Mens' LP

[madibe]

Just read the icenetwork article on the Men's LP. http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090207&content_id=61106&vkey=ice_news

"I knew that if I did a solid program with at least one triple Axel, I should be OK, and it always helps to have a good lead after the short," chuckled Chan, who was seven points up on Lysacek after round one.

It is a little disconcerting to me that in a high-level competition, a male figure skater in 2009 knows that he can win with one triple axel.

 

[screech]

Patrick Chan is a beautiful skater, but I'm uncomfortable with a quad-less, barely two triple-axeled teenager already being perceived as the standard-bearer for the sport. He skated a better long than this at TEB earlier this season and only received 156 and change. Here, he got positive GOE on every single jumping element except the flubbed loop in which he received 0 GOE. When has any other skater received positive GOE for a 1A-2T combination? I feel like the generosity he is given by the judges is not extended to any other skater. Like a poster said above, he is rewarded for the things he does well while others are not.

Yep... In other countries.

Seems like bitterness because he's not your favourite. Irina had times she was held up. Sasha... so many skaters have come first just because of who they are. To say that in Canada Patrick is held up... I'd say he probably would have scored about the same scores as tonight if 4CC was in Uzbekistan! Assuming there was the same general inflation all around.

I'm starting to think that people are getting bitter that Canada is becoming successful again after a drought for so many years. Get over it!!!

Actually, Mao got +1 GOE from one judge on her popped 3A yesterday.

As for Patrick, as I've said he did get a very high score and 160 (top of the season) is a bit ridiculous for a flawed skate. However, compared to the scores the other skaters were getting today, 160 seemed right on for what he did compared to the others. He was 3rd in TES and 1st in PCS. I definitely would have had him tops in PCS but would have had Kozuka and Nobu ahead of Evan and Jeremy for PCS (again, my opinion).

Again, 160 is ridiculous but not for the inflated scores being given all around tonight. He deserved to be in first in the LP. Again, my opinion.

Also, Patrick will have a LOT of pressure now going into worlds... we may see the Chan of GPF or we may see the Chan of kick-*ssedness.

 

[bibi]

Did someone notice that Takahiko Kozuka looked all wet on the podium? Am i the only one who saw that? I wonder what happened..I can not believe it is sweat, it's like 1 hour after he has skate..

 

[Luciana]

I could see ladies because I was in Canada yesterday.
But I left there I couldn't see Men

First of all, I like all podium.
Good job Chan, Lysacek, Takahiko.
I'm really happy Lysacek did quad.
Though, I love Chan, his pcs is a little too high.
But his program was really lovely.
I'd like to show his clean LP.

I'm so sorry about our National Champion.
I heard he got a cold. Anyway he did a good job too.
I want him to make better at World.

 

[ceg15]

I'm starting to think that people are getting bitter that Canada is becoming successful again after a drought for so many years. Get over it!!!

Well said, ITA!

 

[Medusa]

I'm starting to think that people are getting bitter that Canada is becoming successful again after a drought for so many years. Get over it!!!

I couldn't care less whether Chan is Canadian or Hobbit. I barely know that USA and Canada are two different countries.

I also don't think that the hometurf had so much to do with it, last year 4CC was also a highly overscored event - in Korea with a Japanese and two Northernamericans on the podium.

My point is that I don't consider this crowning of the overwhelming favourite really good for the sport. As I said above, it seems like they want to make it close to impossible for - in my opinion - just as good skaters to win. It just spoils my very favourite discipline.

 

[Tonichelle]

I couldn't care less whether Chan is Canadian or Hobbit.

He's too tall to be a Hobbit!

 

[GiuliaPlum]

I could see ladies because I was in Canada yesterday.
But I left there I couldn't see Men

First of all, I like all podium.
Good job Chan, Lysacek, Takahiko.
I'm really happy Lysacek did quad.
Though, I love Chan, his pcs is a little too high.
But his program was really lovely.
I'd like to show his clean LP.

I'm so sorry about our National Champion.
I heard he got a cold. Anyway he did a good job too.
I want him to make better at World.

He did; he's always out of this world no matter if he jumps or fell.
so a huge applause to two great musicians, Jeremy and Patrick.

 

[Particle Man]

I'm starting to think that people are getting bitter that Canada is becoming successful again after a drought for so many years. Get over it!!!

People are bitter because the judging isn't fair. They have a right to be, especially the poor naive CoP-loyalists who persist under the notion that CoP was supposed to make things fair.

Anyway, Chan skated the best, I have no problem at all with him winning. Rochette, similar thing, I have no problem with her placement. However, they both had inflated scores. I can't comment on the Pairs and Dance because I honestly didn't care about the results. But Canadians were boosted in points, it was obvious, and again -- to me this just shows once again why CoP was a mistake. It has not brought about fairness, and for every positive thing it's introduced, it's taken 2 away. What a waste of time.

 

[Jaana]

This was a really exciting men´s freeskate, WOW! I think that Chan was just great, but that huge PCS must have had quite a lot of Canada extra as well as his technical score some what, LOL. Hopefully the same does not happen at Olympics!!! Just thinking back about Buttle´s amazing and faultless freeskate in 2008 Worlds where his PCS was judged as lower than that of Joubert, huh!!!

I´m very glad for Lysacek and sorry for Abbott. It was wonderful that Lysacek had a successful quad again and only that little problem with one triple axel. He is getting better and better as we are approaching Worlds, which is as it should be. Well timed peaking which will hopefully include level 4 footwork for Worlds...

 

[Buttercup]

4 Continents Championships is well know for extremely high scores. Takahashi himself (best skater due to world total score - he got this score at 4CC) said that 4CC score is hardly comparable with some others competitions and the fact that his score was bigger than Plushenko's didn't mean that his performance was really better.

Wow - people always say Dai is humble but that takes it to the extreme. I agree 4CC is generously scored, but still, if the guy had the difficulty and the presentation, he definitely shouldn't feel the need to say such a thing. I'm not a fan of either Takahashi or Plushenko, but I'm glad they still hold the records; they earned it.

Hah! Kozuka's Quad didn't get downgraded! First time this season! He still fell - but no downgrade!

Good for him for not giving up on it... maybe by Worlds he'll finally land a clean, fully rotated one; he deserves it. And good for Evan for skating so well.

Patrick Chan is a beautiful skater, but I'm uncomfortable with a quad-less, barely two triple-axeled teenager already being perceived as the standard-bearer for the sport. He skated a better long than this at TEB earlier this season and only received 156 and change. Here, he got positive GOE on every single jumping element except the flubbed loop in which he received 0 GOE. When has any other skater received positive GOE for a 1A-2T combination? I feel like the generosity he is given by the judges is not extended to any other skater. Like a poster said above, he is rewarded for the things he does well while others are not.

"I knew that if I did a solid program with at least one triple Axel, I should be OK, and it always helps to have a good lead after the short," chuckled Chan, who was seven points up on Lysacek after round one. It is a little disconcerting to me that in a high-level competition, a male figure skater in 2009 knows that he can win with one triple axel.

ITA. I think the sad thing is that if Chan's score had been more reasonable, everyone would just be happy for him for skating so well and winning his first major event (IIRC, he'd never even medalled at 4CC/Worlds/GPF). Instead it just looks ridiculous for a guy with an easier jump layout than some of the ladies to be given the kind of score even Plushenko and Lambiel had to work hard for.

My point is that I don't consider this crowning of the overwhelming favourite really good for the sport. As I said above, it seems like they want to make it close to impossible for - in my opinion - just as good skaters to win. It just spoils my very favourite discipline.

I also think it's bad for figure skating. I like seeing nice footwork and good triples, but if this is what the system is rewarding now to such an extreme, I think it's a solid step backwards for figure skating, and frankly, over time I think I'll just be bored. I don't care what Chan's nationality is; there are Canadian skaters whom I like and non-Canadian skaters whom I don't like. But 160 with no quad, no 3A combination, a popped jump (1A-2T combo... I seem to recall a certain French guy being criticized for doing that last year*) and a base value of 66.69 sends the wrong message about risk-taking and innovation.

The ISU needs to tinker with the scoring so that skaters whose approach is different than Chan's, but whose skating is just as good if not better, are rewarded for it. Plushenko also enjoyed this kind of scoring, but he was pushing it technically all the time, and other skaters weren't that far behind except for the 2006 Olympics (and that's because he was the only person who stayed upright).

* ETA: my mistake, the combination I was referring to was 2A-1T.

 

[BelleFilleYuna]

The ISU needs to tinker with the scoring so that skaters whose approach is different than Chan's, but whose skating is just as good if not better, are rewarded for it.

Valid point and exactly what I feel though I love Chan to death.

 

[Jaana]

Unfortunately, the confirmation of this skate will be in LA, and Jeremy may feel more comfortable, and Evan is cool, he will rise to the occasion. But all of them will have to face Joubert and the European judges. I do miss Daisuke.

It seems to me that in this men´s Four Continents competition the judges were from various continents including Europe:

http://www.isuresults.com/results/fc2009/SEG001OF.HTM

 

[skatingbc]

People are bitter because the judging isn't fair. They have a right to be, especially the poor naive CoP-loyalists who persist under the notion that CoP was supposed to make things fair.

Anyway, Chan skated the best, I have no problem at all with him winning. Rochette, similar thing, I have no problem with her placement. However, they both had inflated scores. I can't comment on the Pairs and Dance because I honestly didn't care about the results. But Canadians were boosted in points, it was obvious, and again -- to me this just shows once again why CoP was a mistake. It has not brought about fairness, and for every positive thing it's introduced, it's taken 2 away. What a waste of time.

And 6.0 was just sunshine and roses all the time...

 

[Buttercup]

In the spirit of equal-opportunity criticism, does anyone know how Evan Lysacek managed to get a -1.6 on a jump that was downgraded and was landed with a hand down? Not that I agree with it, but I thought downgraded jumps get an automtaic -3, so even taking into account that the GOEs are matched to the value of a 2A, he seems to have gotten some help there. Or have the rules been changed again?

 

[sisinka]

Actually, Evan was quoted as saying how inspiring Patrick's short program scores were and congratulated him. I think there is great respect among the competitiors. Patrick eluded to this in his interview following his win by saying how great and friendly all the skaters were.

And what should Evan say? Something like:" Yes, Patrick is very often overmarked and I don't agree with it and I think that judges are not doing clean job!!!?" If he spoke like that he would get less than 90 points for his free in Los Angeles - as a gift from judges. Evan is intelligent man who never stops thinking. He knows very well what to say and what to do to look nice and polite.

Patrick looks to be good and polite person. But I think that few skaters who look like his friends are not really frank to him.

But it was Evan who contemplated that quad is not well appreciated. He pointed how dangerous it was to train this jump. And how dangerous it is to try this jump in competiton. And points for this jump are quit low. Those were his own words. And now he speak about inspiration seeing Patrick to win without quad?

 

[Particle Man]

And 6.0 was just sunshine and roses all the time...

I actually don't advocate a return to 6.0. The problem is that the reason we switched to CoP was supposedly to fix the judging improprieties. It hasn't. 6.0 was never the problem nor the reason for the corruption, we fixed the wrong thing and didn't fix the right things. That's why I laugh at those who hold to CoP as some kind of savior, when things like the 4CC scores happen.

And though I don't advocate a return to 6.0, but rather a better solution combining the strengths of both systems, I would still say that if we had simply fixed judging impropriety to begin with, and instituted true oversight at all levels of judging (something the corrupt ISU will never allow), that in the hands of objective and fair judges 6.0 is still a far better overall system than CoP.

 

[sisinka]

This brings us back to the hot topic, the PCS and GOE could make anyoone a winner with not so good technical marks. Is this the way this sports should be?? The judges control the results, over 60- 70% of the total scores?? The same happened with Jeff Buttle when he won Worlds wihtout quad but high marks in PCS. In Jeff's case, at least he got all his jumps in, including two 3A. The base marks on tech scores were almost gimmick , since judges can manipulate the tech scores with GOE in any direction they wanted, - or +.

I agree!!!

New judging system was created to make figure skating more objective (in my opinion it was never less objective than it is now). New judging system should make jumps, spins and presentation equal. The best skater should bring on the ice perfect jumps, spins and presentation and he should be consistent.

Many of you say that Patrick has great presentation. I think he is elegant and his skating skills are great but he doesn't always express the feeling of the music. His Tango short program is elegant and smooth but not pasion! But tango means a lot of pasion! In his short Patrick is not able to express what is the tango music about. Look at Lambiel's tango.

And he is missing quad. In 1998 one quad was executed in long program, in 2002 two quads were needed in long, in 2006 at least one quad in short and one quad in free and in 2010? Only one 3axel?

So...Patrick Chan...we have skater with good presentation but not always expressing the music, with great skating skills and great spins - but without the most difficult jump and without consistency.....he is not full package skater.

I think that Patrick is great skater but he is not God as it can be seen from his points.

 

[Buttercup]

And what should Evan say? Something like:" Yes, Patrick is very often overmarked and I don't agree with it and I think that judges are not doing clean job!!!?" If he spoke like that he would get less than 90 points for his free in Los Angeles - as a gift from judges. Evan is intelligent man who never stops thinking. He knows very well what to say and what to do to look nice and polite.

Oh, that would be funny if someone ever said something like that. Mean and over the top, but funny. Of course it will never happen, because everyone knows that skaters who are not humble and accepting of defeat (and dubious scoring) are petulant jerks who only care about quads .

Patrick looks to be good and polite person. But I think that few skaters who look like his friends are not really frank to him. It was Evan who contemplated that quad is not well appreciated. He pointed how dangerous it was to train this jump. And how dangerous it is to try this jump in competiton. And points for this jump are quite low. Those were his own words. And now he speak about inspiration seeing Patrick to win without quad?

As I wrote before, I don't think this sort of scoring is doing Patrick himself any favors; I think it can make him overconfident to the point that he will stop trying to improve as a skater - or it could create the kind of expectations that would eventually crush him. He seems like a good guy and he's certainly a good skater... I just wish the judges would give him scores that reflect what he's actually doing in comparison to others, and I don't think they have been, this season. I wonder if Mr. Colson were still alive, what he would say about Patrick's "if I just get my 3A, that should be enough" approach. I think he would expect more from his pupil.

 

[rosee]

Oh, that would be funny if someone ever said something like that.

Wel Brian almost said it last year!