Ladies and quad jumps? | Page 4 | Golden Skate

Ladies and quad jumps?

See this video and this video for Mr. Colson's attitude toward figure skating, as well as adorable young Patrick. :love: In fact, this is where the quote on my profile came from. ;)

Thank You, Thank You, and Thank You. This must be where Patrick got his posture and performance quality. When he said, "Cheap Seats" it brought back a flood of memories. Our Ballet Teacher always used to say. "You don't sell it, they won't buy it." When we were rehearsing in a theater, she would always sit, or stand in the back of the theater and tell us watch our posture and keep out heads up so the people in the back could see our faces. She used to remind us that theater tickets were not cheap to people who don't have a lot of money, "Such as yourselves." They deserve a high quality experience when they go to the theater and it's your job to make sure they get one.
 
Wow has it been 30 years ago? You are right, Yamaguchi did 3Lz3T and Ito did 2 3A at the 92 olympics. Which is basically the same thing that the ladies are doing now. Hahah. We even don't have ladies doing 3A this season in the senior field? Mao, Liza and Chartrand all dropped it.

Heck, Ito was doing a 3Lz-3T (and sometimes 3F-3T or a 3T-3T) with 3A at the same LP.
I can see why the "ladiezzz" aren't moving forward - it's just not worth it.
The ISU should address it by giving the 3A and quads a higher base value so it will be worth it.
As quite a few men are doing a quad-it's quite impossible to win without it.
The same should go for the "ladiezzz" - give the 3A a BV of 15pts and watch how more ladies will start doing it.
 
3A and quads are already worth quite a bit more than 2A or triples that skaters could be doing instead.

But only if they're rotated.

Increasing the base values for ladies but still applying the underrotation and especially downgrade rules as they currently exist would not be much of an incentive for ladies who can't quite rotate these jumps to attempt them in competition. All the base value points in the world won't overcome the laws of physics and physiques.

So if you want to change the rules to encourage women to try these jumps that are almost impossible for almost all women to rotate under the current conditions of equipment, gravity, and training methods, the best bet would be to lessen the penalties for underrotation. Maybe even give full credit for jumps that would be called < in the men's event and 70% for jumps 180 to 270 degrees short of rotation.
 
I'd rather improve equipment and training methods than have lower standards for women....

Differential standards really takes away from their achievements. I don't think that it would be a service to the sport at all...And a kind of unspoken tolerance for URs and poor edges on triples in ladies has led to controversy and lack of widespread respect for top ranked ladies since at least Sochi...

But here is another thing that would need to change....the attitude that risk taking or "wildness" is a negative for women in singles skating.

"Go for it courage" in pairs is really respected for the most part [although many fans still hold to a princessy ideal of "femininity" as an essential quality]. And folks aren't saying that they shouldn't try a quad twist or a triple or quad throw that might have a two foot landing....

But in singles, I think some kind of unconscious sexism, that requires a higher level of perfection and consistency and punishes risk taking, may be holding women back from progressing at the technical level.

When male skaters go for the quads, we may get complaints about "splatfests" when they don't make their jumps, or how they have too much two foot skating or empty programs. But not negative comments about how folks "don't like their wildness", or how they can't expect to ever get their PCS up until they have a Medvedeva level of consistency.

If Medvedeva levels of consistency was the standard to get decent PCS for men neither Hanyu, Chan or Ferndandez would ever get more more than mediocre PCS.
 
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In the U.S., watch Alexia Paganini and Kaitlyn Nguyen. Of the current juniors I think they (particularly Kaitlyn) are the ones with the most potential for a quad in the future.
 
I'd rather improve equipment and training methods than have lower standards for women....

Differential standards really takes away from their achievements. I don't think that it would be a service to the sport at all...And a kind of unspoken tolerance for URs and poor edges on triples in ladies has led to controversy and lack of widespread respect for top ranked ladies since at least Sochi...

But here is another thing that would need to change....the attitude that risk taking or "wildness" is a negative for women in singles skating.

"Go for it courage" in pairs is really respected for the most part [although many fans still hold to a princessy ideal of "femininity" as an essential quality]. And folks aren't saying that they shouldn't try a quad twist or a triple or quad throw that might have a two foot landing....

But in singles, I think some kind of unconscious sexism, that requires a higher level of perfection and consistency and punishes risk taking, may be holding women back from progressing at the technical level.

When male skaters go for the quads, we may get complaints about "splatfests" when they don't make their jumps, or how they have too much two foot skating or empty programs. But not negative comments about how folks "don't like their wildness", or how they can't expect to ever get their PCS up until they have a Medvedeva level of consistency.

If Medvedeva levels of consistency was the standard to get decent PCS for men neither Hanyu, Chan or Ferndandez would ever get more more than mediocre PCS.

Can you elaborate a little more on what is meant by comments about "wildness"? Like, what is usually meant when people make that comment? Just wondering because I don't know if I've seen it before, and if I have then I don't recall the context. To me, "wildness" suggests sloppiness, which I dislike in either gender; but I can see how others might have an unconscious bias. When Hanyu gets sloppy, for example, he can be characterized as wild.

Agree though that PCS scoring rewards risk in mens (more quads, more PCS) and consistency in ladies (more clean performances, more PCS), and that may be why we don't see more woman going for a 3A or quad, even if they may be training it in practice. Then again, it seems as though most women struggle with either landing/rotating their triples (Ashley, Elena, Maria, Mirai, Satoko) that would make work on a more difficult jump impractical, and the women with clean jumps have cases of struggling to keep nerves under control (Anna, Gracie) where a fall on a more difficult jump will really cause them to be a mess on everything else.

Evgenia and Liza are the two big exception that come to mind, and Evgenia has no reason to work on any more difficult jumps at the moment, while Liza is indeed working on a 3A.

It'd be cool to see Gabby take on a quad toe. Her UR problems have greatly improved, and while she's inconsistent, she doesn't seem like a headcase per se.
 
Can you elaborate a little more on what is meant by comments about "wildness"? Like, what is usually meant when people make that comment? Just wondering because I don't know if I've seen it before, and if I have then I don't recall the context. To me, "wildness" suggests sloppiness, which I dislike in either gender; but I can see how others might have an unconscious bias. When Hanyu gets sloppy, for example, he can be characterized as wild.

Agree though that PCS scoring rewards risk in mens (more quads, more PCS) and consistency in ladies (more clean performances, more PCS), and that may be why we don't see more woman going for a 3A or quad, even if they may be training it in practice. Then again, it seems as though most women struggle with either landing/rotating their triples (Ashley, Elena, Maria, Mirai, Satoko) that would make work on a more difficult jump impractical, and the women with clean jumps have cases of struggling to keep nerves under control (Anna, Gracie) where a fall on a more difficult jump will really cause them to be a mess on everything else.

Evgenia and Liza are the two big exception that come to mind, and Evgenia has no reason to work on any more difficult jumps at the moment, while Liza is indeed working on a 3A.

It'd be cool to see Gabby take on a quad toe. Her UR problems have greatly improved, and while she's inconsistent, she doesn't seem like a headcase per se.


Good question!

I mentioned "wildness" precisely because it's been hard for me to figure out what folks mean...and it seems to be something folks say about women in a different way than men.

While I have occasionally heard a particular jump of a male skater being described as a bit out of control or "wild", a general characterization of a skater being too "wild" = "out of control" or not sufficiently "in control" seems to be reserved for the ladies.

Anna Pogorilaya, Liza Tuktamysheva, Kaetlyn Osmond, Gabrielle Daleman, Alaine Chartrand seem to get the "don't like the wildness" critique. And of course they are all among the women with mature bodies that have big jumps ....

And the choice of the word "wild" or "wildness" seems to have a subtext of lack of femininity....

Which of course I totally didn't get when I first started following GS....Fierce and wild is not necessarily a negative for female athletes in the Canadian cultural context.

In Canada, girls no less than boys have to make the "hockey or soccer vs figure skating" decision. More than that, we are used to having male and female athletes hold up 2 time OMG bobsled driver Kaillie Humphries [who fought to drive 4 man bobsleds in the men's world cup events] as their model for becoming a champion.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/winter/bobsleigh/kaillie-humphries-boblseigh-history-1.3397016

http://www.cbc.ca/playersvoice/entr...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
 
I'd rather improve equipment and training methods than have lower standards for women....

I'm not actually recommending adopting lower standards for women.

I'm pointing out why there are not many women attempting triple axels and quads in their programs now, and why raising the base value of those jumps will not give any incentive to most women to attempt: because they cannot rotate those jumps enough to avoid downgrades. It makes no difference to a skater who can rotate a maximum of 3.25 rotations in the air whether the base value for 4 rotations is 8 points or 80 points -- she's only going to get credit for a triple, along with negative GOE. Therefore, she's better off doing a triple.

Better equipment and better training may increase the number of girls who are capable of rotating 4 times from, let's say, less than 1% of all junior and senior ladies to maybe 5 or even 10%. And those few ladies would benefit from any increase in the base values and be more likely to take the risk. But the majority of even good jumpers are still going to max out well short of 4 rotations. Female triple axels may increase faster than female quads. And most likely a large percentage of those female triple axels and quads would be done by girls in their early teens, who would then end up scaling back on their jump rotations as their bodies mature.

I do think there are ways that women can push the limits on jumps that don't involve more rotations in the air than the average small athletic woman is capable of (not to mention taller and curvier women who already are more likely to struggle with even 3 rotations).

Some of those advances have already become much more common in the past decade: 3-3, 3-half loop-3, and 2A+3 combinations; more jumps in the second half of program; air position variations; difficult entries; difficult exits; etc. There's still plenty of room to add even more difficulty in those areas, some of which would automatically earn more points and others that might not and therefore would be less attractive.

Other ways of increasing jump difficulty (e.g., 3-3-3 combination) are currently legal and rewarded but are not yet common, perhaps because few skaters can actually count on executing them successfully enough to earn full value and positive GOE.

Other options are not adequately rewarded, if at all, so no one is trying them. If rules were change to build in extra points, then we'd see more skaters attempting them. For example: jump combos or sequences using jumps rotated in both directions; jump combos with triples at the end following any doubles, or a single axel; jump sequences with controlled edge changes and/or turns on the ice between jumps (excluding double threes) without putting the other foot down in between, etc.

Some of those options are available to all skaters to increase their difficulty, whatever their current jump content.

Others are really difficult and would only benefit skaters who excel at the particular skills required. E.g., skaters who have the potential to rotate doubles in both directions would be a minority, and those who have potential to rotate triples both directions might be even rarer than those who have potential to rotate quads.

However quads are already right there in the scale of values with guaranteed reward to anyone who can pull it off.

Because a higher percentage of male bodies have the potential to rotate quads, we'll undoubtedly continue to see more male than female quads even if technological and training advances increase the number of female quads from none to some.

Other areas of pushing jump difficulty might be less dependent on body type, or might even favor more typical female body types, in which case we might see women leading some other directions of envelope pushing ahead of the men.
 
Good question!

I mentioned "wildness" precisely because it's been hard for me to figure out what folks mean...and it seems to be something folks say about women in a different way than men.

While I have occasionally heard a particular jump of a male skater being described as a bit out of control or "wild", a general characterization of a skater being too "wild" = "out of control" or not sufficiently "in control" seems to be reserved for the ladies.

Anna Pogorilaya, Liza Tuktamysheva, Kaetlyn Osmond, Gabrielle Daleman, Alaine Chartrand seem to get the "don't like the wildness" critique. And of course they are all among the women with mature bodies that have big jumps ....

And the choice of the word "wild" or "wildness" seems to have a subtext of lack of femininity....

Which of course I totally didn't get when I first started following GS....Fierce and wild is not necessarily a negative for female athletes in the Canadian cultural context.

In Canada, girls no less than boys have to make the "hockey or soccer vs figure skating" decision. More than that, we are used to having male and female athletes hold up 2 time OMG bobsled driver Kaillie Humphries [who fought to drive 4 man bobsleds in the men's world cup events] as their model for becoming a champion.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/winter/bobsleigh/kaillie-humphries-boblseigh-history-1.3397016

http://www.cbc.ca/playersvoice/entr...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

I'd like to optimistically suggest that "wildness" has less to due with unconscious sexism itself and more to do with the fact that we are comparing ladies to one another and men to one another.

Of the ladies you've listed above, I would characterize Anna (in the past, not now) and Gabby Daleman as having a certain "wildness" to their skating - by which I personally mean sloppy. I'd also probably throw Elena Radionova in there. It's a certain kind of sloppiness, I think, one that also has to do with speed (which is why I might consider Liza a sloppy skater sometimes, but not a wild one).

Anyway, these ladies are being compared to skaters like Evgenia and Satoko - neither of whom I think anyone would ever characterize as either wild or sloppy. They have more immature figures, smaller jumps, less speed, and would probably be described (in opposition to the others you've listed) as precise, delicate, feylike, girlish. There's a lightness to their skating.

Looking at the dichotomy in that way, I would consider the use of wildness - as you've briefly tried to explain it, not my own definition of sloppy - as NOT having a subtext of a lack of femininity, but rather a subtext of a certain TYPE of femininity. A more womanly, even sensual/sexy type. There is a certain kind of maturity that those ladies have that the "delicate" girls don't, both in terms of skating/program style and body type.

Two skaters whom I don't think can be placed as comfortably as either "wild" (mature femininity) or "delicate" (femininity): Ashley Wagner and Gracie Gold. Ashley lacks the big jumps and speed that tend to go along with "wildness," though she's got everything else. Gracie has a mature body, sure, as well as the speed of the "wild" skaters, but she's far too stiff to be considered in either category.

As for people who use "wildness" as a negative critique, it could be linked to one of two things: 1. if you have big jumps and a lot of speed, you're going to be more prone to mistakes = wildness = sloppy. or 2. Some people have a specific feminine ideal of the feylike, delicate waif and find other feminine models unappealing (which is dumb, IMO, as both styles are very positive/good.)

And while I've created this dichotomy to explore possible subconscious impulses we have when we think about skaters, of course all skaters are lovely and different in their own ways.
 
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