Ladies Short Program (will there be another judging fiasco?)

[fourclover]

I also have to say that after watching her LP at CoC, I don't think Yu-Na is a particularly graceful skater. I think she uses her arms the best out of anyone else there is, and I think she possesses musicality, but many of her positions are actually quite sloppy and unfinished. Nowhere near the category of Emily Hughes, but not even close to being sufficiently Sashaesque. Yu-Na does, however, land her jumps very lightly and gracefully.

Come to think of it, Mao is much more graceful in terms of positions than Yu-Na is.

The grace and elegance I'm talking about has nothing to do with skating positions.

 

[feraina]

I don't think Caroline will ever have that something that Mao and Yu-na does. I don't think Caroline will have Yu-na's lines or the way she carries herself when she's seventeen.

I think this is all quite subjective, isn't it? I mean, expressing one's preference/support for one skater versus another is one thing, but predicting what someone will be like three years from now, when she's only 14?! Besides, she never said she wanted to be Yu-na, Caroline's always said that she wants to be like Michelle! I think if she did grow to be rather like Michelle at 17, it'll be dream come true for her.

Besides, we can't even predict results of the next competition correctly. Who can predict what will happen to anyone in three years?! Remember, the ice is slippery...

 

[slutskayafan21]

Ah. You think Caroline will be World Champion at 15. She will win five world championships, two Olympic medals and 9 U.S. championships, and she will stand on the World podium 9 straight times.

Caroline fans hope you're right!

I didnt think a skater could even attend the World Championships at 15 anymore.

 

[mizu_iro]

I also have to say that after watching her LP at CoC, I don't think Yu-Na is a particularly graceful skater. I think she uses her arms the best out of anyone else there is, and I think she possesses musicality, but many of her positions are actually quite sloppy and unfinished. Nowhere near the category of Emily Hughes, but not even close to being sufficiently Sashaesque. Yu-Na does, however, land her jumps very lightly and gracefully.

Come to think of it, Mao is much more graceful in terms of positions than Yu-Na is.

Mao has much greater flexibility with her spins, and her spiral is gorgeous. However, her spins don't have the speed of Yu-Na's and her sit and layback positions are worse than the worst of Yu-Na's spiral and layback positions. Neither skater has the same impeccable attention to detail that Sasha had. Not even Caroline does - she's so flexible, but in her spiral she tends to let her leg off to the side to achieve that amplitude.

 

[pista04]

I didnt think a skater could even attend the World Championships at 15 anymore.

Actually they can, but they have to be lucky. They need to be 15 on July 1st the year before the worlds in question. If, lets say, someones birthday is June 29th, with worlds being in March or May, they could very well be 15 on their worlds debut.

 

[Andalusia]

so... you are saying Emily Hughes is more graceful than Yu-na???? I think Yu-na will refine her program as she moves along the season. I noticed she was skating very slooow and tentatively in her LP. And yeah, I agree about Mao, you can definitely tell she had ballet training background and I don't think anybody comes even close to Mao (not Sasha, pleeeez) when it comes to ballerina-like grace. I think Yu-na's grace comes more from her body-type and long arms. Michelle had neither imho. The grace and elegance I'm talking about has little to do with skating positions than the way they carry themselves and move across the ice. It's not something that's acquired by practicing and training but something you are born with.

Reread my post. What I meant was that Yu-Na is not as graceless as Emily in terms of positions, but not as finished as Sasha. And I'm sorry, but your argument got lost on me when you said that Mao has it over Sasha in terms of ballerina-like grace. I'm not a great fan of Sasha, but even I have to admit very few had it over her in that department. Why on earth do you think she has an Olympic silver medal? Due to that huge triple-triple-triple combo she did in the long?

And about Michelle lacking inner grace and elegance - many, many judges obviously didn't think so over the course of a decade, so I think I'll put more stock in their opinions.

 

[slutskayafan21]

Why on earth do you think she has an Olympic silver medal?

1. Since Slutskaya had her worst LP since the 2004 Worlds when she was just coming back from illness.
2. Since Kwan and Asada missed the Olympics altogether.
3. Since there are some who think she was given a gift even at that.

 

[Andalusia]

1. Since Slutskaya had her worst LP since the 2004 Worlds when she was just coming back from illness.
2. Since Kwan and Asada missed the Olympics altogether.
3. Since there are some who think she was given a gift even at that.

Uh huh. And it had nothing to do with her high scores on the non-jump elements in the long?

Sasha fans, care to make a counter-argument? Where's Charlotte (michiruwater) when you need her?

 

[R.D.]

Why on earth do you think she has an Olympic silver medal?

Because in her words (and mine too), it was a gift. She should have been 3rd, but that's the past and I won't rehash it or dwell on it.

 

[bubbleyum]

i read all over the place how yuna's layback is so ugly etc etc, but ppl who say this are only looking at one element of the spin, which is the leg position. now, i agree that the leg position and having a good foot turnout is a very big part of a good layback spin. i don't know why this is so hard to fix but i've seen kwan and a lot of other top skaters do their laybacks like this. i'm thinking maybe yuna is such a big fan of michelle's maybe she thinks this type of layback is good?? i dunno. but anyways, as for the OTHER parts of the spin, i think yuna has a very low, almost flat back, and her spins are all very fast and well centered, and she maintains this speed during any of her other position transitions. so overall she is not an ugly bad spinner! for some reason her foot position is just bad. she is not the best, like naomi nari nam/lucinda rue etc, but she is not terrible.

also,

I also have to say that after watching her LP at CoC, I don't think Yu-Na is a particularly graceful skater. I think she uses her arms the best out of anyone else there is, and I think she possesses musicality, but many of her positions are actually quite sloppy and unfinished. Nowhere near the category of Emily Hughes, but not even close to being sufficiently Sashaesque. Yu-Na does, however, land her jumps very lightly and gracefully.

Come to think of it, Mao is much more graceful in terms of positions than Yu-Na is.

i think i may have to stab my eyes out after reading emily hughes being compared in a better light than yuna. i mean.... emily hughes, ugh.

 

[Wrlmy]

i read all over the place how yuna's layback is so ugly etc etc, but ppl who say this are only looking at one element of the spin, which is the leg position. now, i agree that the leg position and having a good foot turnout is a very big part of a good layback spin. i don't know why this is so hard to fix but i've seen kwan and a lot of other top skaters do their laybacks like this. i'm thinking maybe yuna is such a big fan of michelle's maybe she thinks this type of layback is good?? i dunno. but anyways, as for the OTHER parts of the spin, i think yuna has a very low, almost flat back, and her spins are all very fast and well centered, and she maintains this speed during any of her other position transitions. so overall she is not an ugly bad spinner! for some reason her foot position is just bad. she is not the best, like naomi nari nam/lucinda rue etc, but she is not terrible.

I think the word "ugly" should be banned forever from figure skating vocabulary.

 

[slutskayafan21]

Uh huh. And it had nothing to do with her high scores on the non-jump elements in the long?

Sasha fans, care to make a counter-argument? Where's Charlotte (michiruwater) when you need her?

It had very little to do with that I think. Slutskaya with only 1 of her 2 major mistakes would have beaten her easily for the silver atleast even with an overall insecure, shaky, tenative performance which was her absolute worst in every conceivable way, even aside from the major mistakes. Asada and Kwan were both out of the Olympics as I mentioned, so 2 of the favorites out of the Olympics, which is very rare. Arakawa with no triple-triple attempts, and a major mistake of her own of a doubled triple loop, still beat her by between 8-9 points both in the LP and overall, and outscored Sasha in spins slightly too. Suguri was overall pretty clean, but a bit lackluster in her overall performance and doubled a triple, yet some experts came out after the event and said they would have had her 2nd anyway in the aftermath.

To fall once, have a second almost-fall, and win the silver still, was more a testement to the fact she just got very lucky as I detailed above, then being her so unbelievable attributes that overcame it inspite of it all. It was enough to eke out the silver in one of the worst Olympic womens competitions in history, and it was still controversial to some as there was heavy debate of the 2nd-4th places amongst many in the aftermath. To Sasha's credit she admirably fought back and attacked the program despite the mistakes, unlike Irina who lets hers sag with them.

 

[GoldMedalist]

To fall once, have a second almost-fall, and win the silver still, was more a testement to the fact she just got very lucky as I detailed above, then being her so unbelievable attributes that overcame it inspite of it all.

I would have placed Cohen's efforts in 2006 as 2nd place in 2002, 3rd place in 1998, and 1st place in 1994. Completing 5 Triples and displaying some of the best Spins, Spirals, and Artistry ever is not "getting lucky".

 

[fourclover]

i read all over the place how yuna's layback is so ugly etc etc, but ppl who say this are only looking at one element of the spin, which is the leg position. now, i agree that the leg position and having a good foot turnout is a very big part of a good layback spin. i don't know why this is so hard to fix but i've seen kwan and a lot of other top skaters do their laybacks like this. i'm thinking maybe yuna is such a big fan of michelle's maybe she thinks this type of layback is good?? i dunno. but anyways, as for the OTHER parts of the spin, i think yuna has a very low, almost flat back, and her spins are all very fast and well centered, and she maintains this speed during any of her other position transitions. so overall she is not an ugly bad spinner! for some reason her foot position is just bad. she is not the best, like naomi nari nam/lucinda rue etc, but she is not terrible.

also,



i think i may have to stab my eyes out after reading emily hughes being compared in a better light than yuna. i mean.... emily hughes, ugh.

I agree too. I thought Yu-na's layback spin to the waltz was beautiful; her arms outstretched and flat, parallel to her REALLY low back as she spins, it looks like she's really waltzing to the music. And actually, I don't know/see what's so ugly about her leg position; I think it's in a natural position. It's Dick Button who started it all by pointing that out every time Yu-na skates. He praises Alissa Czisny's splat-infested tumble-skate with ooooohs and ahhhhhhs and when Yu-na skates the highest ever score in World's history, he nitpicks about how ugly her leg positions are.

 

[mizu_iro]

I agree too. I thought Yu-na's layback spin to the waltz was beautiful; her arms outstretched and flat, parallel to her REALLY low back as she spins, it looks like she's really waltzing to the music. And actually, I don't know/see what's so ugly about her leg position; I think it's in a natural position. It's Dick Button who started it all by pointing that out every time Yu-na skates. He praises Alissa Czisny's splat-infested tumble-skate with ooooohs and ahhhhhhs and when Yu-na skates the highest ever score in World's history, he nitpicks about how ugly her leg positions are.

The point is, Yu-Na's layback does not have a classical leg position. She does have a good arch in the back, which has gotten even better this year, but the leg doesn't have a high, turned-out attitude position...and Alissa's layback has one of the best classical positions in skating today. Yu-Na's layback is better than Mao's, but Mao has one of the worst laybacks of any elite skater so that's not saying much.

Out of the SP's, Carolina's is my favorite.

 

[bubbleyum]

The point is, Yu-Na's layback does not have a classical leg position. She does have a good arch in the back, which has gotten even better this year, but the leg doesn't have a high, turned-out attitude position...and Alissa's layback has one of the best classical positions in skating today. Yu-Na's layback is better than Mao's, but Mao has one of the worst laybacks of any elite skater so that's not saying much.

Out of the SP's, Carolina's is my favorite.

kinda strange with all of mao's ballet training.
i guess some coaches just don't care about a good leg turnout and pointed toes? like i think coaches like john nicks must care, cause skaters he coached like sasha and naomi always had nice positions, espcially in their spins and spirals...

 

[Wrlmy]

At this point, it's useless for Yuna to get her leg turned out IMO. Even if she achieves turnout through intensive barre exercises, I doubt her layback will be as good as Caroline's or Alissa's. She's going to either lose speed or lose her back arch. Honestly, I'm one of those not bothered by her layback spin. She does have a good arch, speed, and centering, her bielmann was messy though at CoC. So, if she can't do layback spin like Caroline, she should stick to hers which is totally fine for me. Her layback is better than some turned out laybacks. For example, I would always prefer watching hers over Bebe's.

 

[bekalc]

At this point, it's useless for Yuna to get her leg turned out IMO. Even if she achieves turnout through intensive barre exercises, I doubt her layback will be as good as Caroline's or Alissa's. She's going to either lose speed or lose her back arch. Honestly, I'm one of those not bothered by her layback spin. She does have a good arch, speed, and centering, her bielmann was messy though at CoC. So, if she can't do layback spin like Caroline, she should stick to hers which is totally fine for me. Her layback is better than some turned out laybacks. For example, I would always prefer watching hers over Bebe's.

I agree, when I look at the lay back, I notice the position of the back, head, and arms more so than the leg. Also the speed. Maybe the leg position could be better, but really it's a little part of the spin..

 

[mizu_iro]

At this point, it's useless for Yuna to get her leg turned out IMO. Even if she achieves turnout through intensive barre exercises, I doubt her layback will be as good as Caroline's or Alissa's. She's going to either lose speed or lose her back arch. Honestly, I'm one of those not bothered by her layback spin. She does have a good arch, speed, and centering, her bielmann was messy though at CoC. So, if she can't do layback spin like Caroline, she should stick to hers which is totally fine for me. Her layback is better than some turned out laybacks. For example, I would always prefer watching hers over Bebe's.

Volchkova is another skater who had a good attitude position but not much else in the layback. YuNa sort of reminds me of Lu Chen in that sense - not all of her positions are the most textbook, but she still looks elegant.

One thing I was really impressed with about in YuNa's LP was that it had no I-spins, Y-spins, Biellmanns, donuts, absolutely no remotely contortionist positions in any of the spins. She didn't get high levels on all of them so they may come back, but it was nice to go through a program without having to see any painful-looking moves. Definitely a testament to David Wilson's creativity, and also YuNa's willingness to improve all aspects of her skating - her sit spin is much, much lower and faster this season, something that some other skaters *coughMAOcough* have failed to address.

 

[slutskayafan21]

I would have placed Cohen's efforts in 2006 as 2nd place in 2002, 3rd place in 1998, and 1st place in 1994. Completing 5 Triples and displaying some of the best Spins, Spirals, and Artistry ever is not "getting lucky".

That is where you would have placed her performance, it does not mean it is where she would have finished. Arent you the one who eliminated compulsory figures in handing out your hypothetical gold medals since you thought they were silly. More realistically she would have been 4th in 2002 and 3rd in 1998 with the same performances. The judges would not place Cohen with 2 falls over Kwan with 1, despite how much she has improved since 2002, Kwan is much too highly respected for that scenario and Kwan was only 3rd in 2002. I agree on 3rd in 1998. 1992 she would have been 3rd behind Kristi and Midori as well. 1994 is the only recent year she might have done better then 3rd.

The fact is she was very lucky to win silver with that performance just like I said. Irina had her worst free skate in almost 2 years and still would have easily bumped her to 3rd without 1 of her 2 major mistakes. Asada and Kwan were out of the Olympics, either with high potential to have beaten Cohen, especialy with 2 major mistakes like she had. Arakawa with a very good but underwhelming performance beat her by over 8 points, basically by 2 falls. Her silver was debated and controversial to some even as it was, it was a hot topic the day after the event ended. All in all that would come to getting quite lucky. End of story.

Also she really only completed 4 triples. 1 triple she stood up was badly two footed and received some -2 in GOE, and it was in a sequence which under COP is reduced value anyway so she really only did the equivalent of 4 triples, not 5.