Ladies Free Skate

[Doggygirl]

RGirl, Gezando and Hockeyfan...

I've REALLY enjoyed reading these posts.

RGirl - this seems very mundane after all of the deeper discussion - but...in answer to a question you asked early on: The technical caller determines the level of the elements for non-jumps, and the description of the jump performed. The judges determine the GOE.

ITA that Sasha has stagnated in many ways. I was trying to put my finger on it, but you described it perfectly. One of my big disappointments this year, which I think is an example reflecting what you are saying, is her WEAK attempt at a Biellmann spin. With all of Sasha's flexibility, line, and ability to do incredible an possibly innovative moves, would she do a craptacular Biellmann in her program? I can understand why other skaters who might be more limited, but CAN achieve a Biellmann position do it. I just don't understand Sasha going this route. This is just IMO one of the clear examples of what I think you are talking about. I'm very sad, because I've been right there with you waiting over the last few years for her to really "come together" with something brilliant - and I believe she has (had?) the talent to do. I don't think this is it. I would never rule her off the podium - she is still IMO a top international skater. I just don't think she's progressed and delivered what I think she is capable of.

Gezando, I don't know anything in detail about music. But I sure enjoy reading your posts about it!! I didn't realize there was so much....trying to think of the right word.....maybe "drama?" or "tongue in cheek?" or something like that where composers use other people's music in unusual ways. (i.e. reversing the notes, turning a revered religious chant into something sinister, etc.). Your post was a great read!!

Hockeyfan, once again your ring side observations are very interestings. Interesting that your description of Mao's 3A was very similar to RGirl's first hand observation of Kulik. This all makes me even hungrier to go see US Nats live for the first time to see these qualities in other skaters first hand.

I sure hope the ISU doesn't start making exceptions to it's own rules. (i.e. Mao and the age limit) My opinion has nothing to do with whether I think this (or any) rule is appropriate or not. If there is one thing I've learned that applies to most things in life - work, sport, relationships, etc. it's that making exceptions and changing things in the middle of the game usually has disasterous results in some form or other. You please one person or group at the expense of pissing off many other people and groups. Just not a good idea.

DG

 

[R.D.]

Seriously, that's how I feel about Sasha's "R&J." It just kind of fades from the eye. There's no strong theme or highlight moves to hook you, to pull you in. And I'm sorry, but you just don't use the Muzak version of "Romeo and Juliet" if you want to skate with the big dogs at the Olympics. Okay, Sasha doesn't know the difference between Rota and Prokofiev (my preference) or Tchaikovsky. But Nicks should know the difference. At Campbell's I thought, "Not as awful as I thought it would be," but it was such a loser competition, it probably looked okay only by comparison.

I agree. There's something missing, I feel. I really do think her programs tend to be zzzzz. But that's just my opinion.

Bottom line: Sasha needs to have skated a program a lot the same way over and over to have a chance of not falling. She either skates a snoozer program as well as she can or she and Nicks or somebody goose the thing up and Sasha skates it with a major flub. Or she surprises the hell out of us all. Statistically, I have to say the Rota "R&J" is a loser. If she gets the bronze at the Olympics, it will be a gift, unless, as I said, she surprises the hell out of us.

I may be the pessimist of all pessimists, but even I think this might be stretching it a bit. I do agree with the program being uncompelling, but IMO she'd REALLY have to botch it up in order to not medal at the Olympics. She may have lost her attack, but IMO she's better now (in terms of the competition she faces, not necessarily her personal progress) than she was four years ago. I think she's looking at bronze at this point, with Irina winning and someone else second (Arakawa, maybe?). Of course, in four months we'll all just look back at this and laugh, because we'd be way off.

But the OGM winner will be someone who goes for it all and is successful. No caution allowed. And frankly, I think even Irina runs the risk of falling into the caution trap because of high external expectations of her.

________________________________

However- I must bring up this other note, being the Devil's Advocate. I remember not expecting Cohen to do well at all at Worlds because of her change, and her average showing at Nationals. But she really went to Moscow and held her own. She didn't fall. And that was enough to earn her second place. I was impressed. I was thinking she would slip down to 3rd or 4th, but she didn't. Of course, only Irina brought her A-game...if others did, the outcome might have been different.

I must point out that it's still early in the season. Very early. A LOT can happen between now and January, let alone late February. I make my observations/predictions based on what's happening RIGHT NOW. I'm not thinking long term here. So, the bottom line is: if I'm Irina, I wouldn't get too overly confident. I would just continue to skate well in all my competitions and rack up those points. If I'm Sasha, I wouldn't give up just yet. It's only November, and you got your program(s) out there. I would go home and really prepare for Nats (as I have well over a month to go), and then bring it on.

In fact, this may sound weird, but IMO the worse you start off, the better you might be later on, actually. Irina needs to be careful not to peak too soon, because if the downhill ride begins before February, someone else just might be on their way up. So, from the way things look NOW, Irina is our OGM winner. But realistically speaking, it's not over yet. Three months IS a long time for weird things to happen, including (gasp) injuries.

 

[R.D.]

ITA that Sasha has stagnated in many ways. I was trying to put my finger on it, but you described it perfectly. One of my big disappointments this year, which I think is an example reflecting what you are saying, is her WEAK attempt at a Biellmann spin. With all of Sasha's flexibility, line, and ability to do incredible an possibly innovative moves, would she do a craptacular Biellmann in her program? I can understand why other skaters who might be more limited, but CAN achieve a Biellmann position do it. I just don't understand Sasha going this route. This is just IMO one of the clear examples of what I think you are talking about. I'm very sad, because I've been right there with you waiting over the last few years for her to really "come together" with something brilliant - and I believe she has (had?) the talent to do. I don't think this is it. I would never rule her off the podium - she is still IMO a top international skater. I just don't think she's progressed and delivered what I think she is capable of.

She still does the Bielmann?

IMO, she really can't do that move well. Irina, Shizuka, and even Alissa Czisny do it much better.

Stagnated. Yes. I think that sums it up. Sasha's on Kwan Road right now. I do think she's improved overall, though, in a span of four years. However, I think the stagnation has only been in the past year or so. She improved (IMO) steadily until the end of the 2004 season, then she basically stagnated through the 2005 season. This is part of why I was surprised to see her win World Silver again.

I think she is being surpassed, though. She just got beat by a newcomer, which hasn't happened to her (IIRC) before. Lucky for her (possibly) Asada won't be at the Olympics. But she and Arakawa are basically neck and neck now, with Irina in full swing. Plus we have potential dark horses waiting in the shadows. As I said before, Irina is the most likely, but after thinking about this, I don't think anyone is guaranteed the OGM at the Olympics.

 

[euterpe]

Really, Irina is the one skater who has not had injuries that held her back for any length of time. She's been very lucky in that respect. Kwan, Cohen, Siguri, Arakawa have all had their share of injuries and/or boot problems that caused injury.

Irina, of course, has health problems. She is well aware of her limitations and has learned to pace herself (which she didn't do last season). She did only the Japanese Invitational (fairly close to home) and not Campbell's this year. I think she learned from last season not to push herself too hard.

I agree that Sasha's programs are not Olympic caliber. "Dark Eyes" is only so-so, but R&J is soporific. The music all on one level, has a draggy tempo, and no drama to work with. It might have made a decent SP, but as a FS it leaves a lot to be desired. It's just---blah.

 

[nymkfan51]

Red Dog ... you can say Sasha is going down Kwan's road, but there is one HUGE difference.
Michelle has a plethora of past performances where she rose to the occasion at just the right moment, and delivered technically and emotionally brilliant programs. She may be in what some folks consider a downswing now, but she has already made her reputation. If she never wins another medal, she is already a legend in her sport for what she has accomplished.
Sasha's problem is she never really got there. She got close, but never quite reached the finishing line ... and now that she doesn't seem to have to worry about Michelle anymore, she's got Irina in the here and now ... and Mao staring her down in the other corner. She needed to get it done before now, IMO.
The road just gets harder for her from here on in.

 

[slutskayafan21]

I will reserve further judgement until seeing the event, but I found Meissner's PCS scores at Campbell's a joke, and they actually slightly increased here. I would only give her something in the low 5s for interpretation, transitions, and skating skills. I dont understand the judges scores for her presentation skills at all, they are through the roof given her ability.
She is the one with the most inflated PCS scores, even moreso than Slutskaya as high as they are. Some judges are obviously swept away in the hype machine and it is sad.

 

[cianni]

Inflated Marks

I hope you understand now how fans see Irinas inflated marks Slutskyafan21. It is discouraging to see skaters get marks not deserved and even though the win was ligit there is an element of cheating in there. Thats why there is so much mistrust of the judging which is corrupting the sport. I know 3 people personally who use to be fans who no longer watch skating due to the perception of corrupt judging. As you see Meissners marks being so inflated there are lots of people who see Irinas just as inflated. It doesnt bode well for the sport.

 

[R.D.]

Really, Irina is the one skater who has not had injuries that held her back for any length of time. She's been very lucky in that respect. Kwan, Cohen, Siguri, Arakawa have all had their share of injuries and/or boot problems that caused injury.

I would say the condition Irina had during 2003-2004 was worse than any injury.

Red Dog ... you can say Sasha is going down Kwan's road, but there is one HUGE difference.
Michelle has a plethora of past performances where she rose to the occasion at just the right moment, and delivered technically and emotionally brilliant programs. She may be in what some folks consider a downswing now, but she has already made her reputation. If she never wins another medal, she is already a legend in her sport for what she has accomplished.
Sasha's problem is she never really got there. She got close, but never quite reached the finishing line ... and now that she doesn't seem to have to worry about Michelle anymore, she's got Irina in the here and now ... and Mao staring her down in the other corner. She needed to get it done before now, IMO.
The road just gets harder for her from here on in

You have a good point. I agree. But I just meant to signify that, like Kwan, she isn't getting any better now. She may not have 2000 gold medals, but it's kind of odd if you consider that she's basically in a very similar situation now. OK, so she has Cop experience and isn't injured (now), but she also has to play catch up. At this point, she'd have to rely on a major botch-up by Irina and possibly Shizuka to get an advantage, and you can't count on that. (Plus, she'd have to actually utilize it, something we haven't seen her do. Doors have been opened for her in the past, but she just hasn't been able to walk through them.) But I also don't think she's getting any worse. One fall isn't the end for her. At least she's gotten to the point where she doesn't fall in basically EVERY program like she once used to. But she does make little mistakes here and there that tend to work against her. The only way I see her doing really well at the OLYs is if she skates first. Then she doesn't have time to worry about how the other performers did and how she can match up. It's a caution thing.

 

[Mathman]

I will reserve further judgement until seeing the event, but I found Meissner's PCS scores at Campbell's a joke, and they actually slightly increased here. I would only give her something in the low 5s for interpretation, transitions, and skating skills. I dont understand the judges scores for her presentation skills at all, they are through the roof given her ability.

Kimmie seems to be one of those skaters who is more impressive live than on TV. People who have seen her live, even just in exhibitions, often come away with a stronger feeling about her performancing and interpretive skills.

Interesting, Irina also is a skater that you have to see in person fully to appreciate. The power of her stroking, her coverage of the ice, etc., are lost on TV.

MM

 

[slutskayafan21]

I hope you understand now how fans see Irinas inflated marks Slutskyafan21. It is discouraging to see skaters get marks not deserved and even though the win was ligit there is an element of cheating in there. Thats why there is so much mistrust of the judging which is corrupting the sport. I know 3 people personally who use to be fans who no longer watch skating due to the perception of corrupt judging. As you see Meissners marks being so inflated there are lots of people who see Irinas just as inflated. It doesnt bode well for the sport.

They both probably get inflated scores for differing reasons. I dont know what solution one proposes though, no system will rid judges of biases and other factors that contribute to skewered scoring. The new system is pretty good for the technical elements scoring, but to solve how to score the more liberal presentation/overall performance parts with full integrity is a more complex issue. Maybe if the World Skate Federation had succeeded in their quest to take over the sport, but in retrospect they didnt have a prayer from the start, they didnt even really get off the ground or come close to challenging the ISU did they?

 

[slutskayafan21]

Kimmie seems to be one of those skaters who is more impressive live than on TV. People who have seen her live, even just in exhibitions, often come away with a stronger feeling about her performancing and interpretive skills.

Interesting, Irina also is a skater that you have to see in person fully to appreciate. The power of her stroking, her coverage of the ice, etc., are lost on TV.

MM

Well I saw her at Campbell's and I did not see the presentation improvement that justified her PCS scores there personally, and I wouldnt imagine what would have changed in a month to change my mind that much, although like I said I will reserve official judgement until seeing the performance.

You are a very credable and fair-minded individual so though so if you say Meisnner's interpretation and performance abilities are much better in person than on TV I will take your word for it. For me the power and command of the ice Irina has, that compensates somewhat to some for not being as polished perhaps as Kwan or Cohen is very evident, but that might be my personal attachment to her.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Kimmie seems to be one of those skaters who is more impressive live than on TV. People who have seen her live, even just in exhibitions, often come away with a stronger feeling about her performancing and interpretive skills.

Interesting, Irina also is a skater that you have to see in person fully to appreciate. The power of her stroking, her coverage of the ice, etc., are lost on TV.MM

Mathman - I am saving that topic for the loooong summer months on which skaters are best LIVE and which are best on TV and which are BOTH.

Kimmie is definitely LIVE. She is a very sweet skater and like all little girls your heart goes out to her.

Irina is very good LIVE. Her body shape is not so awkward as it appears on TV and one can grasp the joie de patinage she exudes.

Joe

 

[Rgirl]

I remember an interview with Anton Sikhuralidze when he talked about how he and Elena were different from Salle and Pelletier. Rather than talking about technical differences in preparation, he talked about how Moskvina would take him and Elena to theaters and museums to get inspired about upcoming programs.

Oh, if only, if only US coaches would do that with our skaters, or at least the ones who need it. Sasha needs it, but now it's too late, at least for this season.

BTW, Tamara Moskvina is one of my skating heroes. She and I were both at the Goodwill Games in '98. I wrote her a note saying she was my hero, etc. along with a rose and asked an usher to pleast give it to her. I don't know if she ever got it, but there it is.

Rgirl

 

[Mathman]

You are a very credable and fair-minded individual so though so if you say Meisnner's interpretation and performance abilities are much better in person than on TV I will take your word for it.

What a nice thing to say. If only I deserved it! Michelle is the greatest, LOL!

But actually, about Kimmie, I am going by what other people have said (for instance Rgirl -- now there's someone who really is infuriatingly fair-minded, LOL.)

Regarding Irina, I became a fan when I saw her -- twice -- blow Michelle off the ice in the annual Marshall's cheesefest. Even the fanatically pro-Michelle (second choice, pro-Sasha) audience had to give it up for the girl!

MM

 

[Rgirl]

Huh? Who are you talking about?

Baiul was the 1993 world champion (and European silver medalist, and fourth-place finisher at 1992 Nation's Cup IIRC). When she won the 1994 Olympics she was in her second season of senior ladies skating.

Lipinski was the 1997 world champion and had also won the Champions Series (Grand Prix) Final, which means she had also been on the senior circuit in fall 1996. She had also competed at 1996 Worlds, but had been doing junior competitions (Junior Worlds) in fall 95. So depending how you look at it, when she won the 1998 Olympics she was either in her second or third season of senior ladies skating.

Hughes, of course, thanks to the Junior Worlds medal age loophole that no longer exists, had been going to Worlds since 1999 (but had been junior in fall 98) and the senior Grand Prix since 1999-2000. When she won the 2002 Olympics, she was in her third or fourth season of senior ladies skating.

You are absolutely right about everything and once again, I am absolutely wrong. And I even remember Tara and Sarah's previous years of senior competition, including going to Worlds. I don't know what's wrong with me. But Gkelly, I certainly appreciate your corrections.

Gkelly, would you please be my "master at arms"? You know, I'll PM my posts to you before I submit them, just the ones that have what I believe to be factual information, and you would correct them. I'd pay you. Name your price. Do you take PayPal?

Just kidding of course. Whatever is wrong with me, I just have to stay away from including what I think are facts in my posts. My very, very, very, very big mistake and apologies. Thanks again, Gkelly. (Rgirl bowing) I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy! LOL.

Seriously, I appreciate your correctioons and they way you write them in a classy way.

But I think I was right that if Asada does skate at the Olympics and wins, she would be the fourth 15 or 16-year-old in a row to win the Ladies OGM, no?

Many Thanks,
Rgirl

 

[Rgirl]

Rgirl - couldn't have said it better. You summed up (well, ok, maybe wrote a book about ) how I feel about Cohen at this point. I just don't think she is good enough in the field that is out there right now. I seriously think it would be a shocker if she wins.

Thanks, Red Dog, you DARD you, LOL. (Devil's Advocate Red Dog.)

And hey, that's ony the first chapter.

Rgirl

 

[Mathman]

Seriously, I appreciate your correctioons...

"Corrections."

(signed) GKelly's apprentice.

 

[Rgirl]

.......RGirl - this seems very mundane after all of the deeper discussion - but...in answer to a question you asked early on: The technical caller determines the level of the elements for non-jumps, and the description of the jump performed. The judges determine the GOE.......

I appreciate that you enjoy reading my posts. I only quoted this part of your post because it concerned me and it saves space. THANK YOU for clarifying who determines what in the COP judging. I feel as if one day I'm sure of it and the next day I'm not.:scratch:

Thanks again.
Rgirl

 

[Rgirl]

Gezando,
I join others in saying that is a great post! I loved reading it. I have a CD with the Chopin Cto. #1 on if in the NON-symphonic version, but I haven't listened to it in years and it's been on loan to a friend since last spring.

When I would watch Shizza's LP, I'd think, "What's wrong here?" re the music,:scratch: even though I still loved her program So I just chalked it up to whatever is making me so forgetful lately.

Not only did you provide the answer to the thing that's been bugging me about Shizza's LP music, but you also wrote a fascinating discourse on both the Chopin and the Variations on a Theme by Paganini, which, BTW, I actually choreographed a dance piece to about 20 years ago (the Lutoslawski and selections from the Brahams Paganini variations). I had a blast doing it.

Anyway, loved it, loved it, loved it.:agree:

Rgirl

 

[gkelly]

But I think I was right that if Asada does skate at the Olympics and wins, she would be the fourth 15 or 16-year-old in a row to win the Ladies OGM, no?

Yes, she would.