Ladies' Long Program

[Andalusia]

If a jump is downgraded there will be a < symbol beside it

Thank you. So, Caroline had five out of seven triples downgraded...she's lucky she wasn't facing even tougher competition at this competition or she'd have been decimated.

If rulings this stringent aren't applied at the next World Championships, I'm gonna be very pissed. Especially if Mao still flutzes and doesn't get penalized for it.

 

[feraina]

I think Caroline needs to hit the gym and build up some leg and back muscles. She was so slow in her LP today, I couldn't fully enjoy it just worrying about how the judges will ding her on the PCS! Turned out her PCS's were quite okay (though this must be her slowest LP in the last two years), but her lack of speed resulted in all these <'s.

 

[emma]

Miki Ando = She is not in good shape. Not sure about Carmen. She has to work on it. The program was mediocre, but not bad.

It's hard to know if it's the program or the shape Miki is in...I keep hearing rumors that she is injured and do sincerely hope that isn't the case. I think the beginning of the program is fabulous, and the dress is wonderful for her and the music. Imagine if she does put that 4sal in - I believe it would be around the second jumping pass...that would be a wow! opening. Even if not, if she could keep that seductive stare AND the energy up, all while skating clean while nervous, I think this will be a very good program for her.

 

[Vash01]

For the first competition of the year the skaters did a very respectable job, and not just the ladies. These are brand new programs; they are still thinking through them, and yet they delivered them reasonably well. I would even say that about kimmie and miki. They will get better as the season progresses.

By the time the nationals roll around, these are going to be so much better.

 

[museksk8r]

I also meant to throw in too that under COP, Nancy Kerrigan would be the 1994 Olympic gold medalist too, no doubt.

 

[oxade21]

I totally agree. But it should also be "rational" -- such that when people see the final placements, while they may not understand or agree with the actual numbers, they can at least more or less agree with the placements in most situations. Otherwise, how can this sport possibly attract TV viewers?

I'm not saying I definitely disagree with the final placements in this competition (though I'm unsure Miki should beat Caroline, or Emily should beat Mira), but that was partly due to the fact that the performances were different enough in quality on the whole, that just how many jumps got downgraded or the "e" deduction didn't really matter so much in terms of placement. What if it was a tight competition like the last WC? Then it could really matter a lot.

We haven't seen how Mao or Yu-na will fare under this new technical martial era yet. Before people hand them the WC gold & silver on a plate, let's first see how those do. My first thought is that Mao's 3A and 2A/3T are both in danger.

I agree with most of your comments, some of those punishments are a tad harsh. They are obviosuly trying to address the situation with cheating but need to come up with some solution how to explain all those judging to average viewers. I am sure they will find the way.
BUT I am suspecting that this draconian measures might have been one event thing. I DO HOPE that this is not be selective situation and the same downgrading will apply to some favorites as well. You mentioned Mao- Kim and I agree that Ya-Na's abilities should be aknowledged and Mao's cheating stopped as early as possible so she can work a tad harder on that.

 

[gio]

Kimmie Meissner = Zhang beats her in performance, carriage, presence... Background music, same as Miki Ando. Not impressed at all. Miki Ando should have been in first place.
I don't like the costume.
Zhang beats Meissner and Hughes also in the costume choice.

 

[Vash01]

It's hard to know if it's the program or the shape Miki is in...I keep hearing rumors that she is injured and do sincerely hope that isn't the case. I think the beginning of the program is fabulous, and the dress is wonderful for her and the music. Imagine if she does put that 4sal in - I believe it would be around the second jumping pass...that would be a wow! opening. Even if not, if she could keep that seductive stare AND the energy up, all while skating clean while nervous, I think this will be a very good program for her.

I read that Miki had an injured shoulder earlier. My guess: It may not have healed completely or it may have limited her jump practces.

 

[gio]

It's hard to know if it's the program or the shape Miki is in...I keep hearing rumors that she is injured and do sincerely hope that isn't the case. I think the beginning of the program is fabulous, and the dress is wonderful for her and the music. Imagine if she does put that 4sal in - I believe it would be around the second jumping pass...that would be a wow! opening. Even if not, if she could keep that seductive stare AND the energy up, all while skating clean while nervous, I think this will be a very good program for her.

I agree! The music now is background. But she will work on it. Great costume, energy and seductive stare. Great step sequence too.

 

[Andalusia]

After seeing the judges had out es and <s like mad, I think Yu-Na is going to be a very happy camper

Lol, me too. I'd be glad - I think Yu-Na's wonderful. I like her triples even better than Mao's, and her 3/3 is out of this world.

I just hope Caroline takes a look at the protocol sheet to get an idea of what she should be working on. She might be too young to understand, so at least her coach should be very much in the know.

I now realize the girl has a LOT of issues to deal with, but ditto with those who said she's got presence in spades.

 

[gio]

Kimmie PCS are inflated. Zhang was much much better in PCS.

 

[passion]

Congratulations to Mira! 4th place finish is the best she's ever done on Grand Prix circuit. Sounds like huge improvements on both technical and program component. She's gotta be really proud of herself. When she listens to the coach and not Mama Leung things will go well for her. Did anyone notice that she got 2nd highest technical mark after Miki Ando? That is a great achievement. Now she needs to work more on the second mark, but they were definitely better than her past. I expect she will place even better on her next competition because the skaters there are not so fierce as Skate America. Good for Mira!

I think she needs to get rid of the pink panther program. I don't think that program does much for her artistically.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think people are okay with the flutzing -- at least even the average TV audience can see a wrong edge take-off (though they don't know whether a jump should be on an inside or outside edge, unless told by the commentator, and even so they may not know what "inside" or "outside" means!).

Not all PEOPLE are ok with the flutzing. The definition and creator of the jump (from wikipedia) =

The Lutz is a figure skating jump, named after Alois Lutz[1] , an Austrian skater who performed it in 1913. It is a toepick-assisted jump with an entrance from a back outside edge and landing on the back outside edge of the opposite foot.

Unfortunately, if you do not follow the definition on the take off, the ISU judges will give you the base value with a -1 in the CoEs.

But the downgrades! You can't see the reason for them sometimes even in slow-mo. Even the commentators, who are former olympic medalists, are saying "whistle-clean" at Caroline's SP 3/3 (the judges actually gave her decent GOE's, including 1 zero, and a couple of -1's, which you don't normally see when a jump is under-rotated, when the judges tend to all give -2's).

However, if the ISU Technical Assistant says it was short-of-landing, as opposed to wrong take-off, the judges must judge it on a lesser jump for overrotation. Some more rational judges, imo, give higher GoEs if they believe the Tech Asst was in error

I have sat in every angle of the Arenas and the best way to see a proper landing is with the skater back to you. Sometimes when the skater is in front of you, but never from a side view. That's just my experience.

 

[passion]

Caroline Zhang should be proud of her first attempt at the senior grand prix expecially when it comes to dealing with all the pressure and hype. I am sure she will learn a lot of things from this experience and hopefully, go home and fix her problems.

 

[gio]

I think Caroline needs to hit the gym and build up some leg and back muscles. She was so slow in her LP today

ITA, that will help her in speed and jumps,

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think people are okay with the flutzing -- at least even the average TV audience can see a wrong edge take-off (though they don't know whether a jump should be on an inside or outside edge, unless told by the commentator, and even so they may not know what "inside" or "outside" means!).

Not all PEOPLE are ok with the flutzing. The definition and creator of the jump (from wikipedia) =

The Lutz is a figure skating jump, named after Alois Lutz[1] , an Austrian skater who performed it in 1913. It is a toepick-assisted jump with an entrance from a back outside edge and landing on the back outside edge of the opposite foot.
Unfortunately, if you do not follow the definition on the take off, the ISU judges will give you the base value with a -1 in the GoEs.

But the downgrades! You can't see the reason for them sometimes even in slow-mo. Even the commentators, who are former olympic medalists, are saying "whistle-clean" at Caroline's SP 3/3 (the judges actually gave her decent GOE's, including 1 zero, and a couple of -1's, which you don't normally see when a jump is under-rotated, when the judges tend to all give -2's).

However, if the ISU Technical Assistant says it was short-of-landing, as opposed to wrong take-off, the judges must judge it on a lesser jump for overrotation. Some more rational judges, imo, give higher GoEs if they believe the Tech Asst was in error

I have sat in every angle of the Arenas and the best way to see a proper landing is with the skater's back to you. Sometimes when the skater is in front of you, but never from a side view. That's just my experience.

 

[GoldMedalist]

Caroline upper body is twisted so it may look fully rotated,but if you go by where the blade leaves the ice I think it obvious even in real time.

Yep, exactly.

But the downgrades! You can't see the reason for them sometimes even in slow-mo. Even the commentators, who are former olympic medalists, are saying "whistle-clean" at Caroline's SP 3/3.

The commentators are bad. #1 -- I'm 99.9% sure that I know more about the technical aspects of present-day figure skating than any of them do; #2 -- they cater to the audience...if a jump looks clean to the untrained eye, they are going to say "oh, nice, good job".

I'm all for these downgrades. It really shows you how valuable a clean 6-Triple + Double Axel Program from Michelle Kwan was. What we need, though, is a rule that EXPLICITLY defines the exact point at which a jump takes-off and when it lands, and how much rotation a "Triple" jump should be required to have in the air for it to be seen as a real Triple jump.

I totally am in agreement. Just think had this judging system been in place at the 1998 Olympics and the 2002 Olympics how things would have turned out. Michelle would be the '98 gold medalist over Tara's cheats and flutzes and Irina or Michelle would likely be the '02 gold medalist over Sarah Hughes who would have been appropriately marked down in her SP for her cheats and flutz and likely would not have made the final group in the LP.

None of the jumps Tara or Sarah did were more than a quarter turn cheated. They would have received high marks. Lots of Tara's jumps, in fact, had perfect rotation. Losing a point or two for a Flutz isn't so bad when you have multiple Triple-Triple combinations and your strongest competitor has 0.

 

[netnuts]

The commentators are bad. #1 -- I'm 99.9% sure that I know more about the technical aspects of present-day figure skating than any of them do; #2 -- they cater to the audience...if a jump looks clean to the untrained eye, they are going to say "oh, nice, good job".

0.

Arrogant to extreme. Need we say more? We know you hate her... This sort of bashing is just ridiculous.

 

[slutskayafan21]

None of the jumps Tara or Sarah did were more than a quarter turn cheated. They would have received high marks. Lots of Tara's jumps, in fact, had perfect rotation. Losing a point or two for a Flutz isn't so bad when you have multiple Triple-Triple combinations and your strongest competitor has 0.

1 of Sarah's two triple-triples was horribly cheated, definitely would have been downgraded. I wouldnt be surprised if her lutzes were ruled to take off the wrong edge causing 1 to be downgraded too.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Losing a point or two for a Flutz isn't so bad when you have multiple Triple-Triple combinations and your strongest competitor has 0.

It's ok with the ISU if you disregard the definition on the take off but a skater will get a -1GoE, a pittance for not doing a jump properly.

However,for not landing it properly according to definition, the ISU punishes severely. That rationale has never been explained except it exists and no one dares to challenge it.

Joe