Only one program and one competition day format for FS?

[GoneWithTheWind]

I’d actually prefer something that would make competitions longer, namely, bring back the compulsory dances

As a second choice, at the very least, we need a good stretch of pattern in the RD

After the lack-lustre reception the removal of the pattern seems to have received from both fans and skaters (I've only heard 2 dance teams out of all that were asked say they liked the pattern being removed), I really hope the ISU reintroduce it next season. In my view, the lack of pattern hasn't worked very well this season, but I can see it being even worse if they try to do a waltz theme without a pattern!

 

[Flying Feijoa]

After the lack-lustre reception the removal of the pattern seems to have received from both fans and skaters (I've only heard 2 dance teams out of all that were asked say they liked the pattern being removed), I really hope the ISU reintroduce it next season. In my view, the lack of pattern hasn't worked very well this season, but I can see it being even worse if they try to do a waltz theme without a pattern!

Out of curiosity which 2 teams were they?

And yeah, I just hope there will be enough complaints from important people (besides us) that they will reverse their decision

As for the original topic I prefer status quo (2 programmes) but wouldn't be averse to the suggestion of restoring the 2nd step sequence in the free programme for singles. More footwork is welcome.

 

[GoneWithTheWind]

Out of curiosity which 2 teams were they?

Chock/Bates and Fear/Gibson.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Chock/Bates and Fear/Gibson.

Somehow that doesn't surprise me...

 

[4everchan]

Unpopular opinion, I am perfectly fine with the no pattern key point ordeal... Piper and Paul did a masterful pattern dance step sequence... teams just need a bit more time to play with it...

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Why not?

I mean, from fans' point it's clear and understandable: the more figure skating, the better. But how about the sports insiders? Wouldn't it make the life simpler for you?

Sports insiders? You mean skaters who are now pro?

I love the sport the way it is. Leave it.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

I’d actually prefer something that would make competitions longer, namely, bring back the compulsory dances

I miss CD as well as figures.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Unpopular opinion, I am perfectly fine with the no pattern key point ordeal... Piper and Paul did a masterful pattern dance step sequence... teams just need a bit more time to play with it...

The way that element is specified, anything goes - people will interpret it in a way that plays to their strengths. Why add technically difficult choreo when you aren't getting rewarded for it?
There is plenty of room in the free dance for entertaining choreo elements - ice dance needs more step-based technical content otherwise its legitimacy as a sport is weakened...

 

[4everchan]

The way that element is specified, anything goes - people will interpret it in a way that plays to their strengths. Why add technically difficult choreo when you aren't getting rewarded for it?
There is plenty of room in the free dance for entertaining choreo elements - ice dance needs more step-based technical content otherwise its legitimacy as a sport is weakened...

perhaps but we have not seen tons of level 4s so far....

 

[Anna K.]

Sports insiders? You mean skaters who are now pro?

Nah, I actually meant young skaters/part time skaters and their teams (sorry, you mentioned you were in sports but you didn't specify where exactly in sports), the category for whom sports is mainly spending and not really earning. If you can earn money then this is also "the more skating the better", right?

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Nah, I actually meant young skaters/part time skaters and their teams (sorry, you mentioned you were in sports but you didn't specify where exactly in sports), the category for whom sports is mainly spending and not really earning. If you can earn money then this is also "the more skating the better", right?

A pro spends and sometimes doesn't earn what is needed. This isn't 1995 when there was 15 options per weekend for pro skating shows on tv. Also, most of us also coach/choreograph and have to fork out money to get to these places to do choreo, help a skater with tech, accompany them to competitions anywhere in the world that they happen to be, stay there, eat, and so on.

 

[Anna K.]

A pro spends and sometimes doesn't earn what is needed. This isn't 1995 when there was 15 options per weekend for pro skating shows on tv. Also, most of us also coach/choreograph and have to fork out money to get to these places to do choreo, help a skater with tech, accompany them to competitions anywhere in the world that they happen to be, stay there, eat, and so on.

I see. So I'm guessing the love for sport as it is helps you to get over hardship

 

[moonvine]

Terrible idea. Bring back figures instead. Make it 3 days.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

perhaps but we have not seen tons of level 4s so far....

Not to go off topic, but remember the level is based on number of clean turns executed, not on the choreo.

The main issue is, patterns are the biggest comparative point in dance. There is no hiding - you have to do correct steps, edges, turns, holds, leg placement - and from there you can easily separate the strongest skaters from weakest based on edge depth, speed, flow etc. They can't just choose their best steps, movements and holds, they have to learn the mandatory ones. And also they can do easier timing, even mess up the timing & pattern and still get +'v GOE as the judges don't know what it's meant to look like.
For me it's not about what makes ice dance look good, it's about what makes ice dance a sport.

 

[4everchan]

Not to go off topic, but remember the level is based on number of clean turns executed, not on the choreo.

The main issue is, patterns are the biggest comparative point in dance. There is no hiding - you have to do correct steps, edges, turns, holds, leg placement - and from there you can easily separate the strongest skaters from weakest based on edge depth, speed, flow etc. They can't just choose their best steps, movements and holds, they have to learn the mandatory ones. And also they can do easier timing, even mess up the timing & pattern and still get +'v GOE as the judges don't know what it's meant to look like.
For me it's not about what makes ice dance look good, it's about what makes ice dance a sport.

Yes, I do understand that they need to execute those clean turns, but that's the point I am making too... why are they not getting them? Wouldn't that mean that it is actually demanding? I did like the patterns because since I am not a skater, after a while, I would still start to recognize some of the steps and turns of the patterns (and would also look at tutorials etc)... so the new dance patttern step thingie for me is impossible to evaluate.. BUT, when it's beautifully choreographed ( I liked Piper and Paul's so far the best this season) it's simply amazing to watch as it feels integrated to the dance...

But as we know, the ISU likes to try things out, and then they keep whatever they like and ditch other things... so I wouldn't be surprised if after a couple seasons the pattern and keypoints came back just in time for the Olympics.

 

[Anna K.]

Since I suggested in the initial post that switching to one program could possibly happen as a result of gradual loss of difference between both programs, I find that all posts about differences that exist and/or should exist are perfectly on topic.

Just saying

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Yes, I do understand that they need to execute those clean turns, but that's the point I am making too... why are they not getting them? Wouldn't that mean that it is actually demanding? I did like the patterns because since I am not a skater, after a while, I would still start to recognize some of the steps and turns of the patterns (and would also look at tutorials etc)... so the new dance patttern step thingie for me is impossible to evaluate.. BUT, when it's beautifully choreographed ( I liked Piper and Paul's so far the best this season) it's simply amazing to watch as it feels integrated to the dance...

But as we know, the ISU likes to try things out, and then they keep whatever they like and ditch other things... so I wouldn't be surprised if after a couple seasons the pattern and keypoints came back just in time for the Olympics.

It's difficult (depending on turns you chose). Ice dance turns are under so much scrutiny compared to free skater turns. But in pattern dances, you have to also do the correct turns/steps under the same level of scrutiny - plus scrutiny over the timing. In addition, you can't chose the steps/turns you find easier. and precise timing/leg positions/arm positions affect the Pattern Dance GOE heavily, even if they get the key points (whereas here you can do what you like with connecting steps).

I'm honestly shocked that everybody isn't getting level 4 (although some are including brackets in them which almost always don't get counted - hence why lvl 4 stsq/ofst are ever called). It's probably due to increasing difficulty of choreography for GOE

So to get lvl 4 Pattern step you just need 2 turns each - so forward outside mohawk and back outside choktaw., forward outside rocker, and forward inside counter (split between man and women), would probably be easiest turns to satisfy this requirement). Given that you can lean on your partner for the counter, it's actually a pretty easy step/turn requirement. of course the senior choreo is difficult, but honestly not more difficult than pattern dances (where correct ISU mandated timing etc is critical). Also the ability to chose type of step, closed/open, free legs etc helps a lot.

I want to point out, for me it's not about whether it looks good or not to me (some do, some don't), it's about having something to objectively compare skating skills, timing etc across multiple couples - the pattern dances were perfect for this. Right now, with good choreography and clever turn/step choice and clever music choice, it's easy to hide weak skating skills whereas before this was impossible. With the same PD, speed, edge depth, confidence in steps etc is easy to differentiate. Now it's not, as everybody is doing something different.

 

[4everchan]

It's difficult (depending on turns you chose). Ice dance turns are under so much scrutiny compared to free skater turns. But in pattern dances, you have to also do the correct turns/steps under the same level of scrutiny - plus scrutiny over the timing. In addition, you can't chose the steps/turns you find easier. and precise timing/leg positions/arm positions affect the Pattern Dance GOE heavily, even if they get the key points (whereas here you can do what you like with connecting steps).

I'm honestly shocked that everybody isn't getting level 4 (although some are including brackets in them which almost always don't get counted - hence why lvl 4 stsq/ofst are ever called). It's probably due to increasing difficulty of choreography for GOE

So to get lvl 4 Pattern step you just need 2 turns each - so forward outside mohawk and back outside choktaw., forward outside rocker, and forward inside counter (split between man and women), would probably be easiest turns to satisfy this requirement). Given that you can lean on your partner for the counter, it's actually a pretty easy step/turn requirement. of course the senior choreo is difficult, but honestly not more difficult than pattern dances (where correct ISU mandated timing etc is critical). Also the ability to chose type of step, closed/open, free legs etc helps a lot.

I want to point out, for me it's not about whether it looks good or not to me (some do, some don't), it's about having something to objectively compare skating skills, timing etc across multiple couples - the pattern dances were perfect for this. Right now, with good choreography and clever turn/step choice and clever music choice, it's easy to hide weak skating skills whereas before this was impossible. With the same PD, speed, edge depth, confidence in steps etc is easy to differentiate. Now it's not, as everybody is doing something different.

thanks for all this... i know the argument in favour of bringing the keypoints back... and i am not against it I just liked a couple of the pattern dance step this year so am hopeful that teams could master this feature in the future... looking good IS important for the ISU.. because actually, in this same forum, last year, people would be like " here we go again with this pattern"... seeing all the teams do the same thing is obviously interesting for those who have the eyes to evaluate the slight differences between them, but for the common mortal, it's just repetitive and boring.. I think that's why the ISU ditched it... I mean, the same way they felt they needed to ditch the compulsory dance.

 

[noskates]

If you ever had to sit through 20+ dance teams doing the compulsory dance - some to the same music over and over - you might rethink that part of the competition. I like things the way they are. I just don't see any viable reason to change them. While some may not like the short programs, a skater has to be really "on" to complete that program without error. It's a good thing! They can't make up lost points with choreography or additional jumps or spins. Cream rises to the top!

 

[kolyadafan2002]

If you ever had to sit through 20+ dance teams doing the compulsory dance - some to the same music over and over - you might rethink that part of the competition. I like things the way they are. I just don't see any viable reason to change them. While some may not like the short programs, a skater has to be really "on" to complete that program without error. It's a good thing! They can't make up lost points with choreography or additional jumps or spins. Cream rises to the top!

To be honest, for me Rhythm Dances (as they were with the PD) were a good in-between. technical step content, but engaging and had a nice performance aspect for the audience. The pattern step is just an easier step sequence with a little more choreo input, albeit somewhat nice and interesting.

On the original topic, one way I can see improvement in Free programs is to increase the program length by maybe 30seconds. Right now, it's a huge rush to fit in the technical content, and extra time can improve performance aspects. Maybe also add another step sequence/choreo element again to balance out that aspect.