Ladies and the value of the 3A

[gkelly]

As soon as two or more ladies start showing successful quads in their freeskates, then there will be a push to change the short program rules to allow it there. I can't see the ISU defining a required SP element to include something they have no reason to believe anyone can do.

I was surprised they allowed the 3A in the ladies' SP as soon as they did. But that was after Asada (and long before her Ito and Harding) had proven it possible for ladies to do 3A+2T combinations in the SP, so using the 3A as the solo axel actually made it easier to include 3A in the SP.

To add a quad to the SP, a lady would need to be able to do it in combination or to do it with preceding steps or other skating moves. We haven't seen that from any lady in a freeskate ever.

A quad will be much more valuable to ladies in the FS than in the SP, because even if they land it on one foot in the SP, if it isn't in combination with a double or triple jump the GOE will be -3, or if it's planned as the solo jump but doesn't have preceding steps the GOE will likely be negative even if the landing is good enough to get positive GOE in a FS.

 

[Mathman]

As soon as two or more ladies start showing successful quads in their freeskates, then there will be a push to change the short program rules to allow it there. I can't see the ISU defining a required SP element to include something they have no reason to believe anyone can do....

To me, the ISU could just as well add "or more" to all of their rules about triple and double jumps, then they are set for all time whether anyone ever jumps a quint or not.

Actually, with respect to the lady's triple Axel, I expect that one of these days we have a breakthrough like the men are undergoing with exotic quads. A number of ladies have made successful attempts at least once in their careers, and not all of these ladies were otherwise jumping prodigies. (Well, every elite skater is a prodigy, but you know what I mean. ). If something can be done, more and more people will want to do it even if the iSU does not make any special effort to reward and encourage this particular skill.

 

[andromache]

I didn't get a chance to listen to this podcast yet but I hope they talked more about things than the 3A. Her legacy is really much more than that imo. Mao received so much criticism over the years for not being consistent with her 3A. But I can't remember any ladies skater with a consistent 3A. Not Ito nor Harding. I remember a blogger made a comparison on all the 3A ladies in history and Mao actually landed the most out of anyone. It's rare because it's super difficult and a risky move. Many male skaters have struggled with the jump, and some former Olympic champions imo.

What makes her unique is that she was just as focused on the aesthetic qualities of skating (positions, lines, extensions, etc.) as she was on that jump. Even during her gloomy TAT years, she was still hitting beautiful positions. That's her unique legacy: the combination of beauty while pushing technical boundaries in her discipline.

Phil and Jackie discussed A LOT of that too. As much as people tend to associate Phil with the "I'm a cranky old man who thinks the US men need more quads" mentality, he has an incredible appreciation for the artistic side of the sport that other skating fans tend to ignore.

I only made the topic about the 3A because there is already one thread dedicated to discussing Mao's legacy, and the 3A and its rarity applies to the future across the entire ladies' discipline.

 

[LRK]

Here's an extract from a recent interview with Anna Pogorilaya:

http://fs-gossips.com/anna-pogorilaya-im-not-perfect-but-i-can-correct-many-of-my-weaknesses/

Alexei Mishin focus on the difficulty and power of the jump. They Wait the awakening of Elizaveta’s triple axel …

– He is the master in this field. I also want everything, but gradually. I tried the axel in three and a half turns, however, landed it half-turned. The worst thing about it is an entry. You wrap yourself in it and do not know in what kind of abyss you’ll fly away. It’s like jumping with a parachute and you think: will it open up or not? Plus one revolution is a new feeling, unfamiliar. Where to open? Where to close? .. But now is not the time to think much about that.

 

[gkelly]

To me, the ISU could just as well add "or more" to all of their rules about triple and double jumps, then they are set for all time whether anyone ever jumps a quint or not.

There aren't even point values for quints in the Scale of Values. No one would bother trying it in competition without knowing that they'd get a lot more points than for a quad.

Once people start landing them in practice, the ISU could add them to the SoV. I don't expect that to happen any time soon. If there's an equipment breakthrough, maybe.

As far as rules, there's nothing forbidding them in freeskates, but the Zayak rule would have to read "jumps of three or more revolutions" to address skaters repeating the same quint.

For short programs, again, I don't expect them to be allowed before two or more skaters are landing them in freeskates.

Actually, with respect to the lady's triple Axel, I expect that one of these days we have a breakthrough like the men are undergoing with exotic quads. A number of ladies have made successful attempts at least once in their careers, and not all of these ladies were otherwise jumping prodigies.

They have always been legal in freeskates and attempted as early as 1984: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyfmcmZVAmo&t=1m54s

For short programs, they were always legal in the jump combination for both sexes (well, not in 1973 or 74 for ladies when double-double combo was required, but no men were doing 3A combinations then either), first allowed as the solo axel for men in 1999 (same year quads were first allowed as the solo jump), first for ladies as solo jump in 2011?

How far away do we want the SP to get from its original apples-to-apples intention?

If something can be done, more and more people will want to do it even if the iSU does not make any special effort to reward and encourage this particular skill.

Can ladies do quad combinations or quads out of steps? Hasn't happened yet. We haven't even gotten a ratified fully-rotated solo quad under IJS; Ando's probably would have gotten a < call.

 

[Mathman]

How far away do we want the SP to get from its original apples-to-apples intention?

I think that the spirit of the CoP is a little bit at odds with the apples-to-apples SP idea in any case. You get the same number of points for doing an element in the SP as in the LP, and then at the end you add all the points together. If the two parts are two separate competitions with separate rules, objectives and competition criteria, it is not easy to see why adding together the two point totals is the right way to determine the overall winner.

I beat you on an apples-toapples basis (by 8 points), but you beat me when "anything goes" (by 9 points). The problem is, my 8 points means something different than your 9 points does.

 

[gkelly]

I guess I feel that if we're eager to see skaters pushing the boundaries on what's possible (or what's possible for one sex that the other has been doing for years), and to see the ISU add rule changes to encourage it, I'd rather see the emphasis on rewarding skills no one else can do in the freeskate before writing them into the short program requirements.

 

[Ares]

I think that current system properly rewards 3A in both singles disciplines. In the past 3A BV was worthy only 7.5 which was too little, moreover ladies could not use it instead 2A in SP which hurt chances of Mao Asada back in Vancouver OG in 2010 as she had to do solo 2A like other ladies, also punishment for underrotation was brutal - jump was downgraded to 2A value, she was punished for going for it and landing it with no problem for crying our loud. It happened to one of two executed Triple axel by Mao in LP in Vancouver. Some people recollect how close was Joannie Rochette to Silver Medal but forget how cruel that system was to Mao Asada, so that Silver medal would have a big asterisk to it.

Giving more points for 3A in Ladies competition is purposeless imo.

 

[NaVi]

No, I do not agree... in fact, I think the 3A is already a bit too overpowered despite few people doing it. There's already enough incentive to do the 3A. One change I might be OK with on on a temporary basis to give more credit for an underrotated 3A... maybe just a BV deduction without the automatic GOE deduction if landed without falling or without a hand down... or something.

 

[NaVi]

Someone else have successuly landed 3F-3lo?

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Alina Zagitova did it after she missed her first combination.

https://youtu.be/nZn13ZPAnIw?t=3m

Elizaveta Nugamanova(her flip usually gets at least a ! though): https://www.instagram.com/p/BS4CjMjBj28/?taken-by=liza_nugumanova_

 

[sarama]

I think that the spirit of the CoP is a little bit at odds with the apples-to-apples SP idea in any case. You get the same number of points for doing an element in the SP as in the LP, and then at the end you add all the points together. If the two parts are two separate competitions with separate rules, objectives and competition criteria, it is not easy to see why adding together the two point totals is the right way to determine the overall winner.

I beat you on an apples-toapples basis (by 8 points), but you beat me when "anything goes" (by 9 points). The problem is, my 8 points means something different than your 9 points does.

Not necessarily.
Especially in pairs where the rules are more restrictive in the SP you can see how much the quality of the elements matters much more in the SP than in the FS. Sui/Han (and Chinese teams in general) are almost unbeatable in that segment despite not doing SBS 3Lz or the throw 3A, just because of the great levels and GOEs they can get. In the FS the situation is much more open, but when you add up the two, what is lost (or gained) in the SP is relevant.
Of course in singles (especially for the men), the SP has totally lost the apples-to-apples comparison aspect, because if you have a 4Lz instead of a 3Lz in the SP, obviously levels and GOEs don't matter much.

 

[gkelly]

No, I do not agree... in fact, I think the 3A is already a bit too overpowered despite few people doing it. There's already enough incentive to do the 3A. One change I might be OK with on on a temporary basis to give more credit for an underrotated 3A... maybe just a BV deduction without the automatic GOE deduction if landed without falling or without a hand down... or something.

That's more or less already true.

If the tech panel calls < on a jump, the base value is lower and the judges are supposed to reduce the GOE by -1 to -2, but the final GOE does not need to be negative, and they are supposed to reward all the good qualities of the element, assuming there are good qualities. (Just landing on one foot is assumed, neither a plus nor a minus.)

So a +1 or +2 for a 3A< that looks nice in real time is perfectly possible.

If we want different scoring rules for ladies' than for men's 3A attempts, maybe add a 1-point bonus to the attempt, regardless of GOE (i.e., even for falls with -3 GOE and fall deduction) assuming the jump is not downgraded (full value or <).

 

[Mathman]

Not necessarily.
Especially in pairs where the rules are more restrictive in the SP you can see how much the quality of the elements matters much more in the SP than in the FS. Sui/Han (and Chinese teams in general) are almost unbeatable in that segment despite not doing SBS 3Lz or the throw 3A, just because of the great levels and GOEs they can get. In the FS the situation is much more open, but when you add up the two, what is lost (or gained) in the SP is relevant.

Of course in singles (especially for the men), the SP has totally lost the apples-to-apples comparison aspect, because if you have a 4Lz instead of a 3Lz in the SP, obviously levels and GOEs don't matter much.

That's a good example. I think what bothers me is more how I feel about "adding" than how I feel about short and long programs. If you add together the length of the Brooklyn bridge and the temperature of the sun, what is the significance of the sum?

Iron Man is a good sport. You run for a while, ride a bike for a while, and swim for a while. Then you add the times of the three races together, with weighting factors if you like.

Biathlon is not a good sport. You ski cross country for a while, than you shoot a a target. Let's say you ski at 40 miles per hour and you hit 12 targets. Let's see now, 40 + 12 = ? It seems like there ought to be a more appropriate way of combining the results. (Factored placements were fine in this regard.)

 

[cl2]

So I think there is enough incentive for ladies who are capable of doing it to do it. I don't think mens and ladies should have differing base values or the same elements, anyways.[/QUOTE]


Don't say those words in Ballet Class........Your teacher will smack you. BRB

It's all about the big "T" I copied the this information from livestrong.com

Testosterones also promote growth of the male muscular system. That is why men are more muscled than women. These muscles are men’s edge to doing more than women can. It also affects and empowers their strength. That includes jumping higher..........

I actually agree with bobbob about not having differing base values by gender. Because then it doesn't just stop at 3As, sheer physical strength or gender.

For example, would you say that men's layback spin should be worth more than women's layback, just because men are less flexible than women?

To be consist with believing that biological differences should warrant different point values for jumps, you must also believe that they warrant different point values in spins and aspects of skating...

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

I think the value of the 3A should be raised a little bit - but across all disciplines not just for the women. That jump is hard even for some men! I do like the idea of federations offering some kind of reward or incentive for attempting (and successfully completing) such hard jumps like quads and 3As (for the ladies).

The first and the only woman to have landed that combo. Mao loved the difficulty. And that has the same same value then the 3lz-3T who is popular
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Ot, but Mao's 3F-3R was sweet! :luv17: She and her ethereal jumps will be dearly missed.

 

[solani]

I think the value of the 3A should be raised a little bit - but across all disciplines not just for the women. That jump is hard even for some men! I do like the idea of federations offering some kind of reward or incentive for attempting (and successfully completing) such hard jumps like quads and 3As (for the ladies).



Ot, but Mao's 3F-3R was sweet! :luv17: She and her ethereal jumps will be dearly missed.

I agree. That a 3A-2T has a lower BV than a 3Lz-3T still rubs me the wrong way.