Patrick Chan ups ante on long program

[4everchan]

I think this has to do with semantics.

I am not expressing an opinion when I talk about ART. It's a conviction. That's why I am not willing to debate it much... and probably why I sound way too harsh in a discussion about Sport vs Art. For this, I am happy to apologize.

Now, getting pounced on as you say yourself for this, doesn't make things better as it appears like retaliation. Two bads don't make one good.

The reason people are jumping on you on this thread is that you did not just share your opinion, you denigrated the opinions of others.

 

[mrrice]

One of these days I'm going to drink a ton of ice wine and have a "drunk Uncle" moment about how mean some people are when it comes to Patrick.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuduYMzY3Dc

 

[Mathman]

I am not expressing an opinion when I talk about ART. It's a conviction. That's why I am not willing to debate it much... and probably why I sound way too harsh in a discussion about Sport vs Art. For this, I am happy to apologize.

Me, too. Sorry I pounced on you. I am glad that you have strong convictions about art.

 

[Sydney Rose]

It does boggle the mind, the brave, new, post-GPF 2015 world of PCS.

I don't know what the judges are thinking. They seem to just pick a skater or skaters and start inflating their PCS for no real discernible reason. The increase in Javi's PCS in the past year, for example, is just incredible. At Skate Canada 2014, it was 43/84; at Rostelcom, 43/88; at GPF 2014, 41/87; Euros 2015, 43/89; Worlds 2015, 44/89. This year? Russia, 45/93; China, 44/92; GPF, 47/97; Euros, 47/94. Yes he's skating better and has recently increased his tech, but enough to warrant that kind of increase? Not in my opinion, anyway.

Javi's PCS did not rise for "no discernible reason." He started working with Brian & Tracy back in 2011 and it's 2016 now -- that's quite a long period of time to improve one's skating skills and everything else that comprises PCS.

From a 2012 article on Patrick Chan: “Quite often, Patrick has been in a field by himself,” observes Brian Orser, global champion turned coach who trains Fernandez in Toronto and has also recently taken on Japanese teen phenomenon Yuzuru Hanyu. (At Skate America a week ago, Hanyu broke Chan’s short program marks record.) “But all these guys, not just Javi, they’re figuring out what it is they need to do to beat him. And it’s not just doing the quads. It’s skating skills, it’s the program, it’s the packaging, everything. Everybody’s kind of getting it. When Elvis (Stojko) was the leader doing all the quads, it was, OK, we all have to do quads. Now everybody’s learning how to skate.”

So as Brian pointed out way back then, Chan's competition realized they needed to do more than quads in order to beat him. And that's what happened. And Javi really has it all now, including being a natural performer with lots of charisma who really connects with his audience. In their commentary on Europeans, Brits Chris & Nicky were lavish with their praise of him and the way his team paid attention to every detail. They also made a point of saying that, even when he makes an error, his head never drops and he continues to sell his program. And his PCS reflect this.

 

[Lexiglass]

Javi's PCS did not rise for "no discernible reason." He started working with Brian & Tracy back in 2011 and it's 2016 now -- that's quite a long period of time to improve one's skating skills and everything else that comprises PCS.

From a 2012 article on Patrick Chan: “Quite often, Patrick has been in a field by himself,” observes Brian Orser, global champion turned coach who trains Fernandez in Toronto and has also recently taken on Japanese teen phenomenon Yuzuru Hanyu. (At Skate America a week ago, Hanyu broke Chan’s short program marks record.) “But all these guys, not just Javi, they’re figuring out what it is they need to do to beat him. And it’s not just doing the quads. It’s skating skills, it’s the program, it’s the packaging, everything. Everybody’s kind of getting it. When Elvis (Stojko) was the leader doing all the quads, it was, OK, we all have to do quads. Now everybody’s learning how to skate.”

So as Brian pointed out way back then, Chan's competition realized they needed to do more than quads in order to beat him. And that's what happened. And Javi really has it all now, including being a natural performer with lots of charisma who really connects with his audience. In their commentary on Europeans, Brits Chris & Nicky were lavish with their praise of him and the way his team paid attention to every detail. They also made a point of saying that, even when he makes an error, his head never drops and he continues to sell his program. And his PCS reflect this.

Of course Javi has improved since 2011, but the question is: is he 5-10 points better in PCS this year compared to last year? Do you see a dramatic difference in his skating skills and performance, just year over year from last year, to justify such a big change in scores? I love Javi and wish him every success so this not a slight on him, just pointing out the obvious that these scores are not really reflecting what is put on the ice - either his scores were too low last year, or they're too high this year because his skating skills/performance haven't made that big of a leap.

 

[Tavi...]

Javi's PCS did not rise for "no discernible reason." He started working with Brian & Tracy back in 2011 and it's 2016 now -- that's quite a long period of time to improve one's skating skills and everything else that comprises PCS.

From a 2012 article on Patrick Chan: “Quite often, Patrick has been in a field by himself,” observes Brian Orser, global champion turned coach who trains Fernandez in Toronto and has also recently taken on Japanese teen phenomenon Yuzuru Hanyu. (At Skate America a week ago, Hanyu broke Chan’s short program marks record.) “But all these guys, not just Javi, they’re figuring out what it is they need to do to beat him. And it’s not just doing the quads. It’s skating skills, it’s the program, it’s the packaging, everything. Everybody’s kind of getting it. When Elvis (Stojko) was the leader doing all the quads, it was, OK, we all have to do quads. Now everybody’s learning how to skate.”

So as Brian pointed out way back then, Chan's competition realized they needed to do more than quads in order to beat him. And that's what happened. And Javi really has it all now, including being a natural performer with lots of charisma who really connects with his audience. In their commentary on Europeans, Brits Chris & Nicky were lavish with their praise of him and the way his team paid attention to every detail. They also made a point of saying that, even when he makes an error, his head never drops and he continues to sell his program. And his PCS reflect this.

Whether his current PCS is deserved or inexplicable is a matter of opinion, not fact, just as your statement that he has it all is opinion, not fact. You clearly believe his PCS is fully deserved. I don't. Yes he has improved, but in my opinion, not enough to justify the rise in his PCS. Frankly, in my opinion, no one deserves PCS of 94 for the kind of sloppy FS he put out at Euros. Sorry.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Of course Javi has improved since 2011, but the question is: is he 5-10 points better in PCS this year compared to last year? Do you see a dramatic difference in his skating skills and performance, just year over year from last year, to justify such a big change in scores? I love Javi and wish him every success so this not a slight on him, just pointing out the obvious that these scores are not really reflecting what is put on the ice - either his scores were too low last year, or they're too high this year because his skating skills/performance haven't made that big of a leap.

Thank you. His skating is a 95 PCS at the very best (e.g. GPF). With errors like at Euros, he should earn no more than 92ish. Hanyu at his best shouldn't be hitting 98.50 either.

If there were a perfect skater, who delivered the technical content of Hanyu with the skating skills and choreography of Patrick Chan, then a 98.50 would be deserved (i.e. if Chan were somehow able to execute Hanyu's content - which of course, he can't - he should get 98.50). Hanyu definitely deserves to be around 96, and Chan definitely deserves to be around 96, for clean performances, but each has what the other needs to crack 98 (legitimately).

 

[Rissa]

Thank you. His skating is a 95 PCS at the very best (e.g. GPF). With errors like at Euros, he should earn no more than 92ish. Hanyu at his best shouldn't be hitting 98.50 either.

If there were a perfect skater, who delivered the technical content of Hanyu with the skating skills and choreography of Patrick Chan, then a 98.50 would be deserved (i.e. if Chan were somehow able to execute Hanyu's content - which of course, he can't - he should get 98.50). Hanyu definitely deserves to be around 96, and Chan definitely deserves to be around 96, for clean performances, but each has what the other needs to crack 98 (legitimately).

Actually, I think Javier has better choreography than Patrick and deserves higher notes for it than Patrick.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Actually, I think Javier has better choreography than Patrick and deserves higher notes for it than Patrick.

To each their own. I think Javier's choreography has improved and lends itself to interpretation, but I also think it serves to hide Javier's skating ability flaws (he always seems to choose some comedic/razzle dazzle piece, and part of that is because he doesn't have the same depth of edge or control, or sophistication in his edge work as Chan). Patrick's choreography really leaves nothing to hide, and is quite masterful. Javier's is meant to be entertaining, so it's really different strokes for different folks between the two.

 

[Pamigena]

To each their own. I think Javier's choreography has improved and lends itself to interpretation, but I also think it serves to hide Javier's skating ability flaws (he always seems to choose some comedic/razzle dazzle piece, and part of that is because he doesn't have the same depth of edge or control, or sophistication in his edge work as Chan). Patrick's choreography really leaves nothing to hide, and is quite masterful. Javier's is meant to be entertaining, so it's really different strokes for different folks between the two.

Couldn't you just as well say that Chan's choreography is intended to draw attention to his skating skills because he needs to compensate for lower technical content? :confused2: not being snarky here, just an observation. Both are legitimate strategies IMHO

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Couldn't you just as well say that Chan's choreography is intended to draw attention to his skating skills because he needs to compensate for lower technical content? :confused2: not being snarky here, just an observation. Both are legitimate strategies IMHO

Oh, I completely agree that Javier's strategy is legitimate. After all, skating is all about playing to your strengths and concealing weaknesses. But to give Javier higher CH marks than Chan, when it's obvious that his choreo deliberately is used to hide his flaws is like rewarding Plushenko for having great CH because he draws attention to his arms and upper body to hide the fact that his feet aren't doing anything particularly challenging. CH is a lot of things, but I personally prefer CH that accentuates a skater's skating ability, not hides it, and think that should be held in higher regard. That being said, I still very much enjoy Fernandez's choreo (especially after that first 3A in the FS) and am thoroughly entertained by him in any program (even if he does have a shtick).

And yes, Patrick has mentioned his lower content and that he wants it to be about skating -- if you can't outjump them, you can outskate them... and vice versa.

Next year, I would love to see Javier try a program that is more fluid and shows off his edge work, with softer knees and more lilt to his skating... you can't really do that with the themes he's picked. I don't get a sense of ease with Fernandez; everything is either attacked or campy/comedic. Which is fine, because that's his style -- I would like to see him diversify a bit more though.

 

[HanDomi]

Oh, I completely agree that Javier's strategy is legitimate. After all, skating is all about playing to your strengths and concealing weaknesses. But to give Javier higher CH marks than Chan, when it's obvious that his choreo deliberately is used to hide his flaws is like rewarding Plushenko for having great CH because he draws attention to his arms and upper body to hide the fact that his feet aren't doing anything particularly challenging. CH is a lot of things, but I personally prefer CH that accentuates a skater's skating ability, not hides it, and think that should be held in higher regard. That being said, I still very much enjoy Fernandez's choreo (especially after that first 3A in the FS) and am thoroughly entertained by him in any program (even if he does have a shtick).

And yes, Patrick has mentioned his lower content and that he wants it to be about skating -- if you can't outjump them, you can outskate them... and vice versa.

Next year, I would love to see Javier try a program that is more fluid and shows off his edge work, with softer knees and more lilt to his skating... you can't really do that with the themes he's picked. I don't get a sense of ease with Fernandez; everything is either attacked or campy/comedic. Which is fine, because that's his style -- I would like to see him diversify a bit more though.

Fernandez instantly uses choreography, where he can use more armography, a lot little jumps trough choreo, more stiff moves, comedy moves. He doesn't have skating quality flow and gaining speed in easy way of either Hanyu or Chan and they want to hide it, and it seems to work that Fernandez is marked equally high in SS

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Fernandez instantly uses choreography, where he can use more armography, a lot little jumps trough choreo, more stiff moves, comedy moves. He doesn't have skating quality flow and gaining speed in easy way of either Hanyu or Chan and they want to hide it, and it seems to work that Fernandez is marked equally high in SS

Javier should NOT be marked so high in SS... 9.50 is way too much. He has excellent speed but he doesn't have the edges that Chan or Hanyu (and I would add Uno, too) have, and I think his choreography works against exhibiting that. You only have to compare his footwork sequence to theirs (the feet I'm talking about), to see the difference in overall skating quality.

 

[Blades of Passion]

If there were a perfect skater, who delivered the technical content of Hanyu with the skating skills and choreography of Patrick Chan, then a 98.50 would be deserved (i.e. if Chan were somehow able to execute Hanyu's content - which of course, he can't - he should get 98.50). Hanyu definitely deserves to be around 96, and Chan definitely deserves to be around 96, for clean performances, but each has what the other needs to crack 98 (legitimately).

Hanyu's technical content has little/nothing to do with PCS. I don't at all agree he deserves 96 when skating his program perfectly either. Nor does Patrick Chan have particularly amazing choreography.

Javier's SP is considerably better than this LP, so the PCS should reflect that. I'd say his "Chaplin" LP is the only LP he's ever had that should potentially be hitting 90's in PCS.

 

[melmel]

See, I disagree with a lot of stuff here.

About the "type" of programs Javi does for example, for me they aren't the same at all. I think because he has a natural "bouncyness" people mistake it for "attempt at being funny/comical". I think the curent vibe from Javi is "charming", but even that is done from different angles. His olympic FS was very sensual, his Figaro program was operatic (and NOT comedic), and this year FS is very "old Hollywood/broadway". To me it's completely different atmospheres, intentions and choreographies.
About his edges, when I discovered him (at the same time as Yuzuru) I thought he had better edges than Yuzu and I do think it's only this season that Yuzu caught up on him about that. Patrick sure has very nice long deep edges, but he's struggling when his footwork would need a bit more "snap", something that isn't a struggle for Javi, especially this year. (Patrick's SP comes to mind in terms of lacking smoothness mixed with snap in terms of execution and interpretation, plus to me he has moments of graces in his FS but he doesn't hold them through the entirety of the program, so both choreographically and in interpretation i put him behind javi, yuzu and denis)

My "problem", is that since Patrick excelled at long deep edges, there is this sort of "well we decides that this is now the standard text book for skating skill/PCS". I agree for the edges, but not as overal skating skills. And definetely not for PCS overall.

And if we're going to say that Javi doesn't deserve his PCS because he does "humourous" (which is untrue btw) programs all the time, Patrick doesn't deserves his either because he only do classical programs. We can't in all honesty praise Patrick for excelling at long, "slow" (in a good way), fluid classical program, because it's his forte, and say Javi is less deserving because he plays his forte style too ! (plus are you really comparing his competitive programs in terms of comedic when you see his exhibitions ? If Javi really wanted to do "funny" programs, we know he could. Playful isn't "funny". Charming isn't "comedic".)

I think if there was something to criticize and to compare between Javi and Patrick it's the quality of their spins. There I would agree that Patrick is technically much better. But in terms of PCS and skating skill, to me it's not a difference in technique, but a difference of style and I put them at an equivalent level.

 

[HanDomi]

About his edges, when I discovered him (at the same time as Yuzuru) I thought he had better edges than Yuzu and I do think it's only this season that Yuzu caught up on him about that. Patrick sure has very nice long deep edges, but he's struggling when his footwork would need a bit more "snap", something that isn't a struggle for Javi, especially this year.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Hanyu's technical content has little/nothing to do with PCS.

It definitely does. It has do with his TR mark (since transitions on quads and 3As are much more impressive than on triples), his CH mark (balancing difficulty in both parts of the program instead of frontloading), and definitely on his PE mark -- a program with more difficulty is more difficult to perform, and leaves a greater impression, and shouldn't get the same marks as if the program was performed exactly the same but with all double jumps.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

See, I disagree with a lot of stuff here.

About the "type" of programs Javi does for example, for me they aren't the same at all. I think because he has a natural "bouncyness" people mistake it for "attempt at being funny/comical". I think the curent vibe from Javi is "charming", but even that is done from different angles. His olympic FS was very sensual, his Figaro program was operatic (and NOT comedic), and this year FS is very "old Hollywood/broadway". To me it's completely different atmospheres, intentions and choreographies.
About his edges, when I discovered him (at the same time as Yuzuru) I thought he had better edges than Yuzu and I do think it's only this season that Yuzu caught up on him about that. Patrick sure has very nice long deep edges, but he's struggling when his footwork would need a bit more "snap", something that isn't a struggle for Javi, especially this year. (Patrick's SP comes to mind in terms of lacking smoothness mixed with snap in terms of execution and interpretation, plus to me he has moments of graces in his FS but he doesn't hold them through the entirety of the program, so both choreographically and in interpretation i put him behind javi, yuzu and denis)

My "problem", is that since Patrick excelled at long deep edges, there is this sort of "well we decides that this is now the standard text book for skating skill/PCS". I agree for the edges, but not as overal skating skills. And definetely not for PCS overall.

And if we're going to say that Javi doesn't deserve his PCS because he does "humourous" (which is untrue btw) programs all the time, Patrick doesn't deserves his either because he only do classical programs. We can't in all honesty praise Patrick for excelling at long, "slow" (in a good way), fluid classical program, because it's his forte, and say Javi is less deserving because he plays his forte style too ! (plus are you really comparing his competitive programs in terms of comedic when you see his exhibitions ? If Javi really wanted to do "funny" programs, we know he could. Playful isn't "funny". Charming isn't "comedic".)

I think if there was something to criticize and to compare between Javi and Patrick it's the quality of their spins. There I would agree that Patrick is technically much better. But in terms of PCS and skating skill, to me it's not a difference in technique, but a difference of style and I put them at an equivalent level.

I see where you're coming from, with regards to defending Javi's style. The issue is, the style of program he does doesn't exhibit control of edges... and often times he "plays off" errors or stumbles as part of the interpretation (particularly in his Chaplin program he would do it). As mentioned, I don't get a sense of ease from his skating and I don't just mean flowing, calming ease, I mean I don't get the sense of security on his edges and effortlessness that I get from Chan. And the reason Patrick's long deep edges are the standard (as it has always been in figure skating), is that it's much more difficult to carve out edges and ensure that turns are made on the proper edges and generate speed with less steps, unless you have that control. You look at a program like Kurt Browning's clown/Brick House program, or Chan's Take Five/Mack The Knife, or Hanyu's Parisien Walkways, and you can see that a program doesn't have to be "classical" to exhibit edges and great skating skills.

 

[Blades of Passion]

It definitely does. It has do with his TR mark (since transitions on quads and 3As are much more impressive than on triples), his CH mark (balancing difficulty in both parts of the program instead of frontloading), and definitely on his PE mark -- a program with more difficulty is more difficult to perform, and leaves a greater impression, and shouldn't get the same marks as if the program was performed exactly the same but with all double jumps.

Nobody is talking about performing a program exactly the same but with all double jumps. Your assertion was that higher PCS is inherently deserved for having more difficult jumps, which is not true in and of itself. Sure, perhaps the transitions and choreography can utilize those difficult jumps in a special away, but just having them doesn't mean anything aside from the TES score.

Hanyu's 2012 LP with one Quad is still the best actual program he's had. :agree:

 

[melmel]

I see where you're coming from, with regards to defending Javi's style. The issue is, the style of program he does doesn't exhibit control of edges... and often times he "plays off" errors or stumbles as part of the interpretation (particularly in his Chaplin program he would do it). As mentioned, I don't get a sense of ease from his skating and I don't just mean flowing, calming ease, I mean I don't get the sense of security on his edges and effortlessness that I get from Chan. And the reason Patrick's long deep edges are the standard (as it has always been in figure skating), is that it's much more difficult to carve out edges and ensure that turns are made on the proper edges and generate speed with less steps, unless you have that control. You look at a program like Kurt Browning's clown/Brick House program, or Chan's Take Five/Mack The Knife, or Hanyu's Parisien Walkways, and you can see that a program doesn't have to be "classical" to exhibit edges and great skating skills.

The thing with Chaplin is that if you do a Chaplin program you have to have "stumbles" in your choreography. You can't do anything invoking Chaplin if there isn't any "fake stumbling", it goes for skating, but also for dancing, acting etc. So I don't really see it as a "oopsie let's pass it off as intentional". I see your point but I can't appoint it to Javi because I don't see it. I think a lot of Javi's natural body moves can give a vibe that gets mistaken. For example, the position of his hands are often like the position we naturally have when we stumble (palms toward the front and fingers up) unlike other skaters that keep their hands aligned with their arms. But he has this hand position whether he's super clean or messing up at every turn. So we'll probably have to agree to disagree on this point I mean, everytime I see Chan do his twizzle to go into his camel spin in his FS this year I'm feeling like he's going to splat at every turn so XD. (but I get and see what you mean about the feeling of security about the edges)

I wasn't saying that only classical programs could exhibit edges, I was just saying that if people were going to complain about the fact that Javier goes always for the same style and that should, in some way, bring his PCS down, then the same rule should apply to Chan since he always do classic music. And as much as I can agree about Hanyu's PW, I can't count Mack the Knife in the "good for exhibiting edges and skating skills" because for now it's still a lot of miss for me. It's not against Chan. He's like a ballet dancer coming into a jazz club and he still has a hard time clicking with his music. So for now to me in MTK, his loooooooong edges would need more snap at the end to be up to the theme of his program. (but I think he chose a really hard music for himself with his SP. Because it is a very bouncy music. Would he have taken something more languid in the same style as PW, I think he would have struggled less).