Opinion: The brevity of skating careers

[Mathman]

Also, storytelling and the character is the primary vehicle for engagement.

My experience as a spectator has been exactly the opposite. I ofetn wish the skater would would drop the costumed role-playing and just skate.

My favorite "story" for a figure skating performance remains Michelle Kwan's (and choreogrpher Lori Nichol's) conception for Lyra Angelica. The story line is "Michelle Kwan skating." Interestingly, Nichol did not choreograoh a closing pose for the program. Her instruction to Michelle was "Wing It."

Did this theme go along with the structure of the music? Absoluelty, Nichol chose the music (and had to talk Michelle into going along with it) because it was her favorite work -- "the music she wanted to hear the angels playing when she walked through the pearly gates."

 

[Magill]

... found flaws with every skater that bested him, hounding them on social media and outright inventing their flaws and faults. That animosity got attached to them for their entire careers. It was terrible..

Talking about toxicity, I see it done here towards Yuzuru, not just his fans, but him personally, quite often in this forum, in your recent posts, too. Rarely gets called out or responded to.
I saw it done in mega tonnes, on the daily basis, towards Zhenya Medvedeva, by fans of other Russian skaters, here in this forum, in the infamous Russian Ladies Thread. I do not recall you responding. From what I heard, it was done all over the social media, especially Russian-speaking ones. You are a Russian speaker, you should know better than me.
Then I saw it done in mega tonnes in RTL, in GS, towards Sasha Trusova and Alena Kostornaya, when they left Eteri for Plushenko. It was so bad that I actually registered in this forum to reply to this. Because not many people did.
Yes, toxicity towards selected skaters seems to be well tolerated, indeed.
Both Zhenya and Yuzuru were receiving death wishes from fans of other skaters. With Yuzuru, this harassing involved even members of his family. It got down to death threats and got serious enough for his sponsors to employ protection guards for him. Just why do you think he never had social media when still competing?
I never ever saw these skaters called out because of it.
Not that they should be. But their fans - yes. Yet nobody ever mentions it while they are so eager to protest much milder misbehaviours when on the part of Yuzuru fandom. And they sort of hold him responsible while do not expect this kind of responsibility from any other skater. And they use it, just like you do, to justify their own toxicity.
Everyone else, all the other fans and fandoms, are all so civilised? No, they are not.
You know what it is called, don't you? It is called hypocrisy.

 

[lariko]

I saw it done in mega tonnes, on the daily basis, towards Zhenya Medvedeva, by fans of other Russian skaters, here in this forum, in the infamous Russian Ladies Thread. I do not recall you responding. From what I heard, it was done all over the social media, especially Russian-speaking ones. You are a Russian speaker, you should know better than me.

I avoid Russian woman thread because I absolutely cannot stand the vitriol there toward Medvedeva or anyone. Same reason I don't read Russian commentary, save for new era of Grishin-Tran'kov and Co. My one objections to Russian women is Valieva's continuing participation in competition and one woman coach over there allowed within 10 feet of children.

 

[Mathman]

Hanyu's influence on sport that I saw was quite toxic because of idolization.

I think you are way too hard-edged on this topic. Of course fans are fanatical -- that is what "fan" means. Where would figure skating, or any sport or entertainment be, without dedicated fans. Where would Taylor Swift be.

I wish every skater had as loyal a following as Hanyu does. Figure skating would surely benefit in every way.

 

[Magill]

I avoid Russian woman thread because I absolutely cannot stand the vitriol there toward Medvedeva or anyone. Same reason I don't read Russian commentary,

But you were there then. I remember you.

 

[lariko]

I think you are way too hard-edged on this topic. Of course fans are fanatical -- that is what "fan" means. Where would figure skating, or any sport or entertainment be, without dedicated fans. Where would Taylor Swift be.

I wish every skater had as loyal a following as Hanyu does. Figure skating would surely benefit in every way.

Yes, I really, really don't like it. The very first event I had attended life was Skate Canada in Kelowna. Hanyu was great, we loved his skating. But after he left the ice, there was Rizzo there, standing in the middle of the rink, not being able to move, not even warm up, because of the Poohs. And Hanyu's fans kept screaming even after Rizzo started to skate. And they all came and left with Hanyu.

Medvedeva was there too, btw, but having troubles, unfortunately.

Since then, I attended more live competitions, all of them without Hanyu, and it never went anywhere near anything like that. People cheered, people tossed a few toys, then sat down and watched the next performance. Perfect. Well, save for that insipid woman in Las Vegas once...but she left in a huff really fast. Nevermind her.

I don't wish another skater to ever have the same following and idolization. It's just not right and it's detrimental to the sport as a whole.

 

[lariko]

But you were there then. I remember you.

Didn't get the lay of the land yet.

 

[Magill]

Didn't get the lay of the land yet.

But I do not recall you holding Russian skaters responsible for that vitriol and calling on them to withdraw from the sport to make the world and social media a better and more healthy place. Why not? Why not give the same treatment to everyone?

 

[lariko]

But I do not recall you holding Russian skaters responsible for that vitriol and calling on them to withdraw from the sport to make the world and social media a better and more healthy place. Why not? Why not give the same treatment to everyone?

Actually, I did and quite vocally in Valieva's case. Like, actually, yesterday and today.

Not a single other skater save for Hanyu had the same stranglehold and such a destructive and prolonged impact on competition. With Hanyu I faced it first-hand. I saw Trusova compete twice, and it was nothing like that. Saw Chen. Saw Malinin... all was fine. And, well, Medvedeva, Trusova, they both retired when they couldn't keep up.

 

[Magill]

Actually, I did and quite vocally in Valieva's case. Like, actually, yesterday and today.

Not a single other skater save for Hanyu had the same stranglehold and such a destructive and prolonged impact on competition. With Hanyu I faced it first-hand. I saw Trusova compete twice, and it was nothing like that. Saw Chen. Saw Malinin... all was all fine. And, well, Medvedeva, Trusova, they both retired when they couldn't keep up.

There is this story. When Yuzuru performed in Sochi OG, he was performing against Plushenko, first in the team competition. Russian audience, and there were plenty of them, of course, as it was in Russia, saw him as a threat. When he came out on the ice, they were shouting "Russia, Russia" and some derogatory words to distract him and make him fall. In Russian, so luckily he did not understand.
Later he was told what it really meant so, he said, he came out on the ice prepared mentally they would boo him. But Plushenko withdrew earlier and those most fanatical Russian fans left the venue leaving empty rows, and they were not there when he skated which, he said, was better for him.
I wonder, why this behaviour does not get mentioned so often when talking about toxic fans?
When Yuzuru first won Japanese Nationals, Dai fans booed him. Booed him. That was awful.
Dai was smiling triumphantly.
You can see the footage for yourself.
I wonder why it does not get mentioned so much when talking about Dai?
And protesting in Valieva case does not count here. It is a completely different matter indeed.

 

[lariko]

There is this story. When Yuzuru performed in Sochi OG, he was performing against Plushenko, first in the team competition. Russian audience, and they were plenty of them, of course, as it was in Russia, saw him as a threat. When he came out on the ice, they were shouting "Russia, Russia" and some derogatory words to distract him and make him fall. In Russian, so he did not understand "
Later he was told what it really meant so, he said, he came out on the ice prepared mentally they would boo him. But Plushenko withdrew earlier and those most fanatical Russian fans left the benue leaving empty rows, and they were not there when he skated which, he said, was better for him.
I wonder, why this behaviour does not get mentioned so often when talking about toxic fans?

This is absolutely an unacceptable behavior. I wasn't on the stadium in Sochi that day. I was in Kelowna in 2019. For me, Hanyu's fans are an example of idolization that should be avoided and I experienced it first hand. It's dangerous.

And from what I heard of it, Plushenko's choice over Kovtun was not kosher and also represents a fine example of why artificial longevity resulting from idolizing certain skaters is detrimental to the sport. Kovtun's message upon his retirement (the boy who didn't go to the Olympics touched the cord with me). I love Plushenko as a coach btw and admire his pig-headed defense of his students and taking in Angelopol when the kid was supposed to be ostracized.

 

[TallyT]

Call it what you want, but scores are fudged big time.

Yes, and your favourites have benefited as much as anyone. I'm all for honest, clean judging as much as anyone but apply it to everyone.

And, lol, Hanyu stagnated the entire Japanese skating. They are eating up the results of Hanyu idolization at the expense of sport right now. Not his fault, obviously. He is a talented guy. But if he didn't drag his feet for the shot at 3rd Olympics he didn't need and started his show career earlier, he would have been happier for that, and so would have been the sport in Japan and around the world. And even his fans, lol.

Let me get this straight, you want to hijack this entire thread simply to bash the one skater who is irrelevant to the OP's question because he has the infernal hide to have been better, have more achievements and far more love and admiration from his fans and the public than your chosen one - the infernal hide to be unique. Magill has tackled the subject of toxicity but let me add that Takahashi's fans were the ones who brought in the real ugliness as JNats 2013 proved. (They also threw white cloths, which Japanese have confirmed is a symbol of wishing death on someone). Should Takahashi have left earlier so that his toxic influence wasn't there? If the Japanese men felt 'stifled' the solution was in their hands, as it was in Yuzuru's after that scarring JNats. Be better, be more exciting, be greater skaters and bigger stars.

Oh, and the 'youthful, exciting' Russian girls brought and still bring toxicity and vicious partisanship. especially in their own country, that eclipses anything else. In the US, Alysa was pretty much driven out at a very young age by it there. So why the hell is 'toxicity' being discussed in a thread about longevity, except to push your own bash agenda?

Mods, can you clean up this thread? Someone seems to be using it for a personal vendetta.

 

[lariko]

And, to finish this thought: I didn't like artificial extension of either Hanyu's or Plushenko's careers, or their idolization that brought on toxicity and overshadowed other skaters. I fully support and admire what they did when they finally finished their competitive careers (coaching and shows) and I think it would have been better for everyone and the sport if both of them retired earlier, instead of lonegvity

 

[Magill]

This is absolutely an unacceptable behavior. I wasn't on the stadium in Sochi that day.

But you do not call on Russian skaters to withdraw from the sport because their fans are toxic.,...
You do not say their impact on the sport was toxic because of their fans behaviour.
Look, this is just as two-faced and hypocritical as can be. And your posts and language just add to this toxicity and are no better than the vitriol in RTL which you claim to have disliked so much. They are just as toxic.
I will end here as I do not want to derail this thread any further but just stop dragging Yuzuru Hanyu through mud because you did not like the Poohs, It is ridiculus and pathetic.

 

[TallyT]

And, to finish this thought: I didn't like artificial extension of either Hanyu's or Plushenko's careers, or their idolization that brought on toxicity and overshadowed other skaters. I fully support and admire what they did when they finally finished their competitive careers (coaching and shows) and I think it would have been better for everyone and the sport if both of them retired earlier, instead of lonegvity

Well, you now have your wish and the ISU lost 11M USD - and look like losing Japanese TV and possibly some sponsors - to grant it. I hope they're happy.

 

[Magill]

And, well, Medvedeva, Trusova, they both retired when they couldn't keep up.

Yeah. I undertand coming 4th in Olymics is not being able to keep up. I understand everyone should withdraw except for the podium, what a bunch of losers....

 

[lariko]

But you do not call on Russian skaters to withdraw from the sport because their fans are toxic.,...
You do not say their impact on the sport was toxic because of their fans behaviour.
Look, this is just as two-faced and hypocritical as can be. And your posts and language just add to this toxicity and are no better than the vitriol in RTL which you claim to have disliked so much. They are just as toxic.
I will end here as I do not want to derail this thread any further but just stop dragging Yuzuru Hanyu through mud because you did not like the Poohs, It is ridiculus and pathetic.

Actually, I do suggest any skater--independently of the flag--to retire from competition instead of creating artificial longevity and idolization. Including Plushenko and Valieva. Idolization is wrong and detrimental. If any other skater strangleholds the sport and creates unhealthy atmosphere where competitors are vilified for no fault of their own, I would suggest they retire as well. Like Hanyu eventually did. Like Valieva hasn't, but I hope that she will be removed through other means soonish for the good of the sport as a whole.

 

[Magill]

Actually, I do suggest any skater--independently of the flag--to retire from competition instead of creating artificial longevity and idolization. Including Plushenko and Valieva. Idolization is wrong and detrimental. If any other skater strangleholds the sport and creates unhealthy atmosphere where competitors are vilified for no fault of their own, I would suggest they retire as well. Like Hanyu did.

Have you ever been to a rock concert? A tennis match? A football match?
They are all just as dangerous, or actually way more. Millions of people love them. Go there, scream there, have fun there.
I think this is envy speaking. That's all.
But, yes, if you think a 28 year old skater coming 4th in the Olympics is "artificial longevity", it just shows how great Yuzuru truly was, as this would be a great achievement for absolute majority of the field , even those in their prime age, and much, much younger.

 

[TallyT]

Now, let's get back to the question in question.

I still believe there should be room for both the youngsters and the stars (I mentioned Patrick, some of his post-Sochi skates were sublime and won gold. I have a personal soft spot for Voronov, who may not have been in the lofty heights but even in his uncle phase still podiumed in 2018 and satisfying to watch. I adore little Minsol and Minkyu and am following Anthony Paradis where I can, and they are just off the top off my head). Watching someone - hey even someone I like but aren't a huge fan of - grow and mature, their artistry deepen and their skating refine, is wonderful (the number of skaters I have on my HD folders,their career year by year, is rather startling when I look at it).

There should be ways to support all skaters and I think that was what @icewhite was originally asking about (incidentally @icewhite and others, I apologise just a little for my part in the upthread unpleasantness though not for defending). In the end, the market rules even more than the judges, but TPTB know that and should be working on it.

 

[lariko]

My experience as a spectator has been exactly the opposite. I ofetn wish the skater would would drop the costumed role-playing and just skate.

My favorite "story" for a figure skating performance remains Michelle Kwan's (and choreogrpher Lori Nichol's) conception for Lyra Angelica. The story line is "Michelle Kwan skating." Interestingly, Nichol did not choreograoh a closing pose for the program. Her instruction to Michelle was "Wing It."

Did this theme go along with the structure of the music? Absoluelty, Nichol chose the music (and had to talk Michelle into going along with it) because it was her favorite work -- "the music she wanted to hear the angels playing when she walked through the pearly gates."

I think someone had mentioned it once that they used to think skaters just improvise when they come on the ice. The basis of skating competition is a routine that is constructed of a certain bunch of elements.

The less mistake made when delivering this routine, the better. The more even the tech elements are spread out the better--though tbh, I loved Zagitova's backloaded program when she exploded into jumping in the second half, but I understand why this was forbidden. Novelty factor was cool. Everyone doing it would be boring.

For me though, aligning the technical elements with choreo and story brings more to the table and should be acceptable as a part of high PCSs as well as skater matching strokes to music, i.e. refinement without a story.