Michelle will be at Marshalls

[gezando]

[ I said that Marshall's was a farce--like most people are stating on this forum.

I don't know if most people in GS are stating that Marshalls is a farce, just reading this thread, I see some people are looking forward to watching it. IMO, unless you post a poll stating e.g. "Marshall is a farce" and give a choice of yes, no, or other please specify, then you can't really conclude that most people at GS are stating that Marhall is a farce. JMO

 

[millie]

I don't know if most people in GS are stating that Marshalls is a farce, just reading this thread, I see some people are looking forward to watching it. IMO, unless you post a poll stating e.g. "Marshall is a farce" and give a choice of yes, no, or other please specify, then you can't really conclude that most people at GS are stating that Marhall is a farce. JMO

I am also looking forward to watching Marshalls like most people on this forum. Probably you post that poll to see what people think about Marshall and if it's a farce or not. Farce or not, it doesn't mean a pinch a salt to how the skaters are going to fare at the Olympics. They don't even have to do jumps, just skate around and look pretty and the most popular skater wins. Fact or fiction?

 

[Rgirl]

Oh, someone please finish off this nearly-dead horse that is the Kwans vs. the anti-Kwans debate! I will give somebody an appropriate tool to drive in the death nail! There is no need for the sarcasm or the veiled mud-slinging. I'm glad that everyone seems genuinely pleased to see her back on the ice, whether they like her or not.

Oh, Bronzey and others-- NYMKFan, Red Dog, Heyang, and FlowJo (what a nice post--thanks!) come to mind--have been on the front lines with your rational, understanding, and accurate posts in trying to show that one can be a super Kwan fan, or not, yet respect others' feelings that Michelle doesn't ring everybody's bell the loudest; that for some, she doesn't ring their bell at all; and for a few, they use their bell to ring out, "I hate Kwan!"

I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of posters are enormously annoyed by the Kwan Haters. But the forums do have freedom of opinion and, with certain limitations, freedom of speech. Thus Kwan Haters have the right to make themselves look like a$$es.

But I think the biggest problem is the middle group because they are the largest. They don't write "hate" posts but have endless endurance in writing posts that tell others how wrong they are for not loving Kwan. I don't mean the joke posts, like Mathman's; I mean the, "If you can't see how great Michelle is then you just don't understand skating."

Of course many of the Non-Kwan Fans are far from innocent. They have often been egregious in their responses, escalating their attacks on "middle" Kwan fans rather than just saying something like "Whether or not I understand skating is of no consequence. I'm entitled to like the skaters I like and dislike the ones I dislike. I should say their skating, because with few exceptions, I couldn't care less about their personalities."

I'm not trying to tell people what to say. The above is just an example and probably a poorly written one at that, LOL.

Unfortunately, no matter how many posters such as you, NYMKFan, Red Dog, and FlowJo--please forgive me, other posters who post like those named above for not remembering your names, but I do know and respect very much who you are--I'm afraid Red Dog is right when he says:

...I wish Kwans and non-Kwans could "live" here in peace without all this doubt and resentment waning in the middle. I tried in vain to enable the two parties to come to some sort of agreement, but seems we'd just rather bicker, lowball and slight. Too bad

Just wanted to say I know many posters appreciate all Rational Kwan Fans. Personally, I try to emulate Bronzey's, NYMKFan's, Red Dog's, and now will look for FlowJo's way of dealing with the Kwan Fan vs. Non-Kwan Fan "situation." I also hope you all don't give up, even if it is futile in terms of making peace. OTOH, IMO, class is never futile in affecting the "soul" of a forum.

Rgirl

 

[gezando]

I am also looking forward to watching Marshalls like most people on this forum. Probably you post that poll to see what people think about Marshall and if it's a farce or not.

Why should I post the poll, I am just throwing that in because you claimed most people think Marshall is a farce, and IMO, you don't have the data to back that up

Farce or not, it doesn't mean a pinch a salt to how the skaters are going to fare at the Olympics. They don't even have to do jumps, just skate around and look pretty and the most popular skater wins. Fact or fiction?

Did anyone here claim that there is a direct 1:1 corelation between the winner of this popularity vote and the olys result????

 

[millie]

I appologize to the Golden Skate Forum!! I should not have said that Marshalls is a farce just a farce of a cheesefest. Does that sound better. By the way, I am not a Kwan hater, I just don't love her as much as some people on this forum; but I love watching figure skating. I rest my case.

 

[Rgirl]

Gez--ITA that one cannot state as "fact" that most of the people on this thread are saying that Marshall's is a farce. If nothing else, as I've said before, it gives Michelle a chance to perform her Olympic program in front of an audience, which is generally always good for a skater, especially one who's had Michelle's misfortunes this fall.

Marshall's also gives Sasha a chance to perform her Os program again in front of an audience. One GPS event while she's making changes to her program isn't enough, and she too has had the misfortune of injury, though not as serious as Michelle's, this fall.

I think the skaters couldn't care less about who wins the "Miss Marshall's" crown. As you say, it's not even a real competition. I think they will all be there to make the most of an audience rehearsal of their programs before USN

....Even if the most popular skater does not deliver the best program so what, it is not a real competition. OTOH, we have seen plenty of examples of skaters who did not skate the best, yet come away with the gold in a real competition, it happens. Cohen's placement ahead of Arakawa in Skate Canada 03 comes to mind.

Why how surprising that what came to your mind as an "example," in your opinion, of a skater who did not skate the best yet won the gold was Cohen's placement ahead of Arakawa in '03 Skate Canada.

I think you've got "Get that b***h Sasha" tatooed on your brain.

Rgirl

 

[nymkfan51]

I have been sitting back reading the comments about the big farce of Marshalls and Michelle being there.

Oh, okay ... whatever you say.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Let's all cheer Red Dog for wanting the Kwanfans and the Antikwan fans to live in peace. I believe he will no longer throw those digs like 'Kwan is stagnating' on his posts to provoke the ire of the Kwanfans. Who starts what? That is the problem. Gushing whether it's Sasha's almighty flexibility or Kwan's flow over the ice can be tiresome for many non fans of Sasha and non fans of Kwan when it's constantly being pushed. Nasty comments about either of them do not contribute to the thread. Yes, they are opinions or just speculatings but without fact they are anger provoking. And for Bronze Golden and me just plain boring.

While we know Millie is no lover of Kwan, we should not jump to conclusions on what she says. She was pointing her remarks at the Kwan fans - not Kwan herself. That's a dangerous road to banning but she did not pick out any one fan in particular.

No one got to speculate about why this Marshalls thing is in this format. Some speculate that it is Kwan induced because she has not practiced any skating in 4-5 months. That's no way one can get to the Olympics. Someday we'll learn all about the injuries.

My own speculation is that it was devised to get interest back into skating and they are using the format of calling in for vierwer results not unlike 'Dancing with the Stars' which was the big summer hit.

Nothing wrong with hating this cheesefest, but let's cool it on the contestants. No one in their right mind is going to take the winner of this thing seriously.

Joe

 

[R.D.]

Marshall's may be a joke to all the skating fans (or even the skaters...who knows?) but I'm with those that think ANY opportunity is a good one for Kwan to be out there. I think she tends to be selective in the events she chooses to participate in, and therefore must have a reason for doing this event, even if it's simply to get comfortable out there. See, it's not all a joke.

Let's all cheer Red Dog for wanting the Kwanfans and the Antikwan fans to live in peace. I believe he will no longer throw those digs like 'Kwan is stagnating' on his posts to provoke the ire of the Kwanfans. Who starts what? That is the problem. Gushing whether it's Sasha's almighty flexibility or Kwan's flow over the ice can be tiresome for many non fans of Sasha and non fans of Kwan when it's constantly being pushed. Nasty comments about either of them do not contribute to the thread. Yes, they are opinions or just speculatings but without fact they are anger provoking. And for Bronze Golden and me just plain boring.

Well, sorry, but I believe "Kwan is stagnating" is NOT a slight or bash. Herein lies the problem at its root, but I'm not going to rehash that one again. Huh? How come no one says anything when I said Cohen was stagnating? Apparently I took a "dig" at her, too, yet no one came to her defense. A bit selective...some people are??

I see some posters continually and relentlessly going after Sasha (going by the definition that you guys use to define "bashing" Kwan) but they are rarely if ever called out on it. Herein lies the double standard.

I will not stifle my opinions just to please a certain demographic or fan base on this board. However, I will see to minimizing some of that tension that seems to arise between us Non-Kwan fans and the Kwan lovers.

To me, there's a difference between a Non-Kwan fan and a Kwan Hater. A BIG difference that many people seem to look right past. Remember how some of the general Kwan fans were saying they didn't want to be lumped in with the rabid kwaniacs? Well, we non-Kwan fans don't want to be lumped in with the true Kwan haters. Get it? It works both ways.

That's all I'm saying for now. Sorry if this seems a bit "forward", but I'm just about ready for this to END.

 

[Mathman]

But on the other hand is there a reason for other skaters or their fans to begrudge Irina with her outstanding scores under the CoP's. It works both ways

I agree. If anyone doesn't like the high scores Irina is getting, let them get out on the ice and do better.

MM

 

[R.D.]

I agree. If anyone doesn't like the high scores Irina is getting, let them get out on the ice and do better.

MM

Hmm. In that case should we just do away with sports debate? It's easy for one to say "Why are you nitpicking? You can't do any better." But if we followed this rule, there would be virtually no such thing as sports debates.

 

[Mathman]

IMO, unless you post a poll stating e.g. "Marshall is a farce" and give a choice of yes, no, or other please specify, then you can't really conclude that most people at GS are stating that Marhall is a farce. JMO

Actually, we do have such a poll going on, LOL.

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10782

At the moment, the score is:

(a) This is just plain silly -- 58.54%

(b) I'll decide when I see it -- 34.15%

(c) This is a great idea -- 7.32%

Based on a (self-selected) sample of size 41, there is a margin of error (standard error for the sample proportion) of about +/- 7.7%.

MM

 

[Mathman]

Hmm. In that case should we just do away with sports debate? It's easy for one to say "Why are you nitpicking? You can't do any better." But if we followed this rule, there would be virtually no such thing as sports debates.

What's the debate? Irina got 198.06 points at Cup of Russia. If you want to beat her, you have to get 198.07.

MM

 

[Doggygirl]

I am also looking forward to watching Marshalls like most people on this forum. Probably you post that poll to see what people think about Marshall and if it's a farce or not. Farce or not, it doesn't mean a pinch a salt to how the skaters are going to fare at the Olympics. They don't even have to do jumps, just skate around and look pretty and the most popular skater wins. Fact or fiction?

Hi Millie! First of all, I have no issue at all with yours, or anyone's posts about Marshalls for better or worse. I'm FAR on the record with what I think. That being said,

HEY!!! I want CREDIT!! All publicity is good publicity from my POV, and it really did take me awhile to figure out how to create a poll. So I want credit!!!!!

Just as a side note, I have moved on from my Boycott sort of position. I have now challenged my hubby, who is the techie around here, to figure out how we can make our very small number of computers LOOK like many, many computers for the purpose of free voting rights.

DG

 

[R.D.]

What's the debate? Irina got 198.06 points at Cup of Russia. If you want to beat her, you have to get 198.07.

MM

Well, in that case, let's take the example that the Houston Texans lost to the Baltimore Ravens last week. They blew it big time, coughing up an opportunity to win when THEY HAD THE LEAD w/ONE MINUTE LEFT. They've only won ONE game this entire season. So if I want to complain about how much they ****, should I "wrap up some homeboys" and schedule a special game against Baltimore just to prove we're better first? Ludicrous, IMO.

Bottom line: I am entitled to my own opinions and thoughts even if I can't beat Irina. (I don't even ice skate, lol. I'd probably be lucky to get even 1 point. ) And if some of the best skaters in the world (i.e. Cohen, Arakawa, et al.) can't even beat her, who's to say one of US can?

 

[BronzeisGolden]

Who starts what?

It seems to me there are a few (very few, thank goodness) in every "camp" that choose to respond or react in an inappropriate manner. And, that sort of interrupts the flow of reasonable debate and discussion for everyone. Kwan fans, Kwan haters, Slutskaya fans, Slutskaya haters, (lol, and on and on)etc.......there always seems to be one or two that take things personally and then it becomes a mess.

I think people read a valid criticism such as "Michelle is stagnating" and immediately take it as an outright slam. To me, people are entitled to that type of opinion. It is honest and, if the rest of the post follows that style, not malicious. I may not agree. But, I realize that everyone is different. Now, something like "Michelle is a complete loser, I hope she falls on her a$#...." is not a constructive/rational opinion and rather a hateful, pointless remark that has no place in adult debate. However, it is rarely ever so cut and dry. Additionally, I think that skating is so subjective (even for fans)....you can't always rely on fact to back up all of your opinions in this case. But, you can present your opinion in a respectful manner. That, to me, makes all the difference in the world.

I think some people form certain opinions about other posters, e.g.: Oh, Poster So-and-So criticizes Skater X on a regular basis, so that must automatically mean So-and-So harbors an intensely burning hate within their soul for Skater X and will stop at nothing to bring about their downfall. This isn't necessarily so. I continually criticize certain aspects of Petrova & Tikhinov's skating and voice my general dislike for their style, but that doesn't mean I have some secret motive or some irrational vendetta. The reverse can also be true. Poster Whats-His/Her-Face always offers glowing praise for Skater Y, so that must automatically mean that Whats-His/Her-Face worships a Skater Y hair doll and can never be trusted to offer a balanced/reasonable opinion when there is a Skater Y discussion. This isn't always true, either. In both cases, I think people over-react because of these preconceived ideas about certain posters. It is almost like stereotyping in a way. As long as someone is respectful and doesn't resort to childish jabs or needless emotional explosions....I am open to debating with them all day. That is what makes this site so interesting! If we were all just Michelle drones or Irina drones this board would be decidedly dull.

As for Millie......if you are not sure of her tone, PM her and ask her about what she said. Give people a chance to explain themselves before jumping to any definitive conclusions about their motives, etc. I read something that Millie posted several weeks ago and didn't understand how she meant it. I PMed her, and she politely explained the point fully. She also explained her sense of humor. Now, I can read Millie's posts and understand where she is coming from. But, that is my personal preference. I like to ask someone exactly what they mean before I assume anything. In that case, it worked wonderfully. I like what Millie adds because I know how she means it.

LOL....sorry for the novel.

 

[R.D.]

I think people read a valid criticism such as "Michelle is stagnating" and immediately take it as an outright slam. To me, people are entitled to that type of opinion. It is honest and, if the rest of the post follows that style, not malicious. I may not agree. But, I realize that everyone is different. Now, something like "Michelle is a complete loser, I hope she falls on her a$#...." is not a constructive/rational opinion and rather a hateful, pointless remark that has no place in adult debate. However, it is rarely ever so cut and dry. Additionally, I think that skating is so subjective (even for fans)....you can't always rely on fact to back up all of your opinions in this case. But, you can present your opinion in a respectful manner. That, to me, makes all the difference in the world.

Yes, sure. I'm in TOTAL AGREEMENT here.

People are too hung up on their favorites. See why I prefer to be a "non-fan"?

 

[Mathman]

RD, Millie's question was about people who begrudge Irina's high scores. That is, the people who say, Irina does not deserve high scores because she is ugly, and also she is cheating by taking performance-enhancing drugs, and besides that, I never liked her anyway.

It's like saying, the Pistons scored 97 points last night. But they only deserved to score 92.

Well, they didn't. They scored 97.

I'm not saying that you personally have to go out on the court and hold them to 92. I'm saying that if the other guys want to win, the only way to do it is to score 98. Complaining about the officials -- that's what losers do.

MM

 

[kyla2]

Good To See...

Yup, it's a cheesfest alright but it's still a competition that these true competitors will want to skate their best at-regardless. Yes, it could turn into a Michelle lovefest. But we will all know:
a)Who actually skates the best because they will all be trying to win
b)How Michelle is really doing after her injury
Both of these are worthwhile reasons to look forward to it. Millie, I thoroughly expect Sasha's fans to show up. Not to worry, and just maybe, Michelle's fan's will do the ethical and decent thing and give their votes to the best skater of the night, WHOEVER that may be.

 

[Mathman]

I know I've not been the only one going :scratch: about Why THIS Cheesy Format in the Midst Of Oly Season?

Here's my theory.

1) Marshall's is important to the USFSA as it is a fund raiser. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm sure between ticket sales, ad sponsorship, and the newly added $ potential from phone in votes is important to the USFSA.

2) Speedy made it pretty clear last year that he doesn't like skaters doing non-ISU competitions and withdrawing from GP events.

3) Had MK and Sasha been able to compete both of their scheduled events, then it's safe to assume they both would have had pretty high odds of making GPF. Had things played out this way, the USFSA is presented with a couple of potential problems:

1) If Marshall's was held in a standard competitive format, and a GPF'er wants to withdraw from either Marshall's OR GPF, that's a problem. Either a problem with interest / viewership for the USFSA if the top skaters in popularity pull from Marshall's, or with Speedy wrath if qualifying skaters pull from GPF.

2) If what actually happened happend (which is what happened LOL!) and two of the high profile skaters withdrew from earlier GP events due to injury, but then are well enough to skate Marshall's in the standard competitive format, then Speedy still has an issue....

OK - pick my theory apart now!!!!!!

As fascinating as the never-ending question, "who's meaner, people who like Michelle Kwan or people who don't," may be, believe it or not there was actually a post a few pages back that has some sort of relevance to the topic of this thread. I think Doggygirl raises an interesting question about the Marshall's format.

DG, I think you can stress your first point even stronger.

There was some talk about canceling the Marshall's event this year because of awkward scheduling, etc.

That is the one thing that was not going to happen.

When a sponsor comes to you and says, "Here's a million dollars, let's put on a show," the one thing you don't say is, "Oh, that's a little inconvenient right now, why don't you go away and come back next year."

They'll go away, all right. But they won't come back next year.

The other thing you don't say is, OK, give us the million dollars and we'll check to see if maybe Emily Hughes, Kimmie Meissner, Bebe Liang and Alissa Czisny can work it into their busy schedules. Marshall's, or any other sponsor, not to mention the television network, is going to insist on the A team.

So what about the format? I am only speculating here, but I think it is significant that no announcement was made about the contest until, really, the last possible moment consistent with advertising and publicity concerns. I think it is quite likely that they decided to play it by ear and see what happened with Michelle, with Sasha, and how the GP was shaping up, before making any final decisions.

I also think it is entirely possible that the skaters had input into the format, and that they didn't want an all-out serious competition at this time. But for $50 grand they would allow their arms to be twisted to show up and do a couple of exhibition numbers.

What I wonder is whether Michelle will actually debut some version of one of her prospective Olympic programs. Or will she just go through the motions, exhibition style.

Mathman