Ladies and quad jumps?

[TGee]

Why do most women who work on quads work on the quad salchow instead of the quad toe?

Especially why would a skater like Evgenia (who can do triple toes in her sleep) work on a 4S instead of 4T?

Good question. :think:

My guess is because many of them use the 3T as their jump for the second spot in 3-3 combos....and so they don't want to risk messing up the triple by training and attempting to compete the Quad.

None of the women mentioned relies on a 3Lo as her second combo jump. The other highish BV choice is s 2A.... A 3Lo-3S would be possible, but it's a difficult combo, and IJS doesn't give bonuses for more difficult combinations, just the value of the two jumps added together....

But there also seems to have been an old school of thought that the first jump at any number of rotations is the sal, and that there is a certain fixed order in which the jumps should be learned...... But my understanding was that this has been falling out of vogue for training fast learners.

We hear that at Cricket skaters, at least the men, start with all the Quad jumps except the axel in the harness and then focus on what is coming easiest. Stephen Gogolev has only competed the 4S, but has training videos of him working in the 4Lz.

And we even see this occasionally in our region for training triples and doubles for skaters who are progressing quickly. The idea is to start on all of them, and once the skater starts landing whichever comes easily, the rest will follow in a domino effect.

 

[Warwick360]

Lil Bet TurSynbaeva definitely is already landing a 4S in training.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BKrXU01ANgX/?taken-by=elizabet_tursynbaeva&hl=en

She's having a tough season, so it could be a while before we see her as a jump innovator in competitions. But absolutely no doubt she can do it.

I still don't understand her low PCS through the competitions, especially in SP. She does the difficult steps, transitions, and a good choreo to boot, and yet she's being dinged like judges have vendetta of some sort.

Also, if she's doing it, I hope she does it when the Olympics arrives as a trump card, with enough rotations of course.

 

[Warwick360]

It has been such a long time since Miki Ando did her quad. Looks like we would have seen a few by now.

After that one success, did Ando ever manage another in a competition?

 

[largeman]

3a-2t was the only way for her to put a 3a in the short program because of the rule, but i remember she had the 3t-3t few years ago and under Tarasova's coaching she landed even the 3ltz-3t (although the lutz was a flutz most of the time)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJHNpasEhf4

But she still had her 3F3T and 3F3Lo around that time, no?

In the 2008-09 season (after she switched to TAT), she kept a 3F-3Lo in the short and no triple-triple in the long. She failed to get the 3F+3Lo ratified all season until Worlds, where she landed a gorgeous one. It would be the last time she did the 3F+3Lo before bringing it back at 2013 4CC. At the 2009 World Team Trophy, she put 3A+2T in the SP for the first time to replace the triple-triple.

 

[TGee]

I still don't understand her low PCS through the competitions, especially in SP. She does the difficult steps, transitions, and a good choreo to boot, and yet she's being dinged like judges have vendetta of some sort.

Also, if she's doing it, I hope she does it when the Olympics arrives as a trump card, with enough rotations of course.

There have been comments on GS that PCS doesn't go up until judges see consistent performances.

And some have also said the PCS "penalty" for juniors moving up to seniors is less this season. But TurSynbaeva moved up last season and still seems to be paying the penalty.

In a recent interview that generated a lot of blowback from Hanyu fans in another thread, Orser said that he has been trying to persuade Bet to do fewer run throughs, but treat them like simulations and to focus on skating clean. And he mentioned with regards to Fernandez, that the strategy was to focus on increasing GOE over BV. So, his preferred strategy would likely not be to add a Quad before she can be consistently clean with her current layout.

But he also believes strongly in skaters having ownership of their strategy. She pushed to move to senior last year, when he had been publicly musing that she could benefit from another year as a junior. So, if her heart set on the Quad, it could be attempted.

 

[nipman]

Maybe I'm wrong, but did I see a junior russian girl try a 3A somewhere this year?

 

[gkelly]

Good question. :think:

My guess is because many of them use the 3T as their jump for the second spot in 3-3 combos....and so they don't want to risk messing up the triple by training and attempting to compete the Quad.

That could be. Also, if they plan two 3Ts (at least one in combo) and a 4T, and then they triple the planned quad in competition, they could end up losing credit for a whole jump.

A 3Lo-3S would be possible, but it's a difficult combo, and IJS doesn't give bonuses for more difficult combinations, just the value of the two jumps added together....

3S at the end of a combo would require a half-loop in between, making it a three-jump combo and thus not legal in a short program. Skaters who are going to train one triple-triple would more likely choose one that they can use in both programs.

I still don't understand her low PCS through the competitions, especially in SP. She does the difficult steps, transitions, and a good choreo to boot, and yet she's being dinged like judges have vendetta of some sort.

I haven't seen her skate live, especially together with the top women. How are her speed, ice coverage, edge depth, etc.? If the skating skills are just good and not yet very good/outstanding, she won't be getting top SS scores. That's not being "dinged" -- it's just not having earned them yet.

And other components tend to be in a similar range as the SS, perhaps partly through judges taking shortcuts or fearing being outside the corridor, but also justifiably through quality of steps, ability to fill the ice and fill the space, etc.

 

[Ophelia]

^Saw her in Boston. She was fast and light relative to Asada, who came right before her. Her edge depth didn't leave an impression on me.

 

[Ares]

I still don't understand her low PCS through the competitions, especially in SP. She does the difficult steps, transitions, and a good choreo to boot, and yet she's being dinged like judges have vendetta of some sort.

Also, if she's doing it, I hope she does it when the Olympics arrives as a trump card, with enough rotations of course.

Maybe she's not just this good yet? I really like Tursynbaeva but I don't think that judges are against her. She just needs to reassure herself more, stay consistent & improve certain aspects of her skating. I agree that her SP is very impressive, LP less
even though it uses one of my favourite soundtracks ever (I would love to see Mao or even Satoko skating to it!). I am not compelled whether still rather raw movement of Elizabet does justice, some things are lost there. She's though really fast. As for Quad Salchow ... those attempts look promising to me.

 

[cheerknithanson]

Maybe I'm wrong, but did I see a junior russian girl try a 3A somewhere this year?

Junior Japanese girl. Rika Kihira. She landed it at her 2nd JGP event this season and became only the 7th lady to ever land a 3A in an international competition.

 

[FlattFan]

apparently Mirai is gonna attempt 3A at US Nationals. https://twitter.com/CoachTomZ/status/805964070730039296 it looks amazing here i gotta say

Holy crap. That's the first time I've seen her fully rotated her 3A. Looked a bit over-rotated even.
Love the height of the jump.

 

[FlattFan]

The men are progressing at neck-breaking pace. The ladiezzzzz are still trying to master 3x3. Kristi would like to come back and show them 3Lutz-3Toe.

If top tier skaters like Yuzuru is learning new quad and putting out new quad, the ladiezzzzz need to step their ladiezzzz azzzes up.

Yuzuru - 4loop
Shoma -4flip
Patrick - 4 sal
plus a host of younger guys going for 4lutz 4 flip etc...

Evgenia needs to put a quad or two in her program at least.
Same with all of the ladies. They are not progressing at all. What they are doing, Kristi was doing 30 years ago. They can't even out jump Midori.

 

[mcq]

What they are doing, Kristi was doing 30 years ago. They can't even out jump Midori.

Wow has it been 30 years ago? You are right, Yamaguchi did 3Lz3T and Ito did 2 3A at the 92 olympics. Which is basically the same thing that the ladies are doing now. Hahah. We even don't have ladies doing 3A this season in the senior field? Mao, Liza and Chartrand all dropped it.

 

[Rissa]

^^^

Hanyu didn't have to relearn his triples when he hit puberty quite the same way the ladies have to. It's really goddamn hard to step it up if your physical body stands in the way.

 

[Ares]

Maybe I'm wrong, but did I see a junior russian girl try a 3A somewhere this year?

Yes there was such and I even came across one clip - still novice eligible iirc but I don't remember which one. Maybe The Finn can help or some russian poster?

 

[yume]

Maybe I'm wrong, but did I see a junior russian girl try a 3A somewhere this year?

Alexandra Trusova
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3cfH6jpgVkQ

 

[TGee]

^^^

Hanyu didn't have to relearn his triples when he hit puberty quite the same way the ladies have to. It's really goddamn hard to step it up if your physical body stands in the way.

Agreed, but I don't think that the research work has been done to figure out an optimal technique for a mature adult female body.

Mishin and Plushenko did many of the experiments that inform the technique of today's male skaters. And Plushenko's body price paid the price (which he has stated in interviews).

The transition in female bodies would likely be less of an impediment if the pre-puberty female skaters were trained in jump technique that is able to still be used after peak growth and puberty.

For the moment, the strategy seems to be to target the late developers to get as high a level of jumps before puberty. But it's only part of the answer. Being a late developer (in terms of timing of growth spurt and puberty) gives skaters additional years to learn higher level jumps and to compete before peak growth takes off.

But as we have seen, and very strikingly among the Russian ladies, this is a fleeting advantage if the jump technique trained into body memory doesn't work for an adult female body. And hoping that a particular teenager will turn out to be slight with relatively narrow hips post puberty seems a poor risk.

So, when I look at the number of excellent women that Mishin has attracted, and the work he is doing with them to keep and advance their jump technique, I'm thinking that one of the great innovators in coaching has decided that is time to take this on. He has three wonderful ladies, with very different bodies working with him now. And so the adjustments and experiments are not just being done with one skater as he did for men. Carolina Kostner has already suscessfully regained jumps.

My bet is that Mishin is already on the path to working it out and adding sustainable high level jump technique for women to his legacy.

 

[Zora]

I think that many of the female skaters simply don't have enough strenght to pull of a quad. If you compare them to gymnasts for example, they have a lot more muscles and I often wonder whether this would be helpful for skaters or not. Gabby Daleman is one of the few skaters who looks close to a gymnast and she has some amazing jumps. Top skaters like Medvedeva, Radionova and Miyahara are really thin and if they had more strength, maybe they would be able to master the quad?

 

[TGee]

I think that many of the female skaters simply don't have enough strenght to pull of a quad. If you compare them to gymnasts for example, they have a lot more muscles and I often wonder whether this would be helpful for skaters or not. Gabby Daleman is one of the few skaters who looks close to a gymnast and she has some amazing jumps. Top skaters like Medvedeva, Radionova and Miyahara are really thin and if they had more strength, maybe they would be able to master the quad?

Actually, I think it is fair to say that Canadian women in general go for a higher level of muscle strength development.

And I've been surprised to find since I started following GS that they garner a lot of very nasty comments because of it, both from fans and some media. (Meagan Duhamel and Tessa Virtue leap to mind as favougite targets for the muscle critiques.)

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/07/27/tessa-virtue-body-image_n_11194928.html

There seems to be a view among a vocal subset of fans that having visible muscle structure is so unattractive as to completely mar a skater's performance. So I'm wondering if the 'can't train like that, she'll get muscles' school of thought is holding back the sport in some federations.

Notwithstanding what seems to be a different perspective on feminin beauty from the current Canadian one that sees strong women as beautiful, I really don't get why folks find certain skaters, who don't have the strength but 'muscle' through modest jumps with huge thrusting movements, more attractive than those who actually have the muscle strength to do bold jumps with lightness in technique.

 

[skatingfan4ever]

Here's thing about Patrick and his jumps. In fact, in general. I've never seen him skate badly in person, only on video. If he makes a mistake, I do think it's partly due to bad ice because he is as solid as a rock and his posture is spectacular. You can't move around the way he does, at the speed his does, unless you have spectacular basics. Who was Patrick's first coach?

Osborne Colson

See this video and this video for Mr. Colson's attitude toward figure skating, as well as adorable young Patrick. In fact, this is where the quote on my profile came from.