Lambiel robbed of new PB by technical specialist!

[Mathman]

Hi, EvanLysacekfan. The reason I used the term "dodged a bulet" is this. In any sporting event we want the contest to be decided by the athletes on the field of play. It's a downer when instead, victory or defeat is decided by a referee's decision.

Like, if a team throws the winning touchdown on the last play of the game -- but no! it's called back by a holding penalty on the other side of the field. That bites.

If the World championship is decided by a controversial decision by the technical specialist, rather than by what the athletes actually put out there on the ice, then the fans leave the arena talking about how stupid the judging system is instead of in a glow about the wonderful skating that they just saw.

MM

 

[antmanb]

OK Mathman. Now for a homework assignment. I am totally wracking my brain trying to remember where I read this. Or maybe I just dreamed it. I could swear I read somewhere that the skaters are able to see their protocols (on a monitor??) immediately following their skates. I thought there was a process whereby the skater could privately (I assume through their coach or whatever) question a call, and get an answer. Not that I've ever heard of a call being changed, and not that I've ever believed that every call is 100% accurate - in FS or in Football. But your post made me curious to dig deeper into this.....myth?? dream?? Whatever it is.

DG

I don't know if the skaters can see it on a monitor but the commentators get screens with all the detail on it. I would doubt the ISu would allow a skater to challenge anything they've expressly said that coaches (and i'm thinking it said skaters too) would not be allowed to complain in real time and change the result, only officials can do that in real time.

Ant

 

[Doggygirl]

I don't know if the skaters can see it on a monitor but the commentators get screens with all the detail on it. I would doubt the ISu would allow a skater to challenge anything they've expressly said that coaches (and i'm thinking it said skaters too) would not be allowed to complain in real time and change the result, only officials can do that in real time.

Ant

If the commentors can see it, then I am sure the actual skaters can. Now my question is.... what's the process for a skater (and team) who think their L3 FW was L4, or their 2A was a 3A, etc.? I'm asking about what the process "IS" - not what it "should be." (which I have stong opinions about too!)

DG

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I was in Calgary in the first row but on the other side of the rink from the controversial 3A. It looked very good to me and everybody around me. Days later a very credible source told me that the technical controller said, "We had to downgrade it." Why, I don't know, but was it underrotated....what? I would love to see the slow-mo of the landing. I kow that Stephane was upset and so was Peter Grutter, his coach. I don't know if the Swiss Federation will protest, but Grutter expressed his unhappiness directly to the technical controller.

For Lambiel and Grutter it is not an issue of Stephane "being robbed" it is an issue of CONSISTENCY AND ACCURACY in the new scoring system. How can a skater do exactly the same spin in a qualifying round and a free program and end up having the free program spin downgraded in level? Something is very wrong here and the technical controllers and specialists need to be challenged on it.

I was on the side of the jump itself and it was clean! but a Tech Asst can not go back on his word. Maybe it will be discussed. It should be on general principles.

The spin in the Quali, perhaps was more centered. I don't remember him travelling his spins (he did on one or two spins in the Olys). again, that should also be discussed. Downgrading is a heavy penalty but a flutz is slap on the wrist.

It's not just Lambiel, it is the whole concept of this one particular official who has such power in the results of a competition.

Joe

 

[antmanb]

If the commentors can see it, then I am sure the actual skaters can. Now my question is.... what's the process for a skater (and team) who think their L3 FW was L4, or their 2A was a 3A, etc.? I'm asking about what the process "IS" - not what it "should be." (which I have stong opinions about too!)

DG

Sorry i wasn't clear in my post i wrote "real time" but actually i think i should have written "at all". No skater or coach can object to the scores (levels, calls etc) at all only one of the officials can raise it as an issue. Other than that, what has the process ever been for a skater to raise an objection? A sports tribunal?? Legal action? I doubt that outside of the Olympics, the outside world and media wouldn't care enough to kick up a stink to force the changing of the result. To us its important but the rest of the world really doesn't care that much about figure skating.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

I was on the side of the jump itself and it was clean! but a Tech Asst can not go back on his word. Maybe it will be discussed. It should be on general principles.

Someone who is more knowledgeable about the ins and outs of CoP said to me, when i complained about the fate of a skater lying in the hands of one person, that actually you have the tech specialist, his assistant and someone else who all watch the program and call the elements in real time, if any one of them calls it differently then its flagged and they have to go back to it. In theory also i thin all of the judges have a button they can press to question the call as well. What i find difficult to believe is that of three people calling and all of the judges not one of them questioned the call of 2A. (I've still not watched it so i don't have an opinion on it) But if to most people it looked clean then surely at least one of the the officials must have said hang on that was a triple and a debate must have been had. It all smells far too fishy to me, but for it to have ended up as a double sounds like a hell of a lot of people colluding to me and that in itself warrants an investigation. But who would call for one? Neither Lambiel nor his coach are going to do anything to annoy the ISU (like question the judging) since he won anyway, he's got nothing to gain and everything to lose by p*****g off the ISU and suffering more "downgrades" etc in the future.

The spin in the Quali, perhaps was more centered. I don't remember him travelling his spins (he did on one or two spins in the Olys). again, that should also be discussed. Downgrading is a heavy penalty but a flutz is slap on the wrist.

It's not just Lambiel, it is the whole concept of this one particular official who has such power in the results of a competition.

Joe

But centering a spin doesn't affect the level assigned it affects the GOE. So long as he did all of the same level enhancers in the spin in the LP as he did in the QR then he can travel to one end of the rink and back and still get the same level assigned....this whole thing sounds very fishy to me.

Ant

 

[Mathman]

It all smells far too fishy to me, but for it to have ended up as a double sounds like a hell of a lot of people colluding to me and that in itself warrants an investigation.

Qui bono? What would be the goal behind this collusion? To hold Lambiel's win to only three points instead of 7? To repay Didier Gaihaguet for Salt Lake City by letting the French skater come close? To embarrass Speedy by creating a needless controversy?

In every sport there are referees, umpires and the like who have to make the call on the field. Sometimes the call is in doubt because the referee did not have a good angle to view the action (as I understand it, this is why skaters always do their triple Lutz in the "Lutz corner" as far away from the judges as possible, hoping they won't be able to see the take-off edge, LOL.)

Sometimes these calls are reversed after consultation among several officials. Sometimes they are reviewed by instant replay. Sometimes half of the audience goes home chanting we wuz robbed and the other half goes home cheering the home team.

Every sport works hard to minimize controversy involving the officiating. Judged sports have a particularly tough row to hoe in this regard. My biggest complaint is that the whole judging process is shrouded in secrecy to the point that we have no way of distinguishing between a blown call and an unsavory conspiracy.

MM

 

[antmanb]

Qui bono? What would be the goal behind this collusion? To hold Lambiel's win to only three points instead of 7? To repay Didier Gaihaguet for Salt Lake City by letting the French skater come close? To embarrass Speedy by creating a needless controversy?

MM

That's why i say its fishy - because i can't see particular motive. Also remember that the Axel was one of the first elements so the result of the action of downgrading that jump would not have been known at the time...they didn't know he'd skate the rest of the program clean so they weren't thinking "this will lessen the margin by which he wins" the oinly motivation can be to give someone else the win...the french have a history of making deals...the Men's event was their best (only?) chance of gold...the caler was American, the Americans had a real chance at Gold in the ladies....i'm wildly speculating for a laugh but conspiracy theories are easy to come up with!!!

The difficulty i have is that in theory the rules say that if one of the 15 officials watching the element questions it, then everyone has to go back and look at the replay and determine if it was called right. My question (which because of the secrecy will never be answered) is: did not one of those 15 people say it was a triple axel not a double? Have the judges just stopped counting rotations now because its in the callers hands? Did not a single judge hit their "question the call" button. Did the 3 people on the tech panel all whisper double axel into their head sets??? Or did one of the judges press the button, or one of the tech panel call a triple axel? Did they then have a dialogue and watch the replay and all decide, actually there was more than a quarter turn cheat....in which case none of the 9 judges that counted thought it was underrotated because not one of them gave it a -GOE...to me the judges saw the triple and marked it, but probably didn't even look at the screeen to see it had been called a double....who were the technical panel? Scott Davis was the caller, who was his assistant and who was the third person? And are they friends with any french officials/judges enemies with any swiss officials/judges?!?!?!?!

Ant <who thinks we should make up a skating Cludo that has event fixes instead of murders and famous skating arenas instead of rooms! >

 

[Mathman]

The Assistant Tech Specialist was Finnish and the Tech Controller was Canadian.

 

[harmonie]

Hi, EvanLysacekfan. The reason I used the term "dodged a bulet" is this. In any sporting event we want the contest to be decided by the athletes on the field of play. It's a downer when instead, victory or defeat is decided by a referee's decision.

I agree, but the problem is that the contest sadly IS still NOT decided by the athletes on the field of play, and Plushenko at the Olympics (performance: 8.39, choreography: 8.18, interpretation: 8.43 - not to mention the 11.15 points of GOE ) is the best example.

 

[antmanb]

The Assistant Tech Specialist was Finnish and the Tech Controller was Canadian.

Hmmmm - the Western Axis of Figure Skating Eviiiiiiiil!!!!!

Who knows...i'm curious as to what happened and with all the secrecy and so much of the oringinal task of judging pulled from the judges and given to The One (or Three in this case!) who knows what happend, but like the Silver Medal in Torino only really affecting the Chinese pairs medals wise, no-one will complain and nothing will ever be found out...but Scott Davis we're keeping our eyes on you and your questionable calling...!!!

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

How can one be sure that the Asst Tech Specialist and the Tech Controller give a hoot whether the Tech Asst is correct in his calls. They have a perfect view of the ice and are probably enjoying the 'show' and thinking about that international party after the competition.

We don't know these guys personally.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

According to the printout I got:

QR - Lambiel 1 Joubert 3 Lysacek 2 Oda 1 Sandhu 6

SP - Lambiel 4 Joubert 1 Lysacek 8 Oda 3 Sandhu 2

LP - Lambiel 1 Joubert 2 Lysacek 3 Oda 5 Sandhu 4

Buttle and Weir did better in the QR

Preaubert over Chengiang Li although both had one each very bad score.

Sorry to go back to this post two pages ago, but I did want to make a comment and I didn't get around to it in a timely way.

Anyway...

This is just what we figure skating fans have to get used to under the New Judging System. Lists like this (ordinals) are completely meaningless now. It just doesn't matter any more who is leading after the short program, how many places back someone else is, and all that stuff that seemed so important under the 6.0 system.

In the new judging system, a skater could easily get, say, 2nd in the short and 5th in the long, and still win over a skaker that got 3rd in the short and 1st in the long.

Example

Short Program

Skater A --- 61 points
Michelle -- 60
Irina -------- 50
Skater D --- 49
Skater E --- 48
Sakter F --- 47

Long Program:

Irina ------ 100
D ----------- 99
E ----------- 98
F ----------- 97
Michelle - 96
A ----------- 94

In the old judging system, Irina ("in control of her own destiny after the SP," as we used to say), wins.

In the New Judging System, the podium is

Michelle, gold
Skater A, silver
Irina, bronze

Takes some getting used to, both for us and for the skaters, it seems to me.

Mathman

 

[EvanLysacekFan]

The new system is more fair. Now we need the judging to be.

 

[Mathman]

When the New Judging System first came out, the criticism was that under the CoP it was just as easy for judges to cheat as it was before, but harder to catch them at it.

After a couple of years of seeing the new system in action, I have to take my hat off to Speedy. The main thing that the NJS does is to transfer power from the panel of judges to the the tech specialist and his team.

The reason this is a brilliant move on Cinquanta's part is that the judges are under the control of the national federations severally, but the tech specialists are certified, selected and overseen by the ISU hierarchy directly.

Most of the tech specialists are former championship level skaters themselves. In theory, they have less interest in forming a bloc with Liechtentein and Moldavia to advance the fortunes of the skater from Myanmar, than in giving the athletes a fair shake. (In practice, who knows?)

MM

 

[Alsace]

Most of the tech specialists are former championship level skaters themselves. In theory, they have less interest in forming a bloc with Liechtentein and Moldavia to advance the fortunes of the skater from Myanmar, than in giving the athletes a fair shake. (In practice, who knows?)

In practice is the question indeed! Suppose, in the international world of coaching, two or three on the panel and a competitor were all students of the same world-class coach, who may be retiring or whatnot. There may not be a lot to stop the panel from helping the competitor for the coach's sake.

 

[Mathman]

Hmmmm - the Western Axis of Figure Skating Eviiiiiiiil!!!!!

... but like the Silver Medal in Torino only really affecting the Chinese pairs medals wise, no-one will complain and nothing will ever be found out...but Scott Davis we're keeping our eyes on you and your questionable calling...!!!

Good heavens, Ant, I think you're on to something! For the pairs event at Torino, the referee was...Hely Abbodati from Finland. The technical specialist was David Kirby for the United States. And the Technical Assistant was David Moellenkamp of Canada.

 

[Mathman]

In practice is the question indeed! Suppose, in the international world of coaching, two or three on the panel and a competitor were all students of the same world-class coach, who may be retiring or whatnot. There may not be a lot to stop the panel from helping the competitor for the coach's sake.

I wonder how other sports address this issue. I can't see anything that would prevent the Detroit Pistons basketball team from bribing the officials, or from getting palsy-walsy with them beause of past associations and mutual friends.

Yet in most sports, when there is a controversial call, while the fans might question the competency of the officials, there are rarely charges of bias and never of crookedness.

There just seems to be a culture in figure skating where everyone expects that everyone else is cheating, so you better cheat too or you'll get left behind.

Is the New Judging System, with it's techical specialist team, a step ithe right direction, or is it same-old, same-old?

MM

 

[hockeyfan228]

So long as he did all of the same level enhancers in the spin in the LP as he did in the QR then he can travel to one end of the rink and back and still get the same level assigned....this whole thing sounds very fishy to me

The question is whether he did all of the same level enhancers in the spin. Not just the positions and/or the edge changes, but holding them the required amount of time to count. Many positions in spins and spirals have not counted because they haven't been held long enough in a given competition.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

This is just what we figure skating fans have to get used to under the New Judging System. Lists like this (ordinals) are completely meaningless now. It just doesn't matter any more who is leading after the short program, how many places back someone else is, and all that stuff that seemed so important under the 6.0 system.

Mathman, I think we are used to the new system. That List was a list of results for each segment of the competition. It would not even satisfy the 6.0 system.

Of course, points are what the final result are all about and Lambiel got the most points. Over and out.

Joe