New ISU rules for the upcoming season

[YuBluByMe]

Reynolds and Gorshkov were after 2016. But the only reason I started from the first successful landed is because I think it’s easier to narrow it down that way. But then maybe not. How many 4Lz attempts were there in international competition before 2011? Probably not a lot. How nany 4F falls before 2016? I remember Takahashi going for a 4F a while back.

So we have Voronov in 2018 in Nepela and I can’t find Lazukin’s 4Lo attempt. I’m about to go on a 4Lz, 4F, 4Lo research journey because I have nothing but time on my hands. Detective Yub Lub shall return.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Reynolds and Gorshkov were after 2016. But the only reason I started from the first successful landed is because I think it’s easier to narrow it down that way. But then maybe not. How many 4Lz attempts were there in international competition before 2011? Probably not a lot. How nany 4F falls before 2016? I remember Takahashi going for a 4F a while back.

So we have Voronov in 2018 in Nepela and I can’t find Lazukin’s 4Lo attempt. I’m about to go on a 4Lz, 4F, 4Lo research journey because I have nothing but time on my hands. Detective Yub Lub shall return.

Lazukin 2017.

Anyways 4Lz before competition was Adam Rippon, Evgeni Plushenko, Micheal Weiss, Vladislav Sesganov. Thats it as far as I know, but others did in practice

 

[eaglehelang]

One should also consider probability because some of ya’ll are overestimating the amount of successful 4Lz attempts. I believe only 11 (13 including ladies) have landed a 4Lz in international competition (includes Juniors) in the nine years since the 4Lz was first landed.* But of how many attempts in 9 years? Of those 13, only half have landed a 4Lz in combination. Ya’ll stop exaggerating!

4Lo and 4F are easier to follow because they were both first landed in 2016. The men that have attempted a 4Lo in international competition since 2016 are Hanyu, Uno, Chen, Krasnozhon, Grassl, Samarin, and Rizzo. Grassl is already landing 4Lo>+ 3T. Only Rizzo doesn’t have a successful attempt yet so 4Lo is already at 86% Six skaters (includes Trusova) have landed the 4F in international competition. It’s been “only” four years and the 4Lo and 4F are looking pretty good in comparison to the more difficult 4Lz.

*And yes, that number includes the dude at Europeans that had the audacity to land a 4Lz in the SP without having a 3A.

I think the numbers are 13 including juniors for 4Lutz, 6 for 4 Flip, 5 for 4 Loop if according to Skatingscores.com. Counted from 2011.

Attempts for all 3 should counted from 2011 if want to be fair.

In any case, this 4 Lutz thingy became more in light after the ladies started landing it. If it's that hard, the ladies should not be able to land it so easily(according to the othercode of points).

Nobody bats an eye if a male diver performs 3.5, 3.6 difficulty dive. But if a female diver attempts even 3.4 difficulty dive its a big thing. Usually that female diver will be the only one in the finals attempting a 3.4 difficulty.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

I think the numbers are 13 including juniors for 4Lutz, 6 for 4 Flip, 5 for 4 Loop if according to Skatingscores.com. Counted from 2011.

Attempts for all 3 should counted from 2011 if want to be fair.

In any case, this 4 Lutz thingy became more in light after the ladies started landing it. If it's that hard, the ladies should not be able to land it so easily(according to the othercode of points).

Nobody bats an eye if a male diver performs 3.5, 3.6 difficulty dive. But if a female diver attempts even 3.4 difficulty dive its a big thing. Usually that female diver will be the only one in the finals attempting a 3.4 difficulty.

Because Ladies aren't doing similar difficulty to men.
They are prerotating much more than the best men's 4Lz. (Ironically one of the new things introduced that can be punished is excessive prerotation).

 

[YuBluByMe]

I’m still doing my research but here’s my findings so far: The dude that landed the 4Lz at Euros this year without a 3A has been attempting 4Lz since 2017. His name is Larry Louplover. Daniel Samohin attempted a 4Lo in the free skate at 2017 US international classic. This was a surprise for me. So far Krasnozhon so far has the most 4Lo attempts and Chen and Zhou are the only skaters to have landed a 4F in combination. Say whut???

 

[kolyadafan2002]

I’m still doing my research but here’s my findings so far: The dude that landed the 4Lz at Euros this year without a 3A has been attempting 4Lz since 2017. His name is Larry Louplover. Daniel Samohin attempted a 4Lo in the free skate at 2017 US international classic. This was a surprise for me. So far Krasnozhon so far has the most 4Lo attempts and Chen and Zhou are the only skaters to have landed a 4F in combination. Say whut???

Larry Loupolover is one of my faves (for his commitment rather than skating itself).

Most don't do 4F in combination as they tend to put it on an easier quad in the sp, or repeat 4T in LP.

Shoma Uno, Yaroslav Paniot, chen, Zhou are main notable 4F attempts/land

Also Krasnozhon (Weird he's the one trying these quads) also tried 4F.
Daniel Samsanov has tried 4F.
Jun Hwan Cha tried 4F.
Grassl has done 4F
Samarin has done 4F.

the "fact" only 2 have done it in combo is false:
Mr Samarin has done 4F+2T clean when he only did 2Lz instead of 4Lz at worlds 2019. Shoma uno did 4F+3T clean at WTT 2019.

 

[eaglehelang]

Because Ladies aren't doing similar difficulty to men.
They are prerotating much more than the best men's 4Lz. (Ironically one of the new things introduced that can be punished is excessive prerotation).

The Russian Ladies fans would disagree with you. And well, the judges saw fit to call it a legit 4Lutz. So officially, it's 4Lutz landed.

In any case, 13 skaters being able to land the 4 Lutz to me is a lot. I would expect it to be less than 5, if it's 2nd hardest quad after the 4A according to code of points.

If according to the namelist of those qualified for WC this year, I can offhand think of 7 to 8 men who will perform the 4Lutz.
Maybe 5 for 4F and less than 5 for 4Loop.
If it's really that hard, supposed to be only 2 or 3 men would dare perform the 4Lutz out of the entire field.
Yes I know the argument is they train for the highest points jumps. Thing is, highest points ones is supposed harder to successfully land, not toms, dicks & harrys being able to do it.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

The Russian Ladies fans would disagree with you. And well, the judges saw fit to call it a legit 4Lutz. So officially, it's 4Lutz landed.

In any case, 13 skaters being able to land the 4 Lutz to me is a lot. I would expect it to be less than 5, if it's 2nd hardest quad after the 4A according to code of points.

If according to the namelist of those qualified for WC this year, I can offhand think of 7 to 8 men who will perform the 4Lutz.
Maybe 5 for 4F and less than 5 for 4Loop.
If it's really that hard, supposed to be only 2 or 3 men would dare perform the 4Lutz out of the entire field.
Yes I know the argument is they train for the highest points jumps. Thing is, highest points ones is supposed harder to successfully land, not toms, dicks & harrys being able to do it.

And many people land 4T before 3A. Many land 4S before 4T. Kroszhon landed 4Lo and not 4T. Loupolover landed 4Lz and not 3A.

Everybody finds different jumps easier. Many conquer an easier quad, before aiming for the 4Lz as its worth the most points.

People will train 4Lz as it's worth more, not because it's easier.

You want to see less 4Lz, then make all quads worth the same. You'll instantly see more of the other quads, as they are easier.

Again, different people find different jumps easier. Some land 3Lz before 3T. This happens.

 

[gkelly]

Out of interest I wonder if a jump like 4Lo from inside edge is possible.
Axel from inside is possible? Or maybe make walley (2W,3W,4W) a valid jumping element?
Maybe 2 more jumping passes for future?

If you mean jumping from the back inside edge of the landing foot (i.e., same foot but opposite edge from a loop takeoff), that is indeed a walley. I agree I would like to see it added to the Scale of Values with multiple rotations.

I would expect to see some doubles in competition within a year or two of 2W being given a value commensurate with its difficulty. Triple walleys would probably take several years more, a whole new generation of skaters who grew up doing double walleys.

For forward inside takeoff, do you mean forward inside edge of the landing foot? That's called an inside axel. I'd like to see that added to the Scale of Values for multiple revolutions as well, with the same caveats.

FYI, Julie Lynn Holmes used to do double inside axels in the early 1970s, and Elvis Stojko attempted one at 1993 Worlds.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting to ever see a quads from these takeoffs. There's a reason they never became popular even as doubles. As far as I can tell, too hard to get enough power/height for multiple revolutions.

If you mean a jump taking off from the forward inside edge of the non-landing foot, i.e., a counterrotated forward takeoff from the axel takeoff foot, I think that would be even more difficult. People can do a jumped FI counter with half revolution only, landing on the same foot (BI edge) or changing feet in the air to BO edge as a transitional little hop, but I've never seen anyone attempt such a takeoff with even 1 1/2 revolutions or even 1 revolution landing forward on two feet. I think it's just too difficult to expect doubles let alone triples much less quads.

Would there be a better name for this than "forward inside counter jump"? Would you be brave enough to attempt 1 full revolution with a forward two-foot landing to see what the mechanics might be like?

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Because Ladies aren't doing similar difficulty to men.
They are prerotating much more than the best men's 4Lz. (Ironically one of the new things introduced that can be punished is excessive prerotation).

Well, Yuzu and Nathan are getting +4 or +5 GOE for their clean 4Lz, and ladies 'clean lutz' was scored with +1 to +3 GOE. The 'ladies lutz' is already 'punished' in the judging sheets by being awarded with lower GOE scores, which contribute to much lower general marks for the same jump (at least 1 to 2 points lower scores, and 2 points difference is equal to the base value of the 2Lz). So, I really don't see a problem in the scoring there.

 

[YuBluByMe]

I started from 1998 to the end of the 2017 season (not calendar year and includes WTT):

4Lo: 26 attempts. 12 successfully landed between two men: Hanyu (9!) and Uno (3). Attempts were made by Kevin Reynolds (2012 WTT FS), Gordei Gorshkov (2016 Nepela Trophy FS), Boyang Jin (2017 4CC FS), and Alexei Krasnozhon (first attempt was 2015 JGP Riga Cup).

4F: 34 attempts. 19 successfully landed between two men: Chen (12) and Uno (7). The only other 4F attempt was Daisuke Takahashi (2010 NHK FS and 2011 NHK FS.).

4Lz: 61 attempts. 25 successfully landed among Brandon Mroz, Boyang Jin, Nathan Chen, and Vincent Zhou. Other attempts were made by Michael Weiss (1998 Olympics FS), Evgeni Plushenko (2001 Cup of Russia), Adam Rippon, Vladislav Sesganov, Larry Louplover, Anton Shulepov, and Mikhail Kolyada.

The 4Lz is attempted a lot more than 4Lo and the 4F, but it’s also the one that skaters are failing at the most. More than 20 of the successful landings belong to Jin and Chen so hardly anyone else landed the jump after the first attempt in 1998.

This was fun and I’ve seen some fascinating protocols. I’ll do the last three years tomorrow and edit my post with the new numbers.

 

[eaglehelang]

And many people land 4T before 3A. Many land 4S before 4T. Kroszhon landed 4Lo and not 4T. Loupolover landed 4Lz and not 3A.

Everybody finds different jumps easier. Many conquer an easier quad, before aiming for the 4Lz as its worth the most points.

People will train 4Lz as it's worth more, not because it's easier.

You want to see less 4Lz, then make all quads worth the same. You'll instantly see more of the other quads, as they are easier.

Again, different people find different jumps easier. Some land 3Lz before 3T. This happens.

I follow the "difficulty" in terms of code of points.

Shen/Zhao did a difficult entry to the death spiral. They were one of the very few(if not the only pair) who did it that way. Needless to say they did it cos they could & its worth more points.

Over the years, there have been many attempts to land throw quad jumps in pairs.This was back when throw quads was worth more points before they changed the rules after 2018 Olympics.

They started long before the 1st 4Lutz was landed in mens. Till today, offhand can count with 1 hand how many pairs have landed it.
This is what the code of points is supposed to reflect -> Athletes try but few are successful thats why the higher points.

The guy who couldn't land a 3A but can land a 4 Lutz is the exception, not the rule. Almost all the senior men can land a 3A, they are expected to. Many can land a 3A but struggle with quads. Even with the quad craze, some of the older ones still could not land a quad till today.

As to whether there will more attempts for 4F & 4Loop after the BV is equalized, it remains to be seen. The penalty for a fall is harsher than before 2018 so the skaters cannot do "planned fall" 4F or 4Loop anymore like some of them did (with the 3 quads) up to Olympics 2018.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I started from 1998 to the end of the 2017 season (not calendar year and includes WTT):

4Lo: 26 attempts. 12 successfully landed between two men: Hanyu (9!) and Uno (3). Attempts were made by Kevin Reynolds (2012 WTT FS), Gordei Gorshkov (2016 Nepela Trophy FS), Boyang Jin (2017 4CC FS), and Alexei Krasnozhon (first attempt was 2015 JGP Riga Cup).

4F: 34 attempts. 19 successfully landed between two men: Chen (12) and Uno (7). The only other 4F attempt was Daisuke Takahashi (2010 NHK FS and 2011 NHK FS.).

4Lz: 61 attempts. 25 successfully landed among Brandon Mroz, Boyang Jin, Nathan Chen, and Vincent Zhou. Other attempts were made by Michael Weiss (1998 Olympics FS), Evgeni Plushenko (2001 Cup of Russia), Adam Rippon, Vladislav Sesganov, Larry Louplover, Anton Shulepov, and Mikhail Kolyada.

The 4Lz is attempted a lot more than 4Lo and the 4F, but it’s also the one that skaters are failing at the most. More than 20 of the successful landings belong to Jin and Chen so hardly anyone else landed the jump after the first attempt in 1998.

This was fun and I’ve seen some fascinating protocols. I’ll do the last three years tomorrow and edit my post with the new numbers.

Which source are you using?

Uno has definitely landed more than 3 clean quad loops. 6 according to this: https://skatingscores.com/unit/jpn_shoma_uno/

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

As far as the argument that frequency of attempts by skaters as determining the difficulty of a jump is rather short-sighted. People train a harder jump like a 4Z because it’s worth more points.

Now that 4L is worth the same as a 4Z I think we will be seeing more skaters attempt those.

A 3S is executed in the highest level of ladies with less frequency than a 3Z or 3F - does that mean it’s harder? No. It’s just that the skaters recognize that the 3F/3Z/3A is worth more so they go for that in order to get points which is the name of the game.

If a 3S were suddenly worth the same as a 3Z I’m sure way more 3S attempts would be seen.

Is a 4Z easier than a 4S because more ladies have landed the former? I would say no.

Yes, frequency can indicate the difficulty of something but it isn’t a be all and end all. And it can depend on the skater - see Mao having difficulty with her 3S compared to her 3L and 3F and arguably even her 3A.

 

[lzxnl]

As far as the argument that frequency of attempts by skaters as determining the difficulty of a jump is rather short-sighted. People train a harder jump like a 4Z because it’s worth more points.

Now that 4L is worth the same as a 4Z I think we will be seeing more skaters attempt those.

A 3S is executed in the highest level of ladies with less frequency than a 3Z or 3F - does that mean it’s harder? No. It’s just that the skaters recognize that the 3F/3Z/3A is worth more so they go for that in order to get points which is the name of the game.

If a 3S were suddenly worth the same as a 3Z I’m sure way more 3S attempts would be seen.

Is a 4Z easier than a 4S because more ladies have landed the former? I would say no.

Yes, frequency can indicate the difficulty of something but it isn’t a be all and end all. And it can depend on the skater - see Mao having difficulty with her 3S compared to her 3L and 3F and arguably even her 3A.

I would argue that because the 3S is performed more than 3Lz or 3F amongst the ladies overall, that suggests that it's easier; the first triples that skaters land tend not to be 3Lz or 3F, for good reason. There is a distinct lack of symmetry between triples and quads for women; 3S and 3T are sometimes the only triples performed in the short program by some women, yet the women jumping quads are almost invariably jumping 4Lz, almost immediately skipping the other few quads. While Anna later trained a 4F and was shown jumping 4Ts, and while Sasha jumps everything, the fact that many women went almost immediately to the 4Lz first suggests that the situation with quads is very different from the situation with triples.

If it were just for points, why would skaters try a 3S or 3T first? The point difference (previously) between a 3Lz and a 3T was (5.90 - 4.20) / 4.20 = 40%. The point difference between a 4Lz and a 4T was (11.5 - 9.5) / 9.5 = 21%. So, actually, if getting maximum points really were the biggest motivation, we should have seen many more 3Lz attempts than 3S or 3T amongst ALL women. For quads, because the base value difference is so much narrower, the jump type is less important than the GOE. For example, a 4T is worth as much as a 4Lz if the 4T has +2 GOE over the 4Lz. A 3T beats a 3Lz only if it has +4 GOE over the 3Lz. So, it is quite possible for an excellent 4T to beat an average 4Lz, but an excellent 3T can only beat a mediocre 3Lz.

My own opinion is that the 4Lz is easier to cheat than the other quads, and that women, who already have a tendency to cheat toe jumps, find the lutz easier to jump. Feel free to provide your own reasons as to why you believe this isn't the case.

 

[frida80]

Which source are you using?

Uno has definitely landed more than 3 clean quad loops. 6 according to this: https://skatingscores.com/unit/jpn_shoma_uno/

The poster is only looking at the seasons between 1998 and 2017.

 

[sheetz]

I do think there has been an element of prestige associated with landing a 4Lz, especially in Russia, where the men are often pressured to attempt harder jumps than they are capable of landing consistently. What else can explain Kolyada's continuing attempts at the jump despite his abysmally low success rate? Maybe if he had devoted his time to training 4Lo he might have been just as (un)successful.

 

[eterialskater]

I started from 1998 to the end of the 2017 season (not calendar year and includes WTT):

4Lo: 26 attempts. 12 successfully landed between two men: Hanyu (9!) and Uno (3). Attempts were made by Kevin Reynolds (2012 WTT FS), Gordei Gorshkov (2016 Nepela Trophy FS), Boyang Jin (2017 4CC FS), and Alexei Krasnozhon (first attempt was 2015 JGP Riga Cup).

4F: 34 attempts. 19 successfully landed between two men: Chen (12) and Uno (7). The only other 4F attempt was Daisuke Takahashi (2010 NHK FS and 2011 NHK FS.).

4Lz: 61 attempts. 25 successfully landed among Brandon Mroz, Boyang Jin, Nathan Chen, and Vincent Zhou. Other attempts were made by Michael Weiss (1998 Olympics FS), Evgeni Plushenko (2001 Cup of Russia), Adam Rippon, Vladislav Sesganov, Larry Louplover, Anton Shulepov, and Mikhail Kolyada.

The 4Lz is attempted a lot more than 4Lo and the 4F, but it’s also the one that skaters are failing at the most. More than 20 of the successful landings belong to Jin and Chen so hardly anyone else landed the jump after the first attempt in 1998.

This was fun and I’ve seen some fascinating protocols. I’ll do the last three years tomorrow and edit my post with the new numbers.

4LO>4F>4LZ in that order. There was really no need to inflate the 4 Lutz attempts that came before Mroz. Who really think those attempts where even serious? Among those 3 quads the Lutz is easier because it is a naturally stalk jump and the skater actually has time to glide before deciding when to jump. In the quad flip the skater must be able to generate speed from the 3 turn. Triple flips can be landed with little to no speed so a proper 3 turn is not needed. I see a a lot of skaters who have atrocious 3 turns before their flips. In quads it must be on point to successfully land them. I honestly think quad flips would be easier landed than quad lutz if it also uses the same glide entrance. Essentially doing a flutz. As for the quad loops they require impeccable timing and strong hips for them to be landed. I don't think anyone will be landing them consistently anytime soon. Everytime Hanyu lands them I say a little prayer for hips. That's how difficult it looks. I really think in the end it's how much rotational speed you are able to gain or preserve before vaulting into the jump and perfect timing.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

4LO>4F>4LZ in that order. There was really no need to inflate the 4 Lutz attempts that came before Mroz. Who really think those attempts where even serious? Among those 3 quads the Lutz is easier because it is a naturally stalk jump and the skater actually has time to glide before deciding when to jump. In the quad flip the skater must be able to generate speed from the 3 turn. Triple flips can be landed with little to no speed so a proper 3 turn is not needed. I see a a lot of skaters who have atrocious 3 turns before their flips. In quads it must be on point to successfully land them. I honestly think quad flips would be easier landed than quad lutz if it also uses the same glide entrance. Essentially doing a flutz. As for the quad loops they require impeccable timing and strong hips for them to be landed. I don't think anyone will be landing them consistently anytime soon. Everytime Hanyu lands them I say a little prayer for hips. That's how difficult it looks. I really think in the end it's how much rotational speed you are able to gain or preserve before vaulting into the jump and perfect timing.

Adam rippons attempts were serious. So was Plushenkos. So was Micheal Weiss. They were all very close.
And let's look at some of the quad "lutzes"
- dmitri aliev, half prerotation, blade assist.
- alexander samarin - half prerotation, blade assist, weak edge.
- stephen gogolev - weak edge, half prerotation.
- daniel Grassl - weak edge half prerotation, blade assist.
- larry loupolover - blade assist, half prerotation.

The real 4Lz:
hanyu (dodgy lean and less success than 4Lo).
Chen (less success than 4F, hard landing).
Boyang (natural lutz jumper, doesnt jump flip or loop quad).
Mikhail Kolyada (lander 3 4Lz out of how many?)
Keegan messing (1/5 landed?)

A proper quad lutz is very rare. Just like a proper quad flip. With a loop it's harder to cheat, hence why less "improper successes".
The new rule should in theory give the proper 4Lz more GOE. Will it? Probably not. But we'll see.

 

[LiamV426]

Might already have been said but can anyone explain why the point difference between a 3Lz/3F and a 3A is 2.70 while the difference between a 4Lz/4F/4Lo and a 4A is 1.50?

The lack of logic here.