Patrick Chan ups ante on long program

[4everchan]

performing arts can be art but it can also be entertainment. I see "artsy" sports as entertainment. The athletes execute a choreography yes, and they skate to music, yes.... but they have a set of rules to gain points...even a defined time allowed to execute their elements. They are judged. It is first and foremost a sport...

I am not trying to prove anything as this debate has been going on forever and will keep going on... but personally, I see figure skating as a sport with entertainment value that goes beyond some other sports, since the inclusion of music and choreography is pleasing to the eye... However, it remains a sport with elements and rules....

Art requires more freedom in its expression and has to be intended primarily as art. That's where I draw the line....

here is a definition from a dictionary that sounds right to my ears.

The expression or application of creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting, drawing, or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.
notice the primarily... figure skating isn't art as it isn't intended primarily as such... it is a sport, with some artistic components.. but calling it art is a bit cocky to me.

I'm not understanding the distinction you're making. You've said that figure skating has very little to do with art and then compare it to the performing arts. But the performing arts are...arts. Granted, the balance between the athletic and aesthetic aspects of figure skating may be very different than those in ballet or opera, but that doesn't mean that both aspects don't exist in all three fields. Have you ever watched a dancer gasping for breath in the wings after executing a difficult variation? It requires tremendous athleticism for dancers to to what they do and make it look effortless.

The truth is, whether figure skating is pure athleticism or some combination of performance and athleticism is in the eye of the beholder. If you don't value the artistic aspect, that doesn't mean it's not there. In fact, contrary to your assertion, at least three of the PCS categories are intended to judge the expressive, musical and aesthetic aspects of a skater's performance, whether the judges use them that way or not:

http://www.isu.org/en/single-and-pair-skating-and-ice-dance/isu-judging-system/introduction


- Performance/Execution; is the physical and emotional involvement of the skater/couple as they translate the intent of the music and choreography (e.g. carriage, style, personality, variety, contrasts, projection)
- Choreography/Composition; which is the arrangement of all movements according to the principles of proportion, space and music (e.g. idea, concept, unity, pattern, phrasing, originality, design)
- Interpretation; which is the translation of the music to movement on ice (e.g. timing, expression of the music, use of nuances, relationship between partners, character of music)

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

It's a sport with an artistic aspect for sure. I think we are on the same page concerning that.

I also agree with the bolded part though which brings it back to the OP-- Patrick Chan should not expect his PCS to hold him up if he makes mistakes like at Worlds in 2012 and 2013. And it's about time he realized that he needed to upgrade his layout.

I disagree that Chan's artistic score will drop too much. We are now in an era where PCS isn't affected considerably by errors if you're a top skater. At this point, him/Javi/Hanyu will all score 92+ PCS even with a fall or other errors, because judges will still give out 9.75 and 10.00's for flawed performances (and, rather grievously, fans will actually try to defend that type of scoring with rhetoric like a fall wasn't disruptive or doubled jumps shouldn't affect the performance from being scored perfectly, or errors made technically shouldn't affect PCS, or clean program = 10.00 and so it's appropriate for a disastrous program to get 9.00 since its lower than that skater's max score ever achieved.

 

[Tavi...]

performing arts can be art but it can also be entertainment. I see "artsy" sports as entertainment. The athletes execute a choreography yes, and they skate to music, yes.... but they have a set of rules to gain points...even a defined time allowed to execute their elements. They are judged. It is first and foremost a sport...

I am not trying to prove anything as this debate has been going on forever and will keep going on... but personally, I see figure skating as a sport with entertainment value that goes beyond some other sports, since the inclusion of music and choreography is pleasing to the eye... However, it remains a sport with elements and rules....

Art requires more freedom in its expression and has to be intended primarily as art. That's where I draw the line....

here is a definition from a dictionary that sounds right to my ears.

The expression or application of creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting, drawing, or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.
notice the primarily... figure skating isn't art as it isn't intended primarily as such... it is a sport, with some artistic components.. but calling it art is a bit cocky to me.

Thank you for your reply. Yes, we all have different points of view. I will simply say that your chosen definition is one of many, and a narrow one at that. In fact, the first definition in my dictionary (Oxford, 2007) is simply "skill."

I don't think I've heard anyone here claim that figure skating is only or even primarily art. I will say, though, that if figure skating is only a sport, the requirements for music and choreography - and the components I mentioned above - are meaningless. I personally think they are meant to be meaningful. The fact that most skating music, choreography and interpretation are pretty abysmal doesn't negate that for me - it simply makes me appreciate the programs and performances that achieve more.

 

[Mathman]

...but calling it art is a bit cocky to me.

I feel the opposite. I think that calling other people cocky because they use the word "art" more broadly than you do -- that's cocky.

You are a musician, right? Do you feel that Meriam-Webster is compromising music's claim to be considered art?

The expression or application of creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting, drawing, or sculpture,…

As for entertainment, Shakespeare wrote to try to make a shilling by entertaining the audience. So did Dickens, who published his novels as serials in a magazine. If subscriptions fell off, he quickly changed the plot or introduced new characters. I hope no one is so cocky as to deny that the works of these writers comprise art -- or to arrogate to himself the right to dictate to others how the word "art" must and must not be used.

To me, figure skating pleases the eye. If it did not, I would not watch it.

According to the ISU, figure skating is 70% sport and 30% performing art. I think I agree with this assessment.

Just my extremely humble and non-cocky opinion, of curse.

(Signed, Yours truly, Uriah Heap.)

 

[4everchan]

well then let's go with the ISU then... 70% a sport... I think I am fine with that.... as it remains first and foremost a sport... like I have mentioned


regarding the dictionary definition, as Tavi has mentioned, I picked one, and this one is one of many. I chose that one since it especially talked about visual as figure skating is visual not musical... the music lives on its own. the skating then, if it claims to be art, would be a visual art form as it is a choreography.

this is just opinion sharing and I am sure many will disagree with me. And that's fine. I am an artist as you have noted. And I see things differently when it comes to claiming a sport is an artform.

In the end, I do love figure skating, perhaps because I love music but I enjoy sports like tennis and speed skating just as much... so I am not sure that the "artsy" 30% in figure skating is what is drawing me to the sport..

if we get back to the topic: I prefer intricate skating, edges, blade work and I am happy that Patrick's focus remains on that, while upping his content gradually does not sacrifice other elements of his skating.

I feel the opposite. I think that calling other people cocky because they use the word "art" more broadly than you do -- that's cocky.

You are a musician, right? Do you feel that Meriam-Webster is compromising music's claim to be considered art?



As for entertainment, Shakespeare wrote to try to make a shilling by entertaining the audience. So did Dickens, who published his novels as serials in a magazine. If subscriptions fell off, he quickly changed the plot or introduced new characters. I hope no one is so cocky as to deny that the works of these writers comprise art -- or to arrogate to himself the right to dictate to others how the word "art" must and must not be used.

To me, figure skating pleases the eye. If it did not, I would not watch it.

According to the ISU, figure skating is 70% sport and 30% performing art. I think I agree with this assessment.

Just my extremely humble and non-cocky opinion, of curse.

(Signed, Yours truly, Uriah Heap.)

 

[Mathman]

... the skating then, if it claims to be art, would be a visual art form as it is a choreography.

??? Well of course it is visual. Do you watch a figure skating performance with your eyes shut?

Is ballet an art form? It is dancing -- to musical accompaniment. But if we did not care about the visual aspect, we would go to the symphony instead.

By the way, I just watched the U.S. delayed television coverage of Europeans. Kovtun took on Beethoven. Beethoven won. I wish I had closed my eyes.

 

[gravy]

I disagree that Chan's artistic score will drop too much. We are now in an era where PCS isn't affected considerably by errors if you're a top skater. At this point, him/Javi/Hanyu will all score 92+ PCS even with a fall or other errors, because judges will still give out 9.75 and 10.00's for flawed performances (and, rather grievously, fans will actually try to defend that type of scoring with rhetoric like a fall wasn't disruptive or doubled jumps shouldn't affect the performance from being scored perfectly, or errors made technically shouldn't affect PCS, or clean program = 10.00 and so it's appropriate for a disastrous program to get 9.00 since its lower than that skater's max score ever achieved.

You're right actually. I blame the insane GPF scoring across all disciplines in Barcelona.

 

[Tavi...]

You're right actually. I blame the insane GPF scoring across all disciplines in Barcelona.

It does boggle the mind, the brave, new, post-GPF 2015 world of PCS.

I don't know what the judges are thinking. They seem to just pick a skater or skaters and start inflating their PCS for no real discernible reason. The increase in Javi's PCS in the past year, for example, is just incredible. At Skate Canada 2014, it was 43/84; at Rostelcom, 43/88; at GPF 2014, 41/87; Euros 2015, 43/89; Worlds 2015, 44/89. This year? Russia, 45/93; China, 44/92; GPF, 47/97; Euros, 47/94. Yes he's skating better and has recently increased his tech, but enough to warrant that kind of increase? Not in my opinion, anyway.

 

[4everchan]

wow... way to pick a quarter of a sentence to make someone sound dumb

i expected better from you mathman that behaviour approaches cockiness to say the least.

??? Well of course it is visual. Do you watch a figure skating performance with your eyes shut?

Is ballet an art form? It is dancing -- to musical accompaniment. But if we did not care about the visual aspect, we would go to the symphony instead.

By the way, I just watched the U.S. delayed television coverage of Europeans. Kovtun took on Beethoven. Beethoven won. I wish I had closed my eyes.

 

[Rissa]

wow... way to pick a quarter of a sentence to make someone sound dumb

i expected better from you mathman that behaviour approaches cockiness to say the least.

There's no point of quoting everythig or picking apart everything if only there's only one part one has issue with... That's not cockiness, that's clarity.

 

[4everchan]

1) it's pretty bold to answer something addressed to someone else
2) context is everything. having an issue, as you say, with only a bit of a post, and quoting it out of context is actually opposed to clarity. It creates a completely different meaning. See example below. I only took the words from your posts that were iffy with me.

There's no issue with cockiness.

 

[Interspectator]

well then let's go with the ISU then... 70% a sport... I think I am fine with that.... as it remains first and foremost a sport... like I have mentioned


regarding the dictionary definition, as Tavi has mentioned, I picked one, and this one is one of many. I chose that one since it especially talked about visual as figure skating is visual not musical... the music lives on its own. the skating then, if it claims to be art, would be a visual art form as it is a choreography.

this is just opinion sharing and I am sure many will disagree with me. And that's fine. I am an artist as you have noted. And I see things differently when it comes to claiming a sport is an artform.

In the end, I do love figure skating, perhaps because I love music but I enjoy sports like tennis and speed skating just as much... so I am not sure that the "artsy" 30% in figure skating is what is drawing me to the sport..

if we get back to the topic: I prefer intricate skating, edges, blade work and I am happy that Patrick's focus remains on that, while upping his content gradually does not sacrifice other elements of his skating.

Well, taking your WHOLE post, and not cutting anything out, Mathman's point still stands and I agree with it. An art form is equally valid in a visual, aural or tactile form. Or all three combined.
I am of the opinion that figure skating is a sport first and then an art-form only as a by-product, but the 'artistry' whether one calls it entertainment, or performing, or dancing is absolutely necessary to figure skating. even if it only makes up 30-40% of the whole.
I would never watch skating if there was no music, no costumes no dancing and step sequences were done in silence.
Watching it once might be interesting, but not over and over again.

One is not cocky because one believes that skating is an art-form...I actually feel that people who set art up as a narrow and conditional experience are more cocky than those who find art everywhere; in figure skating and all other outlets for the Human souls' need to create and compete at the same time.

But since I believe that art can be found everywhere, I don't think it should have much to do with the technical judging of figure skating. As others have pointed out, it could be around 30%.

There is also the consideration that perfect technique can also be called artistry.

But we are wandering from the topic. Patrick Chan...raising the technical content of his programs in order to be competitive with the rest of the field.

He was able to do much better at his nationals than he had all season so it is a step in the right direction for sure. Next stop is 4CC where he will be up against the amazingly talented all-around skaters Denis Ten and Shoma Uno as well as Boyang Jin who has also hit a nearly perfect LP for the first time and amassed a TES 113. Quite spectacular. I looked at the protocols and the judges were not going crazy on his GOEs, mostly 1s and some 2s. How will things stack up? Will Patrick win if he is able to execute his LP without popping anything and everyone else goes clean? Denis Ten is also adding a 3rd quad to his new LP. All-in-all so many things to look forward to in the next big competition. :thumbsup:

 

[4everchan]

as I said in my post, I don't expect everyone to agree with me when it comes to art. I was just sharing my opinion and it's not up for debate

thank you for bringing the thread back to Chan's LP. I tried a couple times

I agree with you that the competition will be stiff at 4CC. I think though that if he skates clean, he should be on top. I will be excited to see Denis as I haven't seen much of him this season. Shoma is great but with all due respect, I do not think his skating in the 30% zone ISU calls art is at the same level yet as other more seasoned athletes... what makes his performance engaging, aside from great technical prowess is simply the intense piece of music he is using which always brings the crowd in.... (and that's why figure skaters use warhorses.... it enhances the connection with the crowd..... and you can perhaps see where I was going with talking about how artsy the sport is...)

However, if Patrick goes down, as we have noticed this year, PCS are given easily to almost anybody and will not hold up anyone.... so it will be a great test for Patrick.

Well, taking your WHOLE post, and not cutting anything out, Mathman's point still stands and I agree with it. An art form is equally valid in a visual, aural or tactile form. Or all three combined.
I am of the opinion that figure skating is a sport first and then an art-form only as a by-product, but the 'artistry' whether one calls it entertainment, or performing, or dancing is absolutely necessary to figure skating. even if it only makes up 30-40% of the whole.
One is not cocky because one believes that it is an art-form...I actually feel that people who set art up as a narrow and conditional experience are more cocky than those who find art everywhere; in figure skating and all other outlets for the Human souls' need to create and compete at the same time.

But since I believe that art can be found everywhere, I don't think it should have much to do with the technical judging of figure skating. As others have pointed out, it could be around 30%.

There is also the consideration that perfect technique can also be called artistry.

But we are wandering from the topic. Patrick Chan...raising the technical content of his programs in order to be competitive with the rest of the field.

He was able to do much better at his nationals than he had all season so it is a step in the right direction for sure. Next stop is 4CC where he will be up against the amazingly talented all-around skaters Denis Ten and Shoma Uno as well as Boyang Jin who has also hit a nearly perfect LP for the first time and amassed a TES 113. Quite spectacular. I looked at the protocols and the judges were not going crazy on his GOEs, mostly 1s and some 2s. How will things stack up? Will Patrick win if he is able to execute his LP without popping anything and everyone else goes clean? Denis Ten is also adding a 3rd quad to his new LP. All-in-all so many things to look forward to in the next big competition. :thumbsup:

 

[Interspectator]

as I said in my post, I don't expect everyone to agree with me when it comes to art. I was just sharing my opinion and it's not up for debate

thank you for bringing the thread back to Chan's LP. I tried a couple times

I agree with you that the competition will be stiff at 4CC. I think though that if he skates clean, he should be on top. I will be excited to see Denis as I haven't seen much of him this season. Shoma is great but with all due respect, I do not think his skating in the 30% zone ISU calls art is at the same level yet as other more seasoned athletes... what makes his performance engaging, aside from great technical prowess is simply the intense piece of music he is using which always brings the crowd in.... (and that's why figure skaters use warhorses.... it enhances the connection with the crowd..... and you can perhaps see where I was going with talking about how artsy the sport is...)

However, if Patrick goes down, as we have noticed this year, PCS are given easily to almost anybody and will not hold up anyone.... so it will be a great test for Patrick.

If you post something on a discussion forum, it is up for debate.

I think Shoma's connection to the audience and his music goes beyond the choosing of a well known piece of music. It does help, but Max Aaron has experienced less success using the same music, and the difference is the innate and trained skill that Shoma has to move his entire body to the music. He skates with power, using deep edges and while he is still behind in speed and transitions, the judges have given him huge scores in PCS for a first year senior skater. Whether one agrees with the PCS given or not, the skating world and the judges all view Shoma as a medal contender since his first senior appearance.

 

[HanDomi]

If you post something on a discussion forum, it is up for debate.

I think Shoma's connection to the audience and his music goes beyond the choosing of a well known piece of music. It does help, but Max Aaron has experienced less success using the same music, and the difference is the innate and trained skill that Shoma has to move his entire body to the music. He skates with power, using deep edges and while he is still behind in speed and transitions, the judges have given him huge scores in PCS for a first year senior skater. Whether one agrees with the PCS given or not, the skating world and the judges all view Shoma as a medal contender since his first senior appearance.

To be fair all top guys scores magically jumped up after Hanyu records. The least one that got any bonus was Chan because he already had huge PCS, but Fernandez scores just jumped up even with skates filled with mistakes.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

To be fair all top guys scores magically jumped up after Hanyu records. The least one that got any bonus was Chan because he already had huge PCS, but Fernandez scores just jumped up even with skates filled with mistakes.

Agreed. There's absolutely no way that Javi's Euros FS deserved 94.36 PCS with 3 errors, including a fall. 9.75/10.00 for performance and execution. Like, wth. Even Chan has never been the beneficiary of scores like that when he's made errors.

 

[Rissa]

1) it's pretty bold to answer something addressed to someone else
2) context is everything. having an issue, as you say, with only a bit of a post, and quoting it out of context is actually opposed to clarity. It creates a completely different meaning. See example below. I only took the words from your posts that were iffy with me.

There's no issue with cockiness.

Lol what, are you serious with that? I mean I understand what you were trying to do, but hate to tell you that cutting up somebody's words and rearanging them into an entirely new sentence is nowhere near of just cutting out the relevant part one is addressing. Definitely not a mark of someone who should be taken seriously in a discussion.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

You're right actually. I blame the insane GPF scoring across all disciplines in Barcelona.

It was absolutely nuts. The GPF judges in their eagerness to break records have essentially closed the door for any non-established skater to even remotely compete with skaters like Fernandez and Medvedeva, who can fall and still score 9.25+, even get 9.75 and 10.00.

People need to forget about the scoring in the GPF and everyone's PCS needs to drop like 5 points, so judges can start actually giving relative PCS scores which distinguish skaters. On one level, I like it because for the top skaters it actually evens them out and then it comes down to technical performance... but the problem is, the lower tier of skaters is still getting 7.5's for clean skates which points wise is 20 points behind a top skater's PCS even with a flawed program... so it essentially negates the value of any clean technical execution/difficulty for them. And then you have to have skaters with 4 quads like Jin/Chen who have to do that to attempt to keep up (which of course, people slam them for doing instead of working on the artistry and hoping that the judges bump it up whenever they feel like it).

 

[Mathman]

as I said in my post, I don't expect everyone to agree with me when it comes to art. I was just sharing my opinion and it's not up for debate.

The reason people are jumping on you on this thread is that you did not just share your opinion, you denigrated the opinions of others.

 

[4everchan]

playing with the quote was sarcasm obviously

Lol what, are you serious with that? I mean I understand what you were trying to do, but hate to tell you that cutting up somebody's words and rearanging them into an entirely new sentence is nowhere near of just cutting out the relevant part one is addressing. Definitely not a mark of someone who should be taken seriously in a discussion.