KSU Suspends Hae-in Lee and Young You

[Joekaz]

I think the best thing to do in this situation is to ban the 2 girls for this season only. Then put a restraining order on skater A from contacting skater C until skater C reaches age of consent in 4 more months. However, skater C will have to initiate contact after he turns 16 for the order to terminate. That way no more details need to be disclosed and we and they can move on from this whole unfortunate situation.

 

[Skating91]

It's wildly disturbing how quickly some of y'all turn your backs on victims of sexual assault/harassment/misconduct. Yes, the victim is a male, but that doesn't mean he should feel lucky for having been assaulted. If the genders were reversed and it was a junior female skater who was harassed by a senior male skater, we wouldn't be having this much debate.

They have been boyfriend/girlfriend in the past, were sending intimate messages to each other at the camp, he went to the female dorm voluntarily, if one of the screenshots is to be believed he actually asked for the kiss.

We are trivialising sexual assault and doing a disservice to the plight of victims when we try to claim that this hickey is assault. We are also trivialising mental health issues when we say this caused a severe psychological trauma as C's lawyer did. Someone with this kind of reaction to a kiss should not be participating in a pressure cooker of a sport like figure skating. I'm afraid what will happen to this person in the future maybe he has a bad skate or a coach raises their voice at training.

 

[triplelutzzzzz]

Absolutely right. For some weird reason the skating power structure and community loves to over sexualize the young girls and infantilize the boys, both usually for the benefit of grown men.

How is accusing a women of sexual harassment sexualizing her? How is a man being a sexual harassment victim infantilzing him?

Yes, the statement released by C's lawyer is vague, but have you ever thought about why? I wonder why someone who is a victim of sexual harassment might not want to spill their guts to everyone and anyone. I'm not saying I know everything, but believing a victim is quite literally the bare minimum. (Not to mention, this is a statement through a lawyer, those statements are almost always vaguer than a statement directly from the person themselves.)

I'm not saying I know everything about this, Korea has heavy privacy laws (as they should) so information is not widely available, but I would rather believe someone who says he was victimized than not. We don't know everything that happened but invalidating someone's experiences with sexual harassment is an absolutely wild thing to do.

Also, people can still be sexually harassed even if they're in a relationship.

 

[fehervari]

based on today's news the end of the case is that C will be suspended for defamation because he tried to avoid prosecution by lying about the sexual assault. this was an attempt to distract from the simple fact that he had gone to Lee's room and assisted at the girls' party. thoughtless, bickering teenagers do and say more and more stupid things for fun, hurt, love and fear
this would be too little for a k-drama, but Haein Lee can lose all her contracts. the allegations do not have to be true

I believe more and more in Haein Lee's innocence. not because the "victim" is a boy, but for the fact that she takes her name and face

as for the terrible alcohol case: that is what deserves a reprimand. organizing the training camp in may was indeed a greater sin. who will hold accountable those for whom these children are a source of livelihood and ruin them out of gratitude?

 

[triplelutzzzzz]

They have been boyfriend/girlfriend in the past, were sending intimate messages to each other at the camp, he went to the female dorm voluntarily, if one of the screenshots is to be believed he actually asked for the kiss.

We are trivialising sexual assault and doing a disservice to the plight of victims when we try to claim that this hickey is assault. We are also trivialising mental health issues when we say this caused a severe psychological trauma as C's lawyer did. Someone with this kind of reaction to a kiss should not be participating in a pressure cooker of a sport like figure skating. I'm afraid what will happen to this person in the future maybe he has a bad skate or a coach raises their voice at training.

"We are trivialising sexual assault and doing a disservice to the plight of victims when we try to claim that this hickey is assault." Who gets to decide what a "real" victim is? And yes, an unwanted hickey is still harassment. If you're going to sit here and say that someone's reaction to assault or harassment is an overreaction then I genuinely don't know what to tell you. And we still don't know if the hickey thing is the whole story.

"Someone with this kind of reaction to a kiss should not be participating in a pressure cooker of a sport like figure skating. I'm afraid what will happen to this person in the future maybe he has a bad skate or a coach raises their voice at training." You're going down a slippery slope. Someone having a bad reaction to being sexually harassed is no where near the same as a bad skate or a coach raising their voice. How do you even get there? Again, we don't know everything but my god, the least people can do is believe the junior skater and support him.

 

[Joekaz]

How is accusing a women of sexual harassment sexualizing her? How is a man being a sexual harassment victim infantilzing him?

Yes, the statement released by C's lawyer is vague, but have you ever thought about why? I wonder why someone who is a victim of sexual harassment might not want to spill their guts to everyone and anyone. I'm not saying I know everything, but believing a victim is quite literally the bare minimum. (Not to mention, this is a statement through a lawyer, those statements are almost always vaguer than a statement directly from the person themselves.)

I'm not saying I know everything about this, Korea has heavy privacy laws (as they should) so information is not widely available, but I would rather believe someone who says he was victimized than not. We don't know everything that happened but invalidating someone's experiences with sexual harassment is an absolutely wild thing to do.

Also, people can still be sexually harassed even if they're in a relationship.

You can easily argue that trying to paint her as a predator and him as helpless victim is doing just that. However, that is debatable. But my statement was made more for a view of the situation in skating as a whole, which Im sure you agree is not debatable.

 

[saine]

I believe more and more in Haein Lee's innocence. not because the "victim" is a boy, but for the fact that she takes her name and face

Haein Lee identifying herself does not mean that her side of the story is true. It means she decided to make her side of the story public.

 

[triplelutzzzzz]

You can easily argue that trying to paint her as a predator and him as helpless victim is doing just that. However, that is debatable. But my statement was made more for a view of the situation in skating as a whole, which Im sure you agree is not debatable.

I don't disagree with you. Painting people (not just Hae-in) as predators is often sexualization and painting someone as a helpless victim is infantilization, but I would also argue that her being accused doesn't necessarily paint her a predator and being a victim doesn't mean he is/was helpless. My big point I'm trying to make is that believing the junior male should be more important than trying to argue for the innocence of the accused.

 

[CoyoteChris]

So you still think he's been "assaulted"? I think it's more disturbing how quickly some people turn their backs on those two girls being accused.

Bless you.

 

[norwegianfairytale]

A & B's statements seem believable and credible, whereas the C's lawyer made a somewhat evasive statement.

The lawyer says A kissed C on the neck leaving a mark. C did not know what a hickey was and was very embarrassed, so immediately left the room? Hickeys don't really show up absolutely immediately (it's been a long time), then he would have had to have been at a mirror staring at his neck waiting for it to show up. Then if he was confused about the bruising on his neck, he should have asked one of the females they could have said that is a hickey or even used something like google or a Korean equivalent to look up neck kiss left a mark and it would have shown that it was a harmless mark that would eventually go away and not some kind of disease. He's a figure skater and has probably taken heavy falls on his knees and bruises have appeared many times and they eventually go away. Surely he realised the mark was from her sucking on his neck and surely he didn't think it would be there permanently.

This explanation is not credible or believable, whereas everything coming from the two women is credible and makes sense.

Then the lawyer added that the client suffered severe psychological shock due to the incident, he had to see a psychiatrist because it's making it difficult for him to train.

Severe psychological shock? It would be believable if they left it at finding it difficult to train (conflicted feelings maybe about the female, about breaking up, parents won't let him see her, maybe a little distracted so missing his jumps, etc), but I just don't believe severe psychological shock as a result of this hickey. Especially when they express feelings for each other on a messaging app, when they were actually together in the past, when he voluntarily broke the rules to go visit her in the female dorm (you can almost excuse her for interpreting his actions the wrong way).

I hope C can get the help that he needs, but it just seems like the hickey was a trigger for some severe psychological issues that were bubbling away under the surface (no doubt due to figure skating being a pressure cooker of a sport).

The hickey situation wasn´t about a possible bruise in his neck, it was about that he didn´t know what he was consenting to.

She asked if he knew what a hickey was, which he did not know, so she was going to show him what it was, he consented to her showing what a hickey was, without knowing what he was consenting to.
For all we know he thought she was going to show her a tattoo or something. So when she kissed him/suck his neck he was very surprised and left the room right after in shock.

This is literally sexual assaulting, he did not consent when he wasn´t made aware what a hickey was.

Skater C also sent a message upon returning from the camp saying that they should not date and asked her to not contact him again.

Still, on 14th of June, the day the investigation began she contacted him and asked him to date again, secretly. The timing is sus and she contacted him despite he telling her not to. She was not respecting his previous wish.

It started to get really uncomfortable for him when she asked for his support in the case. I guess that is when the physical reaction came.

That they used to date is not an argument for this to be okay if he didn´t feel comfortable with the situation, if Haein thinks this is ok because of earlier relationship then this is grooming.

They way people go out of the way and defend this behavior is wild. The adult gets the benefit of the doubt and speaks the truth, but the minor here is lying about a serious matter like SA? And you choose to believe a skater who has no problem outing private messages for million of followers?

 

[Joekaz]

I don't disagree with you. Painting people (not just Hae-in) as predators is often sexualization and painting someone as a helpless victim is infantilization, but I would also argue that her being accused doesn't necessarily paint her a predator and being a victim doesn't mean he is/was helpless. My big point I'm trying to make is that believing the junior male should be more important than trying to argue for the innocence of the accused.

I have to disagree. As an American I always believe in leaning toward the innocence of the accused. Although unfortunate, having guilty people occasionally go free is preferable to innocent people occasionally being convicted, don't you agree?

 

[LazyFuzai]

Skater B‘s Statement

So both of them are fighting KSU.
Like i say before,this case was already strange because they could only get strong evidences by Skater C reporting it.
So it would be strange he didn't report it further to police.
Now both of them refuse to accept the decision make it super difficult for us to speculate unless we gonna see any evidence which most likely not gonna get public.

 

[Skater Boy]

It is sad how there are so many issues with figure skating = funding, judging, harassments, politics, My mom would say if you can't play nice maybe we should just cancel skating.

 

[triplelutzzzzz]

I have to disagree. As an American I always believe in leaning toward the innocence of the accused. Although unfortunate, having guilty people occasionally go free is preferable to innocent people occasionally being convicted, don't you agree?

I'm also from the US. And yes, it's innocent until proven guilty, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't believe victims. I'm not saying Hae-in is 100% guilty, but I am saying that based on the current information and the victims statements, I have no reason to not believe C.

 

[CoyoteChris]

I think the best thing to do in this situation is to ban the 2 girls for this season only. Then put a restraining order on skater A from contacting skater C until skater C reaches age of consent in 4 more months. However, skater C will have to initiate contact after he turns 16 for the order to terminate. That way no more details need to be disclosed and we and they can move on from this whole unfortunate situation.

I repectfully disagree. One, hold a retrial. If no real sexual assault other than a hard kiss occured without consent and with complaint, and drinking is the major issue, then reprimand them all that drank and put them all on probation with the understanding that any further unauthorized drinking will mean the one year ban. (I have no idea what the definition of sexual assault is in Italy....but what I gather from my lady friends, you better watch your back, so to speak. ) If this "offense" of a kiss happened in Italy, I fail to see what kind of restraining order Korea could put on skater A other than tell her to stay away from any underaged boys in any manner other than respectfully. If Haein has feelings for a person, that are not returned, I feel more sorry for her but yes, she needs to stay away from him at any age if he wishes no contact. Just as we all should to everyone else.

 

[Marty McFlip]

It is sad how there are so many issues with figure skating = funding, judging, harassments, politics, My mom would say if you can't play nice maybe we should just cancel skating.

This sport has not much more problem than the other. Of course, figure skating is not a clean sport at all, but football (for exemple) is worst than figure skating by far (refering, corruption, sexual assault, politics...) and the difference with figure skating is a lot of dangerous person in football are not condamned

 

[Joekaz]

I repectfully disagree. One, hold a retrial. If no real sexual assault other than a hard kiss occured without consent and with complaint, and drinking is the major issue, then reprimand them all that drank and put them all on probation with the understanding that any further unauthorized drinking will mean the one year ban. (I have no idea what the definition of sexual assault is in Italy....but what I gather from my lady friends, you better watch your back, so to speak. ) If this "offense" of a kiss happened in Italy, I fail to see what kind of restraining order Korea could put on skater A other than tell her to stay away from any underaged boys in any manner other than respectfully. If Haein has feelings for a person, that are not returned, I feel more sorry for her but yes, she needs to stay away from him at any age if he wishes no contact. Just as we all should to everyone else.

I agree the punishment of a season for the girls would be harsh, but with all the publicity it would be hard for the KSU to give less.

 

[Joekaz]

I'm also from the US. And yes, it's innocent until proven guilty, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't believe victims. I'm not saying Hae-in is 100% guilty, but I am saying that based on the current information and the victims statements, I have no reason to not believe C.

I can make exactly the same argument for the accused, and since it is innocent until proven guilty, that is the way I lean.

 

[TallyT]

So you still think he's been "assaulted"? I think it's more disturbing how quickly some people turn their backs on those two girls being accused.

I think the level of prurient speculation and abuse is probably (probably, we don't know the factual proof that the KSU used to rule on) overdone but this is going too far in the other direction. They are not girls they are adult women, and the story didn't even break until KSU made their ruling, so what we know is that there was enough proof of acts wrong enough for them to act.

Of course they are denying and minimising, even if they are guilty of something that would have been minimal in my day or something worse, or if they are innocent of the actual acts publicised. People pretty well always do deny what they are accused of.

I was - still am - a fan of Haein's skating, I have videos and pictures saved of both women and no intention in the heat of the moment of deleting them. But that doesn't mean I am going to handwave what was, according to the official body, at the very least sexual harassment.

Has anyone heard from @Ichatdelune? I admit, I am worried because this must be a blow (it was when the Australian mess blew, and I wasn't as attached to him as other skaters)

 

[TontoK]

I think the level of prurient speculation and abuse is probably (probably, we don't know the factual proof that the KSU used to rule on) but this is going too far in the other direction. They are not girls they are adult women, and the story didn't even break until KSU made their ruling, so what we know is that there was enough proof of acts wrong enough for them to act.

Of course they are denying and minimising, even if they are guilty of something that would have been minimal in my day or something worse, or if they are innocent of the actual acts publicised. People pretty well always do deny what they are accused of.

I was - still am - a fan of Haein's skating, I have videos and pictures saved of both women and no intention in the heat of the moment of deleting them. But that doesn't mean I am going to handwave what was, according to the official body, at the very least sexual harassment.

Has anyone heard from @Ichatdelune? I admit, I am worried because this must be a blow (it was when the Australian mess blew, and I wasn't as attached to him as other skaters)

This is a very reasoned post. We may not know all the details, but we know something happened, and it was wrong.

And I am beyond impressed with the Korean federation for addressing this head on. No watering down. No backing down. No "protecting" elite skaters.

If USFSA had taken this approach a long time ago, a lot of pain could have been avoided.