectators know that right on the spot, not until they go home and download the pdf of the protocol after the free skating.

This might be feasible for TV broadcasts, where two or three numbers can be displayed in a corner of the screen that viewers can just flick their eyes to a few inches away from the image of the skater they've been watching.

In that case, it would be up to the broadcasters to lobby in favor of having the information available to them and the ISU would need to alter the rules and the software enough to make it allowable and available to the broadcasters. But really it would be a broadcast change, not a scoring change.

For live events, it wouldn't be feasible. Where would the scores be shown? Jumbotron? So it would only work in arenas that have that feature available. Not always the case for, e.g., Four Continents or Junior Worlds, let alone non-championship events.

Most viewers wouldn't bother to take their eyes away from the ice to look up at a scoreboard in the middle of a program.

And we certainly wouldn't want judges taking their eyes off the skater to look up at scores. Plus, some of the information that viewers want is information it's been decided that it's better for the judges not to have (such as levels of the non-jump elements).

At the beginning of the skate, it would be good to display the planned total base mark for the TES. At any moment during the skate, in addition to the base and actual points for the last element executed, the temporary total TES score so far accumulated should be displayed as well, just like basketball or any of those familiar ball sports. This would greatly help spectators follow the progress of point accumulation.

Sure. On TV.

One thing I'm not sure about is how feasible this real-time judgement is for the judges, and most importantly, for the technical specialists. Maybe we might want to demand that tech caller make a call based on their real-time viewing of the element, and no replay, w/ or w/o slow motion, is to be used.

Some of the information called in real time is going to change after review at the end of the program.

We might be able to agree that edge calls or underrotations should only be called in real time (or with replay allowed, but not slow motion?) and that in borderline cases the benefit of the doubt should always go to the skater.

But calling levels on complicated elements (e.g., step sequences, especially in dance or pairs) is not something one person can really do in real time. As I understand it two or all three members of the technical panel keep track of different features, and they have to compare notes afterward to confirm the level.

Also, certain kinds of errors that a skater might make introduce ambiguity as to which element was which. Example: skater does a flying camel entry into a spin early in a long program, bobbles around for 3 or 4 revolutions, and then falls. Was that element supposed to count as the flying spin or as a combination spin or spin in one position with a flying entry? Hard to say until we see what other spins she does later in the program, at which point the panel can go back and change the call for the earlier element if they guessed wrong in real time.

The fact is even with such thing allowed now, there are still questionable calls or calls that skating fans do not unanimously agree, right?

Well, I wouldn't worry about whether skating fans agree, because there are so many; there's a very wide variance in knowledge levels among fans and even the most knowledgeable are unlikely to have official training; fans watching on TV or worse yet online are limited by the quality of the video and by the camera angles provided by the broadcaster (which may be better or worse for seeing the relevant details than the angles used by the technical panel on review, depending on the placement of each element) and don't have any of the advantages of seeing and hearing the element live; and many fans are very biased toward or against specific skaters.

The important thing is for the technical panels to be fair and consistent. Who's in the best position to determine whether that is the case? It is a problem, but I wouldn't give that responsibility to folks who on average are less knowledgeable and less impartial.

In summary, possibly feasible for TV and could help engage viewers who care about the technical details (and teach more casual fans what to care about). Not really feasible live in the arena.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^^^
Much of what I said on another thread: that figure skating will become an intimate Sport . There is no need for the masses to get involved. Just enjoy the show.


As to Artistry: I don't know if that was a correct word in the 6.0 system. It always seem to me, to mean, how well the program was presented. It was without a doubt very subjective.

The CoP goes further by adding on several bullets to its different categories of judging PC scores. One must remember that P does not mean Presentation. It refers somewhat to how well the whole package went with the Technical. Some of these categories and bullets are very questionable to me, and some, imo, are of no value whatsoever. Main thing to remember, it is not an Artistry Score!

 

[Mathman]

Much of what I said on another thread: that figure skating will become an intimate Sport . There is no need for the masses to get involved.

But the question is, should we masses go gently into that good night, or should we rage against the close of day?

 

[asparaguss]

^^^
Much of what I said on another thread: that figure skating will become an intimate Sport . There is no need for the masses to get involved. Just enjoy the show.

"Masses," eh? Nice.

In my opinion, skating needs to be protected from ideas like this, or else it will "intimate" itself right out of existence, and there won't be any "show" to enjoy.

Besides, isn't it perhaps a bit selfish to essentially say, "I like it the way it is, the rest of the world can get lost"? Maybe the skaters themselves (and even many "intimate" fans) might actually like skating to get a little more public recognition.

 

[Mathman]

Figure skating is judged.

The truth is always exciting. Speak it, then. Life is dull without it.

-- Pearl S. Buck.

 

[jenaj]

I agree with this article. I wouldn't expect anyone except the uber-fans to try to decipher the COP system. And even the uber-fans have to wait to see the protocols to know what happened. One fix for the system would be to judge what is now called PCS under 6.0.

 

[Mathman]

One fix for the system would be to judge what is now called PCS under 6.0.

...Then maybe we could see if we could come up with a second fix

 

[Linny]

Grammer police

The proper phrase is "give free rein" not "give free reign".

Linny

 

[Mathman]

^

And, in the next-to-last sentence, it's we (not us), the skating fans,...

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

"Masses," eh? Nice.

In my opinion, skating needs to be protected from ideas like this, or else it will "intimate" itself right out of existence, and there won't be any "show" to enjoy.

Besides, isn't it perhaps a bit selfish to essentially say, "I like it the way it is, the rest of the world can get lost"? Maybe the skaters themselves (and even many "intimate" fans) might actually like skating to get a little more public recognition.

But I do not think you are getting the drift of the difficulty for the masses to learn the ins and outs of the CoP. I haven't read any remarks about the rest of the world can get lost.

I believe the CoP may be heading the masses to just go and watch the competition without understanding why C was better than A or B. It's still fun to watch.

 

[Mathman]

I believe the CoP may be heading the masses to just go and watch the competition without understanding why C was better than A or B. It's still fun to watch.

Kurt Browning just made almost the same exact point while giving commentary on the Original Dance at Canadian Nationals.

He said that nine times out of ten, if you just go with your gut feeling about which couple danced the best, that will turn out to be right by CoP points, too.

 

[museksk8r]

But the question is, should we masses go gently into that good night, or should we rage against the close of day?

:thumbsup::chorus:

 

[abaka]

The truth is always exciting. Speak it, then. Life is dull without it.

-- Pearl S. Buck.

--And a 6.0 shall set you free...

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Kurt Browning just made almost the same exact point while giving commentary on the Original Dance at Canadian Nationals.

He said that nine times out of ten, if you just go with your gut feeling about which couple danced the best, that will turn out to be right by CoP points, too.

Ya know, I still have this feeling that CoP just sums up what one was seeing in the 6.0 system. I further feel that a tight decision is better for the CoP to handle than the ordinals, but only in a tight decision. Buttle v. Joubert, for example.

Can't you see a 3-way tie at the uS Nats Ladies event, and yes, the Men's event too? Wow! How to break that?

Mcl/Bru would not be anything more that a correct prediction in any system.

The Hubbells though, would be an upset if they won in any system.

 

[gsrossano]

Ya know, I still have this feeling that CoP just sums up what one was seeing in the 6.0 system. I further feel that a tight decision is better for the CoP to handle than the ordinals, but only in a tight decision.

Actually in a tight decision, IJS is measurably worse than 6.0 Both systems give essentially the same answer when the results are obvious.

 

[Ladskater]

I get what the writer is saying - yes the new judging system does not bring the instant joy a string of 6.0 marks would to the fans and the skater. It was part of the excitement of figure skating. I agree with much of the article.

However the new crop of skaters are showing their elation or frustration when they step off the ice so one does still see some drama. Still one can't replace the look on the skater's faces when a perfect 6.0 mark went up on the boards with a string of 5.9 marks.

 

[Buttercup]

However the new crop of skaters are showing their elation or frustration when they step off the ice so one does still see some drama. Still one can't replace the look on the skater's faces when a perfect 6.0 mark went up on the boards with a string of 5.9 marks.

Actually, I've seen plenty of skaters whose faces lit up when they saw a new PB, and quite a few celebrations once the placement went up. I posted two examples earlier in this thread. The skaters know what marks they're hoping for; it's the casual viewers who are having a hard time following, and I don't know how that can be sorted out except by having the TV announcers explain what's going on so that the marks don't seem so confusing to those who do not follow skating closely.

I have to point out that skating had just over a decade with the format of SP and LP only under 6.0 - up until 1990 figures were part of it, and CoP was starting to come in by the 2003-2004. And there had been plenty of tinkering with the way the sport was scored over the years.

I still think the decreased popularity in the US is more because of how the media frames it (no drama, no stars in the ladies, confusing scoring) than due to the reasons being discussed here. Skating seems to be doing well in Japan, Russia, Canada etc., but then in those countries interest does not appear to center so much on the ladies, so there are other things to get excited about.