Let the V&M, B&A and D&S (squared) comparisons begin!

[RDiva]

I said they wouldn't get the gold medal till worlds 2010, not that they wouldn't get a silver/bronze .
Don't forget history books say OG always goes to Russia/France.:yes:
So either Domnina/Shabalin Kokhlova/Novitski or Delobel/Shoenfelder will win .:yes: We'll see

Yes, but the OG will be in Canada-which is very important...however i prefer Del/S as OGM then V/M

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Yeah, it sounds more like some of the conspiracy theory obessed people around here will never be satisfied. Still living in Cold War where former Soviet Union countries and some Eastern European countries are considered same. People get over it, Russia has more strained relationship with its former republics than it does with Canada or USA. Those days are gone and the fact that a certain judge from Uzbekistan has Russian surname does not indicate that he/she will vote for Russian skater, in fact she might very well do just the opposite. Fresh example?? Having the so-called Russian-Israeli block at CoC did not seem to help D/S.

I am sure that judges will always be inclined to vote for someone their have strategic interest voting for, BUT which federation is clean of backdoor dealing?
If anyone has any idea about how the deal is made, one should know that it is always a placement trading. Meaning that if there is a fix, there are two parties involved not just one side imposing the decision.

My feelings about this has nothing to do with the Cold War. It has everything to do with the spread of ethinic Russians in different parts of the world. They remain true to Mother Russia whatever nationality they have taken on.

American judges come from one country. English judges come from one country. French judges come from one country and so on in Western Europe, and there are no ties between them.
.
As an example: An Uzbekistan judge is ethnically Russian, and he will favor a competitor from Uzbekistan, but if there is no Uzbekistani in the competition, he will draw from his ethnic past.

There was a motion to select judges on a regional basis rather than on a national basis, but the Russian Federation objected to it.

There is no great problem here and with the CoP changing judges around here and there, the situation has improved, but it is difficult to ignore when several Russian ethnics are judging in the same competition.

Joe

 

[all that]

American judges come from one country. English judges come from one country. French judges come from one country and so on in Western Europe, and there are no ties between them.
.
As an example: An Uzbekistan judge is ethnically Russian, and he will favor a competitor from Uzbekistan, but if there is no Uzbekistani in the competition, he will draw from his ethnic past.

???? America is a land of immigrants -- more so than any other country in the world. Interesting how you assume, say, an Italian-American judge will not "draw from his ethnic past" and vote for an Italian when no American is present, but that an Uzbekistan judge will.

Additonally, not every Uzbek has a Russian ethnic heritage. And I'd think someone who didn't would be extremely insulted by your assumption.

 

[chuckm]

Yeah, it sounds more like some of the conspiracy theory obessed people around here will never be satisfied. Still living in Cold War where former Soviet Union countries and some Eastern European countries are considered same. People get over it, Russia has more strained relationship with its former republics than it does with Canada or USA. Those days are gone and the fact that a certain judge from Uzbekistan has Russian surname does not indicate that he/she will vote for Russian skater, in fact she might very well do just the opposite.

Sorry, but the judges for many of the former SSRs are Russian, and they were "loaned" to the former SSRs (Armenia, Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, Georgia) because those countries don't have any judge training system of their own. Irina Absaliamova used to judge for Belarus, but now she has been loaned to Armenia.

Fresh example?? Having the so-called Russian-Israeli block at CoC did not seem to help D/S.

Did you see DomShabs' PCS scores? Their FD was the sloppiest of the top 3 FDs, yet they got the highest PCS scores. That was an obvious attempt by the judges to help them overcome the very low TES scores that they got because the technical team gigged them so heavily for their mistakes.

I am sure that judges will always be inclined to vote for someone their have strategic interest voting for, BUT which federation is clean of backdoor dealing?
If anyone has any idea about how the deal is made, one should know that it is always a placement trading. Meaning that if there is a fix, there are two parties involved not just one side imposing the decision.

And what strategic alliances do YOU see among judges? Certainly the Canadian judge is going to support Dubreuil/Lauzon and Virtue/Moir, not Belbin/Agosto and Davis/White, or Delobel/Schoenfelder or Pechalat/Bourzat. The French and American judges tend to support their own teams. Where medals are concerned, these judges are not going to be inclined to make deals, and there is only one judge per country.

However, AZE, UZB, GEO, BLR and ARM do not have any medal contenders. And as the "loaned" judges representing these former SSRs are actually Russian, they certainly are not going to favor the US, Canadian or French teams. It is quite possible that several of these "loaned" judges will wind up on a panel (it is a common occurrence in GP and JGP events) And how is it that panels are set up? It's done by the ISU technical committee---the head of which happens to be Russian.

The last big judging scandal involved the French and Russian federations, and the scandals before that were almost entirely involving Russian and Ukrainian judges who were censured and suspended but are STILL judging nonetheless(Danilova and Balkov, to name two). In the past, cheating judges did their dirty deeds and it was plain what scores they had given and who they had supported. Now that their identities and scores are concealed from view, why would anyone assume that these cheaters who are still judging are going to behave any differently?

It's no wonder people are suspicious. And when people see multiple Russian judges on a panel, there IS cause for skepticism about the results.

If the Russian dance teams are really so much better than all the others, then why is it necessary to stack the judging panels?

 

[oxade21]

Sorry, but the judges for many of the former SSRs are Russian, and they are "loaned" to the former SSRs (Armenia, Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, Georgia)because those countries don't have any judge training system of their own.

There is no such thing as "loaned", every judge has to be approved by countrie's federation, and I doubt that Georgia's federation will be easy ally considering what's happening right now between these two countries.
Moreover if you really concerned that Russia "loans" judges, WHY Canada and USA helps out those poor countires and "loans" their own? I am sure nobody prohibits that.

Did you see DomShabs' PCS scores? Their FD was the sloppiest of the top 3 FDs, yet they got the highest PCS scores. That was an obvious attempt by the judges to help them overcome the very low TES scores that they got because the technical team gigged them so heavily for their mistakes.

Well, the technical caller that UNDESERVEDLY overpunished D/S (and I stand by that as having both downgrading and GOE on one element is WAY TOO HARSH) was ethnic Russian. Besides, look at the protocols and tell me which PCS score was undeserved by D/S. It is not like the score was WAY TOO HIGH, it was very close to B/A and I believe in every of those categories D/S are far superior team over B/A even with sloppy skating. And I warn you I am not even a fan of D/S.

And what strategic alliances do YOU see among judges? Certainly the Canadian judge is going to support Dubreuil/Lauzon and Virtue/Moir, not Belbin/Agosto and Davis/White, or Delobel/Schoenfelder or Pechalat/Bourzat. The French and American judges tend to support their own teams. Where medals are concerned, these judges are not going to be inclined to make deals, and there is only one judge per country.

This tells me that you have no idea what you are talking about and have no clue how the backdoor deals are made in figure skating.

However, AZE, UZB, GEO, BLR and ARM do not have any medal contenders. And being Russian, they certainly are not going to favor the US, Canadian or French teams. It is quite possible that several of these "loaned" judges will wind up on a panel (it is a common occurrence in GP and JGP events) And how is it that panels are set up? It's done by the ISU technical committee---the head of which happens to be Russian.

So technical specialist happen to be Russian and all hell broke lose right? Now according to you being Russian automatically mean there is cheating? Why don't we prohibit Russian Federtion from ISU all together? I am sure the competitions will be much peaceful and interesting for North American viewers. In fact why do we even need Worlds? Let's just have US and Candian Nationals as those the only competitions that really matter. Just invite foreigners as guests. Do you even listen to yourself? I am sorry but you sound like paranoidal patient.

The last big judging scandal involved the French and Russian federations, and the scandals before that were almost entirely involving Russian and Ukrainian judges who were censured and suspended but are STILL judging nonetheless(Danilova and Balkov, to name two). It's no wonder people are suspicious. And when people see multiple Russian judges on a panel, there IS cause for skepticism.

Well, last time I heard there was NO Russian Federation involvment in SLC scandal, apparently it was French and Canadian Federations. There were three teams invloved S/P and B/S in pairs and A/P in Dance. I never heard any Russian Federation involvement in any of this.

Finally, just get a life, this is silly.

 

[Tonichelle]

well B/S were the russian pair... and it was said that Russia would get France's vote in pairs if France got Russia's vote in dance... so basically Russia "sacrificed" their ice dance gold for their pairs gold (that's my very easified version)

let's play nice... telling someone to get a life over an argument solves nothing.

???? America is a land of immigrants -- more so than any other country in the world. Interesting how you assume, say, an Italian-American judge will not "draw from his ethnic past" and vote for an Italian when no American is present, but that an Uzbekistan judge will.

I'm Irish/German born and raised in Alaska (ie I'm American) but I don't see myself liking more skaters from my ethnic past than my humble present... I'm American I don't feel tied to the Mother Country, and my family is relatively newer to the US than some others... my mother's side moved here in about 1902, and my dad's side was after the civil war as far as we've been able to uncover... why I felt the need to share all that I don't know, my point is I don't think all judges vote by an ethnic past bias so much as a present country bias... or even just continent biases lol normally the 4 continents eligible countries vote along certain lines while the Europeans eligible countries vote sometimes the opposite way...

whatever floats your boat (or in skating cases sinks the ship lol)

 

[oxade21]

well B/S were the russian pair... and it was said that Russia would get France's vote in pairs if France got Russia's vote in dance... so basically Russia "sacrificed" their ice dance gold for their pairs gold (that's my very easified version)

let's play nice... telling someone to get a life over an argument solves nothing.

Well, the version I heard was that A/P gets first palce if S/P gets the first place. That's my easified version. Shall we start this debate over and over again.

 

[Tonichelle]

that'd be news to me, but media spin went different directions on different sides of the line... so it wouldn't surprise me...

I wasn't debating anything... I was merely backing up what someone else had suggested so that they wouldn't have to go about getting a life

 

[gkelly]

Don't forget history books say OG always goes to Russia/France.:yes:

Well, there are only 30 years of Olympic ice dance history to look at. It so happens that of those 9 gold medals, 7 went to Soviet or Russian teams, 1 to a French team, and 1 to a British team.

I don't think you can draw any conclusions about the future based on that history.

 

[chuckm]

There is no such thing as "loaned", every judge has to be approved by countrie's federation, and I doubt that Georgia's federation will be easy ally considering what's happening right now between these two countries.

If you took the trouble to read all the ISU rules, you would find out that the rules allow "loaning".

Many of the "loaned" judges and several of the BLR and UKR judges were former Soviet judges, and they continue to judge with biased eyes. As for the Georgian judge, I have been studying the protocols for the JGP events, where the judges and their scores are identified and you can see their preferences. The Georgian and Russian judges vote almost in lockstep. They give high PCS scores and GOEs to the Russian and Georgian teams, and lower PCS scores and GOEs to the close competitors of their teams. Political differences apparently do not influence ice dance judging.

Moreover if you really concerned that Russia "loans" judges, WHY Canada and USA helps out those poor countires and "loans" their own? I am sure nobody prohibits that.

The US theoretically could "loan" a judge to Puerto Rico, but the ISU refuses to give PR membership, since PR doesn't have a year-round ice rink. Of course AZE, UZB, and IND don't have year-round ice rinks either, but that doesn't seem to matter. Other than that, there are no such possibilities. The fact is that US and Canada aren't former massive geographic empires that were broken up into smaller states that they can easily influence, as the Soviet Union was, and where Russia still yields hegemony.

Well, the technical caller that UNDESERVEDLY overpunished D/S (and I stand by that as having both downgrading and GOE on one element is WAY TOO HARSH) was ethnic Russian.
....So technical specialist happen to be Russian and all hell broke lose right?

What are you smoking? The Technical Controller, Katalin Alpern, represents Israel, but she is ethnically Hungarian. And the Technical Controller does not do the calling, but is there only to resolve disputes between the Technical Specialist (the main caller) and the Assistant Technical Specialist based on the rulebook.

For Cup of China, the Technical Specialist was AUSTRALIAN, and the Assistant Technical Specialist was GERMAN.

Besides, look at the protocols and tell me which PCS score was undeserved by D/S. It is not like the score was WAY TOO HIGH, it was very close to B/A and I believe in every of those categories D/S are far superior team over B/A even with sloppy skating. And I warn you I am not even a fan of D/S.

Teams that have made multiple mistakes and skated as sloppily as DomShabs did do NOT deserve 8s in the PCS scores.

This tells me that you have no idea what you are talking about and have no clue how the backdoor deals are made in figure skating.

Oh, and you do? Tell me, how are backdoor deals made, and how do you know that?

Now according to you being Russian automatically mean there is cheating? Why don't we prohibit Russian Federtion from ISU all together? I am sure the competitions will be much peaceful and interesting for North American viewers. In fact why do we even need Worlds? Let's just have US and Candian Nationals as those the only competitions that really matter. Just invite foreigners as guests. Do you even listen to yourself? I am sorry but you sound like paranoidal patient.

I was not saying that all Russian judges cheat. I just pointed out that there are judges still judging that have been suspended in the past for cheating, and they happen to be from Russia and/or former SSRs. If they cheated openly when they could be caught, why would you think that those individuals wouldn't do the same thing now that they are shielded from scrutiny?

My main concern is the packing of judging panels with Russian judges. That does not seem fair or equitable in any way, shape or form. There should be a rule that prevents this from happening, but that will never happen as long as the Russian federation retains control of the ISU technical committee.

Well, last time I heard there was NO Russian Federation involvment in SLC scandal, apparently it was French and Canadian Federations. There were three teams invloved S/P and B/S in pairs and A/P in Dance. I never heard any Russian Federation involvement in any of this.

The deal was obviously between France and Russia: Russia gets the gold medal in Pairs, and France gets gold in Ice Dance. In actuality, Russia (probably steamed at the French judge for blabbing) almost won the Ice Dance gold, too, probably in revenge. The French judge and the head of the French federation were suspended, but the ISU never investigated further.

Finally, just get a life, this is silly.

No, it is not "silly". Skaters devote their lives to training and competing, and it is unfair and unreasonable for them to have their efforts judged by a panel that is pre-engineered to favor teams from one particular federation.

It isn't silly to expect judging to be fair.

 

[oxade21]

If you took the trouble to read all the ISU rules, you would find out that the rules allow "loaning".

Many of the "loaned" judges and several of the BLR and UKR judges were former Soviet judges, and they continue to judge with biased eyes. As for the Georgian judge, I have been studying the protocols for the JGP events, where the judges and their scores are identified and you can see their preferences. The Georgian and Russian judges vote almost in lockstep. They give high PCS scores and GOEs to the Russian and Georgian teams, and lower PCS scores and GOEs to the close competitors of their teams. Political differences apparently do not influence ice dance judging.



The US theoretically could "loan" a judge to Puerto Rico, but the ISU refuses to give PR membership, since PR doesn't have a year-round ice rink. Of course AZE, UZB, and IND don't have year-round ice rinks either, but that doesn't seem to matter. Other than that, there are no such possibilities. The fact is that US and Canada aren't former massive geographic empires that were broken up into smaller states that they can easily influence, as the Soviet Union was, and where Russia still yields hegemony.



What are you smoking? The Technical Controller, Katalin Alpern, represents Israel, but she is ethnically Hungarian. And the Technical Controller does not do the calling, but is there only to resolve disputes between the Technical Specialist (the main caller) and the Assistant Technical Specialist based on the rulebook.

For Cup of China, the Technical Specialist was AUSTRALIAN, and the Assistant Technical Specialist was GERMAN.



Teams that have made multiple mistakes and skated as sloppily as DomShabs did do NOT deserve 8s in the PCS scores.



Oh, and you do? Tell me, how are backdoor deals made, and how do you know that?




I was not saying that all Russian judges cheat. I just pointed out that there are judges still judging that have been suspended in the past for cheating, and they happen to be from Russia and/or former SSRs. If they cheated openly when they could be caught, why would you think that those individuals wouldn't do the same thing now that they are shielded from scrutiny?

My main concern is the packing of judging panels with Russian judges. That does not seem fair or equitable in any way, shape or form. There should be a rule that prevents this from happening, but that will never happen as long as the Russian federation retains control of the ISU technical committee.



The deal was obviously between France and Russia: Russia gets the gold medal in Pairs, and France gets gold in Ice Dance. In actuality, Russia (probably steamed at the French judge for blabbing) almost won the Ice Dance gold, too, probably in revenge. The French judge and the head of the French federation were suspended, but the ISU never investigated further.




No, it is not "silly". Skaters devote their lives to training and competing, and it is unfair and unreasonable for them to have their efforts judged by a panel that is pre-engineered to favor teams from one particular federation.

It isn't silly to expect judging to be fair.

Well, I rest my case, I don't have time for this crazyness and stupid conspiracy theories that have nothing to do with the reality but everything you are saying is just your personal suspicion and beliefs with added adjectives such as "obvious". Whatever makes you happy and entertained, dude. Enjoy.

 

[chuckm]

It isn't suspicion and belief where the "loaned" judges are concerned. That is a fact.

And you were dead wrong when you said the caller at CoC was Russian. Look at the ISU results page for Cup of China, and then look up the judges' and callers' federations on the ISU Communication.

The panel:
http://www.isufs.org/results/gpchn07/SEG009OF.HTM

The judges and callers [ISU Communication #1467]:
http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=662

 

[slutskayafan21]

Lets calm down a bit on Domnina/Shabalin for now. Remember:

1)Many of us all felt things were being set up in their favor prior to Worlds last year and they only came 5th.

2)The judges still did mark them down bigtime on the TES for their sloppy Cup of China performance even without a major/fall stumble. Yes their PCS were questionable, but they still did not win the gold medal and were marked down for the technical deficiencies of that particular performance anyway.

 

[Tonichelle]

Lets calm down a bit on Domnina/Shabalin for now.

we've pretty much forgotten them and gone on to judges in general

figure skating internet fandom is not for the faint of heart (or those who can't take a constant migrane)

 

[chuckm]

ISU Communication # 1475 is out, announcing the draw for judges for the 2008 ISU Championships.

http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=712

As I had surmised, this time there is no doubt that Russia will be well represented in the Worlds Ice Dance judging panel.

The judges for the FD:
ARM
BUL
EST
RUS

plus eight judges chosen at random from these federations
AUT
AZE
CAN
CHN
FRA
GER
GBR
ISR
JPN
LTU
USA
UZB

The 12 federations listed above are the judges for the CD and OD.

So there will be two Russian judges on the CD and OD panels (AZE and UZB), and at least two on the FD panel (ARM and RUS). But it could also be possible for there to be as many as FOUR Russian judges on the FD panel, if AZE and UZB are drawn for the FD. And there is an outside chance that SIX former SSRs will sit on the FD panel: ARM, EST, RUS, AZE, UZB, LTU.

Meanwhile, there is no guarantee that a USA, CAN or FRA judge will be on the FD panel---and all could be out.

The only encouraging thing is that Yuri Balkov (UKR) won't be judging.

 

[gkelly]

The US theoretically could "loan" a judge to Puerto Rico, but the ISU refuses to give PR membership, since PR doesn't have a year-round ice rink.

Puerto Rico is now a member of the ISU:
http://www.isu.org/vsite/vcontent/p...161375-178590-19296-68634-custom-item,00.html


I don't know how many judges they have yet; I would guess there are no dance judges.

 

[oxade21]

ISU Communication # 1475 is out, announcing the draw for judges for the 2008 ISU Championships.

http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=712

As I had surmised, this time there is no doubt that Russia will be well represented in the Worlds Ice Dance judging panel.

The judges for the FD:
ARM
BUL
EST
RUS

plus eight judges chosen at random from these federations
AUT
AZE
CAN
CHN
FRA
GER
GBR
ISR
JPN
LTU
USA
UZB

The 12 federations listed above are the judges for the CD and OD.

So there will be two Russian judges on the CD and OD panels (AZE and UZB), and at least two on the FD panel (ARM and RUS). But it could also be possible for there to be as many as FOUR Russian judges on the FD panel, if AZE and UZB are drawn for the FD.

Meanwhile, there is no guarantee that a USA, CAN or FRA judge will be on the FD panel.

Well, gotta love the conspiracy theoristsLOL
I can just replace the Federation names and make exact the opposite case. Don't you see the flaw in your logic?
Besides, do u even know who exactly is judging for AZE or ARM? Are you sure it is "loaned" judge, I know several Armenian and Azeri judges who are not Russian, just like sometime Israel uses Hungarian sometime Russians to represent themselves. And why are EST and BUL on your pro-Russian judges list?? What if Den/Sta come back? will that change anything? Ig you put Bulgray, you can assume the same for Hungary, Poland, Chech, basically, any judge from Eastern Europe.

You really are obessed, aren't you!

 

[chuckm]

Besides, do u even know who exactly is judging for AZE or ARM? Are you sure it is "loaned" judge, I know several Armenian and Azeri judges who are not Russian!

You could not know several Armenian and Azeri judges because there are very few!

And we DO know which ARM, AZE and UZB judges will be on the Ice Dance panel at Worlds, because for ISU Championships, only ISU judges are qualified. International judges are not.

ARM. Irina Absaliamova (who used to judge for BLR) is the only ISU judge for ARM, and she is qualified to judge both Singles/Pairs and Ice Dancing. Igor Zavozin (who is also Russian---he's Max Zavozin's father) is an ice dancing judge, but only "International". Marina Barseghyan may be Armenian, but she is an International judge for Singles/Pairs only.

So we know Absaliamova (ARM) will be on the FD panel.

AZE. Azerbaijan has just two judges: Irina Kireeva and Irina Nechkina, both Russian. But only Kireeva is an ISU judge qualified for Singles/Pairs and Ice Dancing. Irina Nechkina is an International judge qualified for Ice Dance only.

So we know Irina Kireeva (AZE) will be on the CD and OD panels, and possibly the FD panel.

UZB. Uzbekistan has just two judges: Evgeni Rokhin and Raisa Gagarina, both Russian. Both are qualified to judge Pairs/Singles and Ice Dance, but only Rokhin is an ISU judge. Gagarina is an International judge in all disciplines.

So we know Rokhin (UZB) will be on the CD and OD panels, and possibly on the FD panel.

And YOU would have known all that too, if you had bothered to look it up in Communication #1467, to which I provided a link in a previous post.

 

[oxade21]

You could not know several Armenian and Azeri judges because there are very few!

And we DO know which ARM, AZE and UZB judges will be on the Ice Dance panel at Worlds, because for ISU Championships, only ISU judges are qualified. International judges are not.

ARM. Irina Absaliamova (who used to judge for BLR) is the only ISU judge for ARM, and she is qualified to judge both Singles/Pairs and Ice Dancing. Igor Zavozin (who is also Russian---he's Max Zavozin's father) is an ice dancing judge, but only "International". Marina Barseghyan may be Armenian, but she is an International judge for Singles/Pairs only.

So we know Absaliamova (ARM) will be on the FD panel.

AZE. Azerbaijan has just two judges: Irina Kireeva and Irina Nechkina, both Russian. But only Kireeva is an ISU judge qualified for Singles/Pairs and Ice Dancing. Irina Nechkina is an International judge qualified for Ice Dance only.

So we know Irina Kireeva (AZE) will be on the CD and OD panels, and possibly the FD panel.

UZB. Uzbekistan has just two judges: Evgeni Rokhin and Raisa Gagarina, both Russian. Both are qualified to judge Pairs/Singles and Ice Dance, but only Rokhin is an ISU judge. Gagarina is an International judge in all disciplines.

So we know Rokhin (UZB) will be on the CD and OD panels, and possibly on the FD panel.

And YOU would have known all that too, if you had bothered to look it up in Communication #1467, to which I provided a link in a previous post.

So, according to you those same judges are judging Singles/Pairs/Dance and you for some reason only single out Dance event. I wonder if Absaliamova can assure a win for Arina Martenova too? BTW, Absaliamova is not Russian.

 

[attyfan]

Anyone know what the ISU does to protect the computer? While I think that corrupt judging is as likely under CoP as it was under the old system (actually, do the protection of anonymity, I think it more likely), but a surer way of fixing results is hacking the computer. If so, B/A and V/M can tie for gold in 2010.