Nathan Chen issues apology for interview

[Flying Feijoa]

I am afraid I disagree that we should venture into what the “general public“ “probably” thinks.

The general public where? Japan? Russia? Canada? USA?

What is “feminine”? By whose definition?

The question is silly, loaded, and indeed, cannot be answered without 1) a great deal of definitional work or 2) accepting stereotypes.

As Nathan himself has said it was best not answered in that format. And I agree with Nathan.

I'm fine with Nathan's apology (as you'd know from my earlier posts), but I think you might be unnecessarily confrontational towards AxelLover. I am sure they dislike stereotypes as much as you do.

The offending question: "Isn't figure skating seen as feminine?' Your ideal response could be condensed as "I refuse to answer this foolish stereotype-riddled question", while their response is "Some people stereotype all skating as being feminine, but not all skating fits this stereotype."

The advantage of your response is that the responder has a clear moral stance condemning stereotypes, but the downside is that they don't clearly explain why the stereotype is wrong. The other response attempts to lay out the stereotype and rebut it. It's riskier because if not executed carefully, it sounds like the responder agrees with the stereotype. Someone like Paul Poirier (one of the most tactful and articulate skaters/humans on the planet) could probably manage the latter approach. I agree that Nathan (in that place and time) wasn't skilled enough to pull it off, and it probably is wisest for most skaters (who are generally young and not well-versed in talking about socially complex topics) not to engage.

 

[el henry]

I'm fine with Nathan's apology (as you'd know from my earlier posts), but I think you might be unnecessarily confrontational towards AxelLover. I am sure they dislike stereotypes as much as you do.

The offending question: "Isn't figure skating seen as feminine?' Your ideal response could be condensed as "I refuse to answer this foolish stereotype-riddled question", while their response is "Some people stereotype all skating as being feminine, but not all skating fits this stereotype."

The advantage of your response is that the responder has a clear moral stance condemning stereotypes, but the downside is that they don't clearly explain why the stereotype is wrong. The other response attempts to lay out the stereotype and rebut it. It's riskier because if not executed carefully, it sounds like the responder agrees with the stereotype. Someone like Paul Poirier (one of the most tactful and articulate skaters/humans on the planet) could probably manage the latter approach. I agree that Nathan (in that place and time) wasn't skilled enough to pull it off, and it probably is wisest for most skaters (who are generally young and not well-versed in talking about socially complex topics) not to engage.

Thank you for explaining this more thoroughly; I agree with your points. We all want the same thing: figure skating free of stereotypes, free of any kind of skating being labeled feminine, masculine, whatever, and for all skaters to skate as they feel comfortable.

I also agree that it is very difficult to say what you mean in the spur of the moment. And in saying all this, I think (I hope) I have been clear that I do not in any way shape or form think Nathan *meant* it the way he phrased it.

But I also see no point in twisting his words, substituting and changing the words just to make them fit what we think Nathan meant. And Nathan knows it, he didn't try to backtrack or twist his own words, he did an excellent job with his apology, and is to be applauded.

 

[shine]

We do not know what Nathan meant by “fairly LGBTQ-dominated” and it’s tiring to see all the justifications given for the words he chose. Even if there are more LGBTQ athletes participating in skating compared to other sports, that hardly makes them “dominant”. I even saw someone attempt to justify his words by stating that half of the past eight US National Men’s Champions are gay, with one more rumored to be (and I hope I don’t have to explain why outing people is wrong).

Again to reiterate, Nathan said in his apology:
“But instead of saying something meaningful I blurted out statements that aren’t even true, used language that’s harmful to the LGBTQIA+ community and to women and minorities and centered the response around myself.”

Why some of his fans continue attempting to justify his words, when he did just the opposite in his apology - I do not understand.

Good for him for apologizing, but I personally would've rather that he also provided an explanation that more clearly articulated his earlier words, especially since I do believe there was a lot of validity to them based on my interpretation. But instead, the way the apology was given I have no idea what exactly he was apologizing for and was left pretty confused. I don't understand why some have the notion that an apology is somehow nobler than an explanation. An explanation is not the same thing as an excuse; explanation is a way to foster communication and further understanding; good explanation also requires patience and a lot of thought. I also don't understand why some apparently feel that if an apology was made, his entire interview should be dismissed and anyone who dares to hold an opposing view on this should shut up, end of story. Moreover, if his earlier words happened to resonate with me to any extend, am I supposed to just dismiss myself now and admit my view is wrong because he apologized for himself--and by association, for me, as well--already? I'm his fan, but no, he doesn't speak for me on every single thought.

 

[oatmella]

Good for him for apologizing, but I personally would've rather that he also provided an explanation that more clearly articulated his earlier words, especially since I do believe there was a lot of validity to them based on my interpretation. But instead, the way the apology was given I have no idea what exactly he was apologizing for and was left pretty confused. I don't understand why some have the notion that an apology is somehow nobler than an explanation. An explanation is not the same thing as an excuse; explanation is a way to foster communication and further understanding; good explanation also requires patience and a lot of thought. I also don't understand why some apparently feel that if an apology was made, his entire interview should be dismissed and anyone who dares to hold an opposing view on this should shut up, end of story. Moreover, if his earlier words happened to resonate with me to any extend, am I supposed to just dismiss myself now and admit my view is wrong because he apologized for himself--and by association, for me, as well--already? I'm his fan, but no, he doesn't speak for me on every single thought.

I actually didn’t find his apology “noble” and am still not feeling great about what he said. An explanation would have been appreciated - but we didn’t receive one from him, so we still don’t know what he meant to say in that interview. At this point, I have heard many interpretations, explanations, and justifications for what he said. One can identify with the words he said, but at this point it doesn’t seem like it has as much to do with Nathan himself - since his convoluted answer made his meaning unclear - than one’s point of view.

Obviously Nathan doesn’t speak for you on every single thought or even any thought, but you also can’t speak to his true intentions or meaning either. Your interpretation may have more to do with your perspective than his.

 

[el henry]

Good for him for apologizing, but I personally would've rather that he also provided an explanation that more clearly articulated his earlier words, especially since I do believe there was a lot of validity to them based on my interpretation. But instead, the way the apology was given I have no idea what exactly he was apologizing for and was left pretty confused. I don't understand why some have the notion that an apology is somehow nobler than an explanation. An explanation is not the same thing as an excuse; explanation is a way to foster communication and further understanding; good explanation also requires patience and a lot of thought. I also don't understand why some apparently feel that if an apology was made, his entire interview should be dismissed and anyone who dares to hold an opposing view on this should shut up, end of story. Moreover, if his earlier words happened to resonate with me to any extend, am I supposed to just dismiss myself now and admit my view is wrong because he apologized for himself--and by association, for me, as well--already? I'm his fan, but no, he doesn't speak for me on every single thought.

I found his apology absolutely clear. I would have a difficult time "explaining" it because I don't know what isn't clear. But here goes....

Figure skating is not a sport dominated by "homosexuals". LGBTQ athletes face discrimination in all sports, including figure skating. Nathan's identity as a straight man has zippo to do with being "welcoming" in figure skating.

Now you may not agree with that, and that's fine. Of course no one is saying you can't disagree with Nathan. My issue has been with folks saying "What's wrong with saying figure skating is dominated by gays" (Really)" "what's wrong with Nathan just throwing in there, when no one asked, that he's a straight man" and "what's wrong with, etc."

*under the incorrect guise of defending Nathan*

Anyone can say those things. Nathan disagrees with them and does not support them, but anyone can feel free to disagree with him

 

[AxelLover]

free of any kind of skating being labeled feminine, masculine,

Just to make sure I understand your views – are you saying that skating in general should not be labeled feminine or are you saying that it is always wrong to describe a given figure skating performance by a given skater as feminine/masculine?

 

[Tolstoj]

Late but i didn't find the bit particularly offensive.

I mean i can see someone being hurted by his use of "us" and "them" as if we are all not the same, but from the tone it didn't seem he intented to insult anyone and immediately posted the apology so no drama needed in my eyes.

 

[el henry]

Just to make sure I understand your views – are you saying that skating in general should not be labeled feminine or are you saying that it is always wrong to describe a given figure skating performance by a given skater as feminine/masculine?

Thank you for asking.

There is no need to use the terms masculine and feminine when talking about figure skating, or "more female" or "more male" or "girly" or "not girly" or whatever terms come to mind. Those terms are so subjective as to have little meaning.

For example, I do not find Nathan's skating masculine, I do not find it feminine. I find it to be Nathan's style. I do not find Yuzu's style masculine or feminine, I find it to be Yuzu's style. And so on for every skater.

In this wonderful sport of men's figure skating, we have all different styles: Nathan's style, Yuzu's style, Yuma's style, Shoma's style , Mikhail's style, Keegan's style, Jason's style, Kévin's style, and so forth. ETA: It does little good to describe them with an adjective that will mean different things to different people.

The best answer, IMO, to those who would use stereotypical terms is to refuse to engage the stereotype: come and watch all these exciting mens figure skaters with such different styles. No stereotypes or classifications necessary

 

[shine]

I found his apology absolutely clear. I would have a difficult time "explaining" it because I don't know what isn't clear.

I absolutely disagree.

Figure skating is not a sport dominated by "homosexuals". LGBTQ athletes face discrimination in all sports, including figure skating. Nathan's identity as a straight man has zippo to do with being "welcoming" in figure skating.

The problem with this is that this is purely your interpretation AND extrapolation that his words implied "there's no discrimination against LGBTQ athletes in figure skating". When I heard it, my mind did not think it had anything to do with how LGBTQ athletes are doing on a social level considering the particular context of his answer, and had everything to do with the general success these athletes have had had *regardless* of the social issues they may or may not have faced. Again, dominated could very well mean "there are on average more than other sports", "LGBTQ athletes have a history of placing well in the sport", or "LGBTQ athletes have been some of the biggest names in the sport". I'm sorry that you seemed to have gone ahead and assumed the worst. I think you might be aware that in the Nathan FF when we first heard an apology was given, some of us were genuinely puzzled and curious as to how those who felt hurt by Nathan's words were interpreting him, and exactly what was it that hurt them. I'm pointing this out to show that MANY did not take your interpretation as the default. It actually took some researching to figure out that it was this particular interpretation that was the root cause of the hurt, which to this day, I disagree with despite his apology.

Now you may not agree with that, and that's fine. Of course no one is saying you can't disagree with Nathan. My issue has been with folks saying "What's wrong with saying figure skating is dominated by gays" (Really)" "what's wrong with Nathan just throwing in there, when no one asked, that he's a straight man" and "what's wrong with, etc."

See above.

 

[oatmella]

I absolutely disagree.

The problem with this is that this is purely your interpretation AND extrapolation that his words implied "there's no discrimination against LGBTQ athletes in figure skating". When I heard it, my mind did not think it had anything to do with how LGBTQ athletes are doing on a social level considering the particular context of his answer, and had everything to do with the general success these athletes have had had *regardless* of the social issues they may or may not have faced. Again, dominated could very well mean "there are on average more than other sports", "LGBTQ athletes have a history of placing well in the sport", or "LGBTQ athletes have been some of the biggest names in the sport". I'm sorry that you seemed to have gone ahead and assumed the worst. I think you might be aware that in the Nathan FF when we first heard an apology was given, some of us were genuinely puzzled and curious as to how those who felt hurt by Nathan's words were interpreting him, and exactly what was it that hurt them. I'm pointing this out to show that MANY did not take your interpretation as the default. It actually took some researching to figure out that it was this particular interpretation that was the root cause of the hurt, which to this day, I disagree with despite his apology.

See above.

If it takes “researching” to understand why and how Nathan’s words might have hurt some or even MANY people, including some of his fans - then you’re obviously not part of the group that he attempted to apologize to. You can disagree all you want, but that does not change the fact that some people (and not all of them Hanyu fans or antis!) were hurt by the words and content of his interview. Your “interpretation” is no more valid than many others’.

Just as Nathan doesn’t speak for you, no matter how much research and interpretation you attempt - you surely don’t speak for him either.

 

[Skater Boy]

Thank you for explaining this more thoroughly; I agree with your points. We all want the same thing: figure skating free of stereotypes, free of any kind of skating being labeled feminine, masculine, whatever, and for all skaters to skate as they feel comfortable.

I also agree that it is very difficult to say what you mean in the spur of the moment. And in saying all this, I think (I hope) I have been clear that I do not in any way shape or form think Nathan *meant* it the way he phrased it.

But I also see no point in twisting his words, substituting and changing the words just to make them fit what we think Nathan meant. And Nathan knows it, he didn't try to backtrack or twist his own words, he did an excellent job with his apology, and is to be applauded.

I respect Nathan. I don't think he meant anything bad by his comments but it was poorly worded. I am not sure we should applaud an apology. This is not the olympics for apologies.

 

[Mamamiia]

I was also very confused when I first saw the apology from his Instagram story. But on his Twitter account Nathan wrote “I’ve taken the time to read your words, hear from many of you personally, and have some really important conversations. I appreciate your honesty and accountability, and I owe you an apology.” I think this gives enough explanation why he decided to apologize and who he was apologizing to. I choose to believe that those who cared enough to reach out to him and have conversations with him are actual fans of figure skating or Nathan.

 

[eppen]

Back in 2014/5 season when some of the big coming out stories took place (thinking of Eric Radford and Adam Rippon), it was said often how FS is more accepting or sth towards its LGBTQIA+ representatives, but in the end Eric and Adam were some of the very first to do it during their competetive careers.

Despite the common stereotype, it is still not normal for especially guys to be out whilst still competing. el henry's remark on only 2 openly gay single skater guys prompted me to look at the ISU ranking list and indeed could not think of any others who would have maybe not made any formal declarations, but would have "outed" themselves in their social media etc. Instead I knew of quite a few with girlfriends or wives (no hate messages for those social media posts?!).

What comes to the style of movement, I do think men have been able to create themselves quit a lot of freedom over the past four-five decades. Women led the way in the 1960s to make skating resemble dance (ballet mostly) by starting to use active arms and body movement. For men, the stiff arms strictly on the sides remained the standard movement style well into the 1970s. Since then, things have changed a lot and in the 2000s, softer, lyrical styles started to get accepted for guys and in a way, IMO men can pick and choose what they wish to do.

However, whatever they choose, classical ballet or hiphop style, it will probably still be regarded as feminine/unacceptable for "real men" by many merely because it is dance/figure skating...

E

 

[AxelLover]

Thank you for asking.

There is no need to use the terms masculine and feminine when talking about figure skating, or "more female" or "more male" or "girly" or "not girly" or whatever terms come to mind. Those terms are so subjective as to have little meaning.

For example, I do not find Nathan's skating masculine, I do not find it feminine. I find it to be Nathan's style. I do not find Yuzu's style masculine or feminine, I find it to be Yuzu's style. And so on for every skater.

In this wonderful sport of men's figure skating, we have all different styles: Nathan's style, Yuzu's style, Yuma's style, Shoma's style , Mikhail's style, Keegan's style, Jason's style, Kévin's style, and so forth. ETA: It does little good to describe them with an adjective that will mean different things to different people.

The best answer, IMO, to those who would use stereotypical terms is to refuse to engage the stereotype: come and watch all these exciting mens figure skaters with such different styles. No stereotypes or classifications necessary

Thank you for clearing this up.

I feel the same about Nathan and Yuzuru. I don't really find the skating styles of these two particular skaters masculine nor feminine. I do however find e.g. Kurt Browning's, Alexei Yagudin's, Brian Joubert's, Daisuke Takahashi's, Javier Fernandez's, Mikhail Kolyada's and Daniel Samohin's skating masculine and I could also name a few male skaters whose skating I find feminine (which doesn't mean I dislike it). Of course anyone can disagree with me and that's totally fine. Of course different people can understand the terms "masculine" and "feminine" differently, but I don't think this is a reason to completely abandon these terms when describing our subjective feelings and opinions on the skating style of a given skater. Otherwise we would have to abandon half of English vocabulary.

 

[el henry]

Thank you for clearing this up.

I feel the same about Nathan and Yuzuru. I don't really find the skating styles of these two particular skaters masculine nor feminine. I do however find e.g. Kurt Browning's, Alexei Yagudin's, Brian Joubert's, Daisuke Takahashi's, Javier Fernandez's, Mikhail Kolyada's and Daniel Samohin's skating masculine and I could also name a few male skaters whose skating I find feminine (which doesn't mean I dislike it). Of course anyone can disagree with me and that's totally fine. Of course different people can understand the terms "masculine" and "feminine" differently, but I don't think this is a reason to completely abandon these terms when describing our subjective feelings and opinions on the skating style of a given skater. Otherwise we would have to abandon half of English vocabulary.

I appreciate your answer. I will only say that I do not want to abandon half the English language, but those related to gender to describe skating.

if someone put a gun to my head, I would describe *all* the skaters you mentioned as being feminine in at least some of their skating styles. I went through the list of top ten skaters as neither feminine or masculine for a reason
ETA: If I had had time, I would have listed every men’s skater on the ISU.

but I don’t think we’ll agree and that’s OK. I just can’t wait for these skaters to start skating

 

[Scott512]

Classy, sure. I still stand by my opinion that he did absolutely nothing wrong. People don't want to acknowledge it, but the view that figure skating is wimpy and feminine exists. I was happy he openly addressed that and I don't think he should have to apologize for pointing out that figure skating isn't inherently feminine. It has a place for everyone, even for those who aren't feminine. I'm sure the haters will continue to hate either way.

Exactly! Well said.

 

[TontoK]

I confess I'm scratching my head that this conversation is still ongoing. Perhaps it's a generational thing. Personally, I didn't care one way or the other about what he said, and I took his apology as... OK, that's fine, moving on.

Language and perceptions about language shift over time. Maybe that's the explanation for my disconnect. I still cringe inwardly when I hear someone say "Congratulations!" to a bride. In the time and place I was raised, that was considered ill-mannered. A groom was congratulated, and bride received your "Best Wishes!"

To congratulate a bride smacked of "Hey, you snagged a man! Didn't think you could do it!" On the flip side, congratulating a groom was meant as a compliment to the bride...

Sorry for the detour. I'm seeking some way to relate to those who are distressed about this. Of course, the explanation may just lie in the fact that I'm generally not a sensitive person.

 

[eppen]

IMO this remains somewhat interesting beyond the messed-up message and apology because of the question of the image men's FS has particularly in the west, that it is a sport mainly for gay men. As I said earlier, I don't think the Russian or Asian skaters face similar problems in the media or as general attitudes. I went to Moscow and Minsk to the Europeans and it was cool to see almost as many men as there were women in the audience. But this does not make things much better when it comes to eg Russian men coming out and I am pretty sure there are gay figure skaters in Russia...

I also started to think of classical ballet and how it is perceived as feminine. And I wonder if it is based mostly on the traditional costuming, you know "men in tights"? After all, what they do is generally über masculine with the biggest and most difficult tricks filling the solos, the roles are distinctly male. Even supporting the ballerina is a male activity requiring strength and skill not to mention ideologically also keeping the woman safe. As a concept, it is not so different from what gets done for example in break dance (apart ofc from partnering). But because it gets done with a different aesthetic from jeans and T-shirts and street scenes, it is likely never to be acceptable to those who think that real men don't dance.

Traditional gender roles are very strongly present in the FS rule books, perhaps most clearly regarding the appearance of the skaters, but to some extent also when it comes to tech content. Men have had longer programs until only very recently, some stuff is still forbidden for women. Some of the moves are almost gender specific even without rules - not very many guys do spirals or layback spins. The pairs/ice dance is strictly within heterosexual norms and there are but few role breaks in the moves - women doing lifts have been seen, but think of guys doing the flexibility bits in a pair spins?

E