Only one program and one competition day format for FS?

[4everchan]

While some may not like the short programs, a skater has to be really "on" to complete that program without error. It's a good thing! They can't make up lost points with choreography or additional jumps or spins. Cream rises to the top!

What additional spin? same 3... what additional jumps? All skaters have the same number of jumping passes.... So yes... in the short... a pop is costly... but in the LP it is just as costly...

Let's say "I" pop my axel in the short.. I lose 8 points and goe...
I pop it in the LP... I lose 8 points and goe...

the only difference really in the LP is that way... I was planning to do a 3loop... but instead I will retry my axel...
1) it's risky...
2) I am not recovering entirely my lost points... I would recover 8 points minus the base value of the loop... 4.9 so there... so instead of losing a full eight points, I am still losing the value of an element

So in a sense, the definite nature of the SP might even be easier for some skaters because, you cannot touch the axel... and then you gotta have your combo... that's the only thing that could be reorganized and there is no math involved.

In the LP... some skaters struggle reorganizing things around (as a matter of fact, some even decide not to do so ahead of time as it messes them up completely) ... so I would say they have to be even more aware and on... but i guess it depends how one sees things...

In the end, to me they are pretty much identical in nature.

@kolyadafan2002
For the argument about giving them more time to do things... they need more time because they take more time putting in the big quads in the beginning of the programs... how many skaters do skate skate skate to the end of the ice + jump X 3 ? So many programs are designed that way now.... As a matter of fact, this is exactly what Patrick Chan was complaining about... two quads, he could manage..but adding the third one meant that the program was suffering... too much time spent setting up for quads... not enough time on actual intricate choreography.

I am fine with the current length but I would remove stuff... they did it in pairs.... dividing the spins... and step vs choreo.
The only thing I would add back is the second step sequence, or at least make two choreo seq (on top of the step seq)... one with moves (ina bauer, spiral, etc) and one that is "characteristic or rhytmic steps" a bit like in ice dance... If there is not enough time for this, I am fine removing a jumping pass

Seriously, I think things are relatively fine the way they are but if some are looking for having 2 programs that are a bit more contrasted, I would be fine with it too...

Now, it looks to me like we have a 200 IM in the short program and a 400 IM in the long program.... (I was a swimmer so forgive me the analogy)... Both programs feature the exact same thing... but one requires more endurance and stamina... the other, a bit more sprinting as there is less time to set things up.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

I want to point out, for me it's not about whether it looks good or not to me (some do, some don't), it's about having something to objectively compare skating skills, timing etc across multiple couples - the pattern dances were perfect for this. Right now, with good choreography and clever turn/step choice and clever music choice, it's easy to hide weak skating skills whereas before this was impossible. With the same PD, speed, edge depth, confidence in steps etc is easy to differentiate. Now it's not, as everybody is doing something different.

This!
I think timing in particular tends to be simpler with these self-choreographed patterns compared to the compulsories (e.g. the Rhumba widesteps, or the Viennese progressives).

 

[Anna K.]

Now, it looks to me like we have a 200 IM in the short program and a 400 IM in the long program.... (I was a swimmer so forgive me the analogy)... Both programs feature the exact same thing... but one requires more endurance and stamina... the other, a bit more sprinting as there is less time to set things up.

The free skate has +1.20 min of time and +4 more elements (more than double jumping passes) compared to the short program. Are you sure that it makes less time to set things up in the short program?

Just nitpicking

 

[4everchan]

The free skate has +1.20 min of time and +4 more elements (more than double jumping passes) compared to the short program. Are you sure that it makes less time to set things up in the short program?

Just nitpicking

the extra jumping passes are often bunched up in the second half... so they get 1:20 minutes to do that and a choreo sequence... to me it's pretty much the same but requires the stamina for those last jumping passes... just a few years ago, when backloading it all was allowed... you would even see ALL jumping passes in the second half which requires even more endurance and stamina... but was possible.

 

[WednesdayMarch]

Just wondering how many of you actually skate...? (I know you do, @Ic3Rabbit and @kolyadafan2002!)

This is absolutely NOT me casting aspersions, just it seems to me that the people I know who skate to a high standard all seem to be on the same page with this.

 

[4everchan]

Just wondering how many of you actually skate...? (I know you do, @Ic3Rabbit and @kolyadafan2002!)

I already stated loud and clear that I don't but I am not on the ISU so, I guess it's not dangerous for people like me who don't skate to give an opinion I believe the thread was open to stir up some discussion anyways... and for a change of format, fans, even those who don't skate, will certainly have a lot to say...

 

[ladyjane]

I skate at the recreational level but even so I tend to be on this page....

 

[4everchan]

Just wondering how many of you actually skate...? (I know you do, @Ic3Rabbit and @kolyadafan2002!)

This is absolutely NOT me casting aspersions, just it seems to me that the people I know who skate to a high standard all seem to be on the same page with this.

Well... from reading the thread, pretty much everyone wants more skating not less.. so it's not just the skaters... Actually, some even want to bring back figures and Compulsory dances

 

[Anna K.]

Just wondering how many of you actually skate...?

I don't.

So, my is the viewer's perspective.
As a viewer, I definitely don't like the individual Free Skate the way it is now. (Please, explain to me what's free in that running from jump to jump anyway?) There are skaters who can do it in a classy and aesthetically pleasing way but still... It's a sad sight to see a good spinner barely accomplishing mandatory four rotations out of tiredness at the end of the program. You can tell me how many times you want that this is sport and they are supposed to jump their little hearts out but you know what... I still don't like it
So, yes, I would welcome a format change. Tweak that Free Skate or drop it altogether. I won't cry for it.

 

[el henry]

I don't.

So, my is the viewer's perspective.
As a viewer, I definitely don't like the individual Free Skate the way it is now. (Please, explain to me what's free in that running from jump to jump anyway?) There are skaters who can do it in a classy and aesthetically pleasing way but still... It's a sad sight to see a good spinner barely accomplishing mandatory four rotations out of tiredness at the end of the program. You can tell me how many times you want that this is sport and they are supposed to jump their little hearts out but you know what... I still don't like it
So, yes, I would welcome a format change. Tweak that Free Skate or drop it altogether. I won't cry for it.

I quite agree about tweaking it. The original concept of the FS was not jump a dee jump jump, throw in a few other elements, jump a dee jump, but to highlight all of those other elements.

How do we get back there? Don't know.

But since the SP appears to be the best showcase of "other elements" now, I would be loathe to lose it.

 

[yesterday]

On the original topic, one way I can see improvement in Free programs is to increase the program length by maybe 30seconds. Right now, it's a huge rush to fit in the technical content, and extra time can improve performance aspects. Maybe also add another step sequence/choreo element again to balance out that aspect.

Wasn't there a time change some cycles ago? They did shorten one or both program, I'm not sure which one. Or I'm totally wrong here.
And there has been this additional StSq.

Like, we've been there before so we could easily go back, right?

But anyway, one wonders what the "real" reasons are each time there's a change to an aspect of FS (only talking about 2002+). Did they really weigh in all arguments and options or just "change to change something".

 

[gkelly]

I quite agree about tweaking it. The original concept of the FS was not jump a dee jump jump, throw in a few other elements, jump a dee jump, but to highlight all of those other elements.

Well, the original concept of the free skate, back in the 1890s, was to break free of the strict figure eights of the school figures by combining edges and turns and steps in original patterns, highlighted but other moves such as basic spins, simple jumps/hops, spread eagles, and whatever else the skaters could come up with, at speed and using a much larger span of ice.

Over time the technical content developed, music was added, pair skating and later ice dancing became standard disciplines, short programs were added, school figures were eventually eliminated from singles competition, requirements for various competition phases evolved and changed over the years, etc., etc.

How do we get back there? Don't know.

Back where? To the sport as it was in the 1890s? Or 1970s or 1990s or when?

If there were to be only a single phase of competition, it would undoubtedly be similar in length to today's free programs. But should there be lots of requirements and restrictions to maintain an even playing field? Or should the program be completely free, with the rules just "You've got four minutes. Go out there and do whatever you want and the judges will sort it out somehow?"

Right now the "free" program is very structured, so maybe it needs a different name.


If there are to be two programs but we want them to be more distinct from each other while maintaining the IJS approach to scoring, I figure there are several different possible approaches.

E.g.:

*Short technical program with a focus on technical elements, with very specific technical requirements that may rotate from year to year -- those requirements might focus on everyone doing the same basic moves without major variations, so the elements might not earn levels but just GOEs
*Long well-balanced free skate similar to what we have now, perhaps a bit freer than now with more flexibility as to how many of each element type to include up to the maximum number of total elements, and more options for different kinds of leveled elements to choose from

OR

*Technical program in which the aim is to include the maximum difficulty possible, with strict requirements about how many of each element type must be included. No restrictions on jump revolutions, and all other elements leveled. Depending on length/number of elements it might be more like the current SP or the current well-balanced program.
*Long free skate with emphasis on freedom. No leveled elements so skaters can be evaluated on quality and creativity of non-jump elements, and there would also be rewards for emphasizing quality and creativity in jump execution and other kinds of jump difficulty other than number of revolutions in the air.

OR

*Long technical program in which the aim is to include the maximum difficulty possible, with strict requirements about how many of each element type must be included. No restrictions on jump revolutions, and all other elements leveled. Similar to current well-balanced long program.
*Artistic program (3 1/2 minutes?) in which PCS and GOEs make up most of the scoring, fewer total elements so there's more focus on the in-between creative skating, all non-jump elements are "choreo" rather than leveled elements, and either few/limited high-revolution jumps permitted if the Scale of Values applies, or else all jumps are also "choreo" only with low base values regardless of takeoff or number revolutions and GOEs applied based on quality and how they fit into the choreography of the program as a whole. Quad jumpers might have a large lead from the tech program, and they could win some excitement points with a successful quad or two in the artistic program, but they'd need to actually focus on artistry and overall quality to maintain that lead.


Ice dance would be a separate discussion.

 

[moonvine]

If you ever had to sit through 20+ dance teams doing the compulsory dance - some to the same music over and over - you might rethink that part of the competition. I like things the way they are. I just don't see any viable reason to change them. While some may not like the short programs, a skater has to be really "on" to complete that program without error. It's a good thing! They can't make up lost points with choreography or additional jumps or spins. Cream rises to the top!

I loved the compulsory dance. It was really a good way to compare the teams directly against each other.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

I’d actually prefer something that would make competitions longer, namely, bring back the compulsory dances

I'm the same. I want to make events longer too. Have 3 segments in the Ice Dance. Have more categories. Have more participants. Have longer programmes.

The problem is that most sports are trying to make everything SHORTER, because kids today don't have the same attention spans, and are losing interest quicker. Or, worse, not getting interested in the first place.

Oh, and because making the events shorter means it costs less to hold them.

I miss CD as well as figures.

I'm too young to remember figures.

From videos I have seen, I wouldn't want the competitions to return. Being blunt, it's not a spectator sport. BUT, I do strongly believe that they should be taught to young skaters. Because they provide a strong foundation onto which the skater can build their skills.

If you ever had to sit through 20+ dance teams doing the compulsory dance - some to the same music over and over - you might rethink that part of the competition. I like things the way they are. I just don't see any viable reason to change them. While some may not like the short programs, a skater has to be really "on" to complete that program without error. It's a good thing! They can't make up lost points with choreography or additional jumps or spins. Cream rises to the top!

I loved the compulsory dance. It was really a good way to compare the teams directly against each other.

I was delighted when the Compulsory Dance was scrapped. I found it boring seeing the same programme being done to one of the same two pieces of music over and over and over again.

HOWEVER, I was young and foolish then.

Now I am older, and I can appreciate more that the Compulsory Dance is the only way to directly compare one partnership to another.

The thing that made me change my mind was when I started watching Novice level Ice Dance 3 or 4 years ago. They do two separate Pattern Dance programmes along with their Free Dance. And although in each PD segment all the partnerships are are doing the same programme, there is such a big variety of music being used. It is rare to hear the same music being used more than twice in a segment. And as a result, I am finding that I am not getting bored. Rather, I am actually enjoying it.

It just goes to prove that the problem with the Compulsory Dance was not the concept. The problem was the lack of imagination from the choreographers.

So, I am now all for going back to the 3 segment format of having a Compulsory Dance, an Original Dance, and a Free Dance.

But the choreographers need to be told to be more imaginative in choosing the music. Make an effort to go for something different, instead of being lazy and going with the obvious same old, same old.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[Anna K.]

Well, the original concept of the free skate, back in the 1890s, was to break free of the strict figure eights of the school figures by combining edges and turns and steps in original patterns, highlighted but other moves such as basic spins, simple jumps/hops, spread eagles, and whatever else the skaters could come up with, at speed and using a much larger span of ice.

Over time the technical content developed, music was added, pair skating and later ice dancing became standard disciplines, short programs were added, school figures were eventually eliminated from singles competition, requirements for various competition phases evolved and changed over the years, etc., etc.


Back where? To the sport as it was in the 1890s? Or 1970s or 1990s or when?

If there were to be only a single phase of competition, it would undoubtedly be similar in length to today's free programs. But should there be lots of requirements and restrictions to maintain an even playing field? Or should the program be completely free, with the rules just "You've got four minutes. Go out there and do whatever you want and the judges will sort it out somehow?"

Right now the "free" program is very structured, so maybe it needs a different name.


If there are to be two programs but we want them to be more distinct from each other while maintaining the IJS approach to scoring, I figure there are several different possible approaches.

E.g.:

*Short technical program with a focus on technical elements, with very specific technical requirements that may rotate from year to year -- those requirements might focus on everyone doing the same basic moves without major variations, so the elements might not earn levels but just GOEs
*Long well-balanced free skate similar to what we have now, perhaps a bit freer than now with more flexibility as to how many of each element type to include up to the maximum number of total elements, and more options for different kinds of leveled elements to choose from

OR

*Technical program in which the aim is to include the maximum difficulty possible, with strict requirements about how many of each element type must be included. No restrictions on jump revolutions, and all other elements leveled. Depending on length/number of elements it might be more like the current SP or the current well-balanced program.
*Long free skate with emphasis on freedom. No leveled elements so skaters can be evaluated on quality and creativity of non-jump elements, and there would also be rewards for emphasizing quality and creativity in jump execution and other kinds of jump difficulty other than number of revolutions in the air.

OR
*Long technical program in which the aim is to include the maximum difficulty possible, with strict requirements about how many of each element type must be included. No restrictions on jump revolutions, and all other elements leveled. Depending on length/number of elements it might be more like the current SP or the current well-balanced program.
*Artistic program (3 1/2 minutes?) in which PCS and GOEs make up most of the scoring, fewer total elements so there's more focus on the in-between creative skating, all non-jump elements are "choreo" rather than leveled elements, and either few/limited high-revolution jumps permitted if the Scale of Values applies, or else all jumps are also "choreo" only with low base values regardless of takeoff or number revolutions and GOEs applied based on quality and how they fit into the choreography of the program as a whole. Quad jumpers might have a large lead from the tech program, and they could win some excitement points with a successful quad or two in the artistic program, but they'd need to actually focus on artistry and overall quality to maintain that lead.


Ice dance would be a separate discussion.

OR
based on the realities of today,
bin the individual Free Skate because nothing is free anyway under JIS. Have two SPs instead. Increase the length of SP to 3.30 minutes. Add 2 more jump segments and 1 more step/choreo sequence to each. Apply Zayak rule to both programs combined; so, a skater can skate same program also the second day only changing the jump content. But there should be risen PCS in second program if the skater "shows versatility", i.e. skates the second program to different music and choreo.
And increase the point value/difficulty of choreo sequence if it uses split jumps and other athletic elements. So step sequence would focus on steps and choreo sequence on other stuff.

This was the viewer perspective

 

[WednesdayMarch]

I already stated loud and clear that I don't but I am not on the ISU so, I guess it's not dangerous for people like me who don't skate to give an opinion I believe the thread was open to stir up some discussion anyways... and for a change of format, fans, even those who don't skate, will certainly have a lot to say...

I just find it interesting to note the opinions (the more the merrier) and feelings of those who actually do or have done the stuff in question and those who have the viewer's perspective. As a skater (albeit now an old and fairly crippled one), the idea of increasing the length of the Free program makes me want to cry. I am also no fan of the weight given to jumping these days. And, obviously, I'm happy to watch 20+ couples skating compulsory/pattern dances. Any day.

 

[Anna K.]

I just find it interesting to note the opinions (the more the merrier) and feelings of those who actually do or have done the stuff in question and those who have the viewer's perspective. As a skater (albeit now an old and fairly crippled one), the idea of increasing the length of the Free program makes me want to cry. I am also no fan of the weight given to jumping these days. And, obviously, I'm happy to watch 20+ couples skating compulsory/pattern dances. Any day.

You know, I believe that there is a point at which both perspectives meet. Like, happy skaters on ice make happy viewers

Anyway, all real decisions will be made by those who skate. This thread is just about opinions, like you said... the more the merrier

 

[el henry]

Oh dear God, for me watching the CDs was like watching paint dry. Maybe it was different if you were actually skating them, but by the tenth one, the same tune, the same steps, over and over and over. No, just no.

I am all for measuring preciseness and blade work and edges and all those wonderful qualities that make skating skating. But just say no to CDs.

 

[NanaPat]

Oh dear God, for me watching the CDs was like watching paint dry. Maybe it was different if you were actually skating them, but by the tenth one, the same tune, the same steps, over and over and over. No, just no.

I am all for measuring preciseness and blade work and edges and all those wonderful qualities that make skating skating. But just say no to CDs.

One of my objections to CDs was that the music didn't actually end when the skater finished, or in a pleasing way. Cutting off the music mid-phrase or even mid-bar was not esthetically pleasing at all.

 

[WednesdayMarch]

One of my objections to CDs was that the music didn't actually end when the skater finished, or in a pleasing way. Cutting off the music mid-phrase or even mid-bar was not esthetically pleasing at all.

Even as a lover of CDs, I am totally with you there!