Ladies Free Skate

[Particle Man]

So if we make excuses, and if we also focus only on the short program, she is the "top lady." Got it.

 

[LeCygne]

So if we make excuses, and if we also focus only on the short program, she is the "top lady." Got it.

Okay, so she screwed up her chances of definitively being "top lady" after Junior Worlds (in the SP, might I add). We get it. So she may not be the "top lady," if there is such a thing right now, but we're just pointing out accomplishments that no other current US lady can claim to have at this point. Like it or not, Caroline has the best ISU record so far, not to mention the highest PB, IIRC. That may not make her "top lady" by your standard, but it's gotta count for something.

 

[Eurofan]

oooooooh you're sassy!

My favorite of the American girls right now is Ashley, although I think Mirai will end up the top lady in a few years time, pound for pound she is the most talented IMO.

"sassy" is a much nicer word than I would use.
ITA with you about Mirai. I can't wait for next season.

 

[demarinis5]

Okay, so she screwed up her chances of definitively being "top lady" after Junior Worlds (in the SP, might I add). We get it. So she may not be the "top lady," if there is such a thing right now, but we're just pointing out accomplishments that no other current US lady can claim to have at this point. Like it or not, Caroline has the best ISU record so far, not to mention the highest PB, IIRC. That may not make her "top lady" by your standard, but it's gotta count for something.

I agree. 1 bad short program is just 1 bad short program and it is certainly does not diminish Caroline's success this season.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

No it doesn't get a base score of a triple if it is under-rotated - have you been so obsessed with the WET that you missed the other outcry du jour - the double penalty for under-rotations?

Do you actually have any suggestions for how to fix the system rather than simply crying foul?

If you do what's your suggestion then for a toe-loop jump that rotates two and half times in the air? What do you do with base mark and what do you do with GOE?

Ant

I am obsessed with WETs because it does not fulfill the definition of the attempted jump. I've made suggestions ad nauseum to use the Zayak Rule if the flutzer or the lipper has already done or will do a flip or lutz.

Objections to using the definitions of elements comes from skaters who can not do a proper lutz and never will, or from coaches who are unable to get some pupils to do a proper lutz. Isn't that so? Of course, the faulty skaters will be in a much better position to show triples as he already has with a loop, toe loop, and a salchow so why not show the tired old triple again? but not with an counter rotation - can't do it.

 

[chuckm]

Lipping is just as prevalent as flutzing, especially among European ladies. Few men flutz, but many men lip. Isn't not being able to do a proper flip as egregious as not being able to do a correct lutz?

 

[oleada]

They're equally punished within the system.

 

[lcd]

While it may be 'frustrating' to some that there is no clearly defined 'top lady' I kind of enjoy the fact that there is sufficient competition to make events interesting.

Where I DO find it frustrating from a bigger picture standpoint, is that beyond the realm of the serious skating fan, the lack of a clear "face" for the broader public, a "champion" who can be marketed as such, the sport has limited prospects for emerging at a higher profile, than just the every four year "4 minutes" of attention.

 

[mskater93]

They're equally punished within the system.

I believe antman is making a point with Joe who has a crusade against flutzing. Correct me if I am wrong, ant.

 

[berrycute]

"sassy" is a much nicer word than I would use.
ITA with you about Mirai. I can't wait for next season.

I just hope (for the USA's sake) she doesn't end up skating for Japan! That seems a pretty consistent rumor....A trio of Asada, Ando and Nagasu would be pretty formidable, though!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Lipping is just as prevalent as flutzing, especially among European ladies. Few men flutz, but many men lip. Isn't not being able to do a proper flip as egregious as not being able to do a correct lutz?

I believe, from experience a hundred years ago, that when the Lutz is hit just perfectly, one soars into the air. It has that extra push that probably attract the Men. (Even good lutzers do not always hit that special toe-off spot to soar.)

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I believe antman is making a point with Joe who has a crusade against flutzing. Correct me if I am wrong, ant.

He certainly is. No problem. I've explained the defenders of the flutz.

 

[Mathman]

If you read Joe's posts, you will see that he is utterly consistent in shining an accusatory spotlight on aspects of the scoring system that allow and encourage skaters to get away with bad skating technique.

Here are two examples.

1. Consider the skater who, as a beginner up through novice, never learns how to do a proper Lutz (and his coach doesn't make him learn it, either.) This skater is only interested in becoming the next precocious jumper -- being able to do triples at age 11, etc.

Now she is a senior. She does 2 curved-approach flips (3F) and 2 straighter-approach flips (3fLz) in every program, taking the slap on the wrist for a couple of "e's", and the CoP rewards her with huge scores. :disagree:

Examples are Sarah Huges and Mao Asada. (Mao -- the all-time precocious 13-year-old jumping bean -- deserves credit from trying to work her "e" down to a "!", although her coach, Morosov, chose instead to blame the ISU for giving any penalty at all and for expecting skaters to relearn their technique if it is faulty.)

2. Then there is the skater who can do a pretty good double Lutz, correctly off a well-defined outside edge. But when it comes to a triple, because of the counterrotation which requires perfect timing and a certain amount of upper body strength, she has a hard time making the rotations if she holds her edge all the way to take-off.

So ner dilemma is: Shall I cheat the take-off and make the rotations or should I hold the edge and take a chance on getting hit with a downgrade?

The CoP makes the choice clear. Do whatever is necessary to get those 2.75 rotations. Nothing else really matters -- certainly holding the outside edge doesn't.

So here are two instances where the CoP actually encourages skaters to flutz, and (relatively speaking) rewards them for doing so.

 

[Hsuhs]

(Mao -- the all-time precocious 13-year-old jumping bean -- deserves credit from trying to work her "e" down to a "!", although her coach, Morosov, chose instead to blame the ISU for giving any penalty at all and for expecting skaters to relearn their technique if it is faulty.)

Wonder, how you prefer to spell 'Arutunian'.

 

[oleada]

Mao's never been coached by Morosov - the coach who complained about her flutz deduction was Aruntunian. Orser was another coach that also was incensed when his student (Kim) was hit with a ! for her flip and a downgrade on the triple-triple.

Mao's actually managed to fix her flutz, for the most part - she didn't even get a ! on her lutz at NHK nor at 4CC, so kudos to TAT for that.

Morozov did retool and fix Miki's lip after she won Worlds. She now does it off the proper edge and hasn't received an edge deduction in a long, long time. She's one of the few women who does the flip and lutz from the right edges.

 

[antmanb]

I am obsessed with WETs because it does not fulfill the definition of the attempted jump. I've made suggestions ad nauseum to use the Zayak Rule if the flutzer or the lipper has already done or will do a flip or lutz.

Objections to using the definitions of elements comes from skaters who can not do a proper lutz and never will, or from coaches who are unable to get some pupils to do a proper lutz. Isn't that so? Of course, the faulty skaters will be in a much better position to show triples as he already has with a loop, toe loop, and a salchow so why not show the tired old triple again? but not with an counter rotation - can't do it.

Wow you really are obsessed with the wrong edge take off - you completely ignored everythig in my post (which was about downgrades in case you missed it!).

And I must have missed the suggestions you made because I haven't seen you write anything other than mark the edge it took off from - which doesn't really deal with the issue of a wrong edge take off for a flip - which if you makr it as a lutz would mean it gets more points for being an incorrectly executed flip.

No worries - bang on about wrong edge take offs even when they're not being discussed. :scratch:

Ant

 

[antmanb]

I believe antman is making a point with Joe who has a crusade against flutzing. Correct me if I am wrong, ant.

You got it in one! More frustrating is the fact I was asking about downgrades not wrong edge take offs.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

I just hope (for the USA's sake) she doesn't end up skating for Japan! That seems a pretty consistent rumor....A trio of Asada, Ando and Nagasu would be pretty formidable, though!

If Nagasu couldn't crack the top five in the US I think she'd struggle even more to achieve the same thing in Japan where the field is deeper.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

So here are two instances where the CoP actually encourages skaters to flutz, and (relatively speaking) rewards them for doing so.

The thing that i find beyond :banging: is that this IS. NOT. ABOUT. THE. FLUTZ.

It is about ANY jump that takes off from the WRONG EDGE.

In reality therefore (since toe walley and toe-loop are treated the same and have been for years, and both loop and salchows done on wrong edges are virtually impossible to do - otherwise we would have seen triple walleys and triple toe-less lutzes) the rule applies to two jumps only - the flip or the lutz.

Many people have looked at the way COP scores these errors - particularly gkelly, and have explained the reductions that apply to the Base Mark.

Joe seems to only be suggesting that you look at the take off edge and nothing else to determine the definition of the jump. That solution simply does not work. (Before you even reach the arguments that it would stop skaters with an issue from a attempting them for Zayak violation reasons.) It penalises skaters who change edge on their lutz but it rewards skaters who change edge on their flips. That cannot be a "solution" since it solves nothing. Any solution to the problem has to address both problems.

So calling the jump only by the edge at the split second of take off doesn't work. What other suggestions are there?

Ant

 

[Andalusia]

Caroline's FS and a cute fluff piece in HD:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSro7X-2jeA

Technically, this is the best I've seen her perform all season. I'm not noticing the extraordinary slowness at all, and her jumps look higher and cleaner than I've ever seen them. It's funny how Caroline's best skates (from a technical standpoint, including the 3-3) seem to come at the end of the season at World Juniors. The same was true last season. This is good news, as it tells me she trains to peak at the right time.

It was sad to see her crying at the end of the SP, as she always looks so chirpy. Looks like she used that as motivation to kick some butt in the LP, something that thankfully seems to be a trend with her.