Patrick Chan

[callalily]

Having said that, it doesn't take away Patrick's and my admiration for the early quaders. It is always much harder, almost insurmountable, to pioneer something, to set a record, which then breaks the belief barrier for later achievers.

Yes, I remember Kurt Browning saying that he used to practice the quad on his own at night when no one was around, because he was almost embarrassed to be trying it, it seemed kind of outrageous at the time.

Very different from today when people use computers to analyze their motion in a jump like the quad, have the full support/encouragement of their coaches, and have other models to watch. (It's still incredibly difficult to do quads of course, especially to land them reliably in competition, but I have great respect for the pioneers.)

 

[prettykeys]

Whether it plays a significant role or an imperceptible role, I don't know, for I don't know him personally. I highly doubt that he is an arrogant brat like sometimes he was displayed. One thing that we all agreed is that he needs PR training for his own good.

It can't be his background, Bluebonnet. Two of my best friends from school are Chinese-Canadian (fluent in both Cantonese and English, with a slight accent when speaking English) and they are both hypersensitive about etiquette and being polite. LOL I had to team up with one of them to "train" the other to not feel obligated to hold doors for every student that tries to walk through a door she happens to open!

By the way, I am told that I am "bold", too. I once casually asked a friend if he has a lisp (it was faint) - and someone else laughingly scolded me that that's not the sort of thing I should ask people. But, I just didn't think it was something anyone should be embarrassed about, and that friend knew I had a lot of affection for him. Plus, I just like being a little more direct, and I have the tendency to assume that people will see my intentions aren't bad.

I think we are just seeing individual differences in personalities. This is NOT to say that I don't think Patrick Chan could benefit from a mind-mouth filter, but I think at times he is judged too harshly. Words are only a small portion of the communication a person uses, and nonverbal is said to be greater than verbal! The nonverbal tell me he is a nice guy, a little impudent perhaps, but more misunderstood than he is malicious.

 

[dorispulaski]

People say that non-verbal is more important than verbal, and that is true for most people, but people need to be aware that there are a lot of people who can't read non-verbal communication at all, and not just those who are blind. No one should assume that a person knows what their "non-verbal communication" says if they are one of those people. My brother, my nephew, my nephew's son, and to some lesser extent, myself, are all in that group.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Yes, I remember Kurt Browning saying that he used to practice the quad on his own at night when no one was around, because he was almost embarrassed to be trying it, it seemed kind of outrageous at the time.

Kurt Browning . And he's still outrageous.

Justine Chiu shows photos of Patrick with the media and on ice with his coach at the High Performance Camp but he is not in any of the blurry twitted pictures from the camp. I figure he is there to get judges feedback on his new LP and otherwise make maximum use of his time for training instead of participating in group activities. I'm really curious to see the debut of his new program. Though there are complaints of Aranjuez being an overused music, it is really so beautiful but its emotions have rarely been portrayed well in skating IMHO. Patrick picked it out of instant connection and appreciation of the story behind its creation. He has described the new program as emotional and artistically very different from the POTO, and also as keeping an even energy throughout. As well, he will be portraying a character. With his focus on expression and performance, I'm especially interested to see the choreography and his interpretaion. If he feels satisfied by the end of the season, he may pick a new program next year? Or just a new SP and then work on the Olympic programs? Who knows?

 

[Bluebonnet]

It can't be his background, Bluebonnet. Two of my best friends from school are Chinese-Canadian (fluent in both Cantonese and English, with a slight accent when speaking English) and they are both hypersensitive about etiquette and being polite. LOL I had to team up with one of them to "train" the other to not feel obligated to hold doors for every student that tries to walk through a door she happens to open!

By the way, I am told that I am "bold", too. I once casually asked a friend if he has a lisp (it was faint) - and someone else laughingly scolded me that that's not the sort of thing I should ask people. But, I just didn't think it was something anyone should be embarrassed about, and that friend knew I had a lot of affection for him. Plus, I just like being a little more direct, and I have the tendency to assume that people will see my intentions aren't bad.

I think we are just seeing individual differences in personalities. This is NOT to say that I don't think Patrick Chan could benefit from a mind-mouth filter, but I think at times he is judged too harshly. Words are only a small portion of the communication a person uses, and nonverbal is said to be greater than verbal! The nonverbal tell me he is a nice guy, a little impudent perhaps, but more misunderstood than he is malicious.

You might be right. Someone just likes to be more direct than others. It could be perfectly ok in daily communications with people around you. It is not ok when every word, every setence is being put under the magnified glass, being known by millions of people who don't know him/her in person. Even the politicians and talk show hosts who do the talking for living often are caught in wording. Well, one thing I'm glad is that Chan is not just talking the talk. He is actually walking the walk.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Well, one thing I'm glad is that Chan is not just talking the talk. He is actually walking the walk.

I also try to hear what he doesn't talk about. He never begrudges his competitors' wins. His 2009 Worlds SP was underscored but he tried to hush the boos from the crowd. He defended Lysacek's Olympic win. During the SP Small Medals ceremony in Torino, when he noticed he was in the middle of the medalists' line up due to the sequence of the medal presentation, he immediately stepped back and put Daisuke in the middle. Cute and laughter rousing. It was a totally spontaneous act with due respect for Dai as the winner.

He also doesn't quarrel with his critics. He just keep bringing it. No quads? He brought them. No artistry? He's working on bring it up a notch (or 10?), not using many compliments already bestowed on him or his record smashing scores as a shield.

Keep walking the walk and bringing it, Patrick. I want to see how far you will go.

 

[let`s talk]

Somebody hasn't been around last season.

 

[Buttercup]

I also try to hear what he doesn't talk about. He never begrudges his competitors' wins. His 2009 Worlds SP was underscored but he tried to hush the boos from the crowd. He defended Lysacek's Olympic win. During the SP Small Medals ceremony in Torino, when he noticed he was in the middle of the medalists' line up due to the sequence of the medal presentation, he immediately stepped back and put Daisuke in the middle. Cute and laughter rousing. It was a totally spontaneous act with due respect for Dai as the winner.

If you want to highlight Chan's good sportsmanship, I don't see how 2009 Worlds is the event you'd want bring up. Pre and post event, he was completely out of line and sought every opportunity to trash a fellow competitor who had done nothing to him, criticizing his personality, programs, scoring, and whatever else came to mind. Lysacek wisely stayed out of that mess and let his skating do the talking. No, 2009 Worlds was probably Chan at his least sportsmanlike, and he seems to have learned from it, as well as from the events of the following season. The disappointing Olympic year may have done him a world of good - even if it was hard for him to deal with at the time, he's probably a better skater for it.

2010 Worlds, sure; the podium mishap, the press conference translation, and his comments in general showed a more mature and - at least on the surface - more likable competitor than he'd been the year before.

 

[Violet Bliss]

I wrote that Chan did not begrudge his competitor's wins.

In 2009, it might not be very diplomatic of him, but what he did was defending Jeff Buttle, whom Joubert definitely begrudged for his 2008 Worlds win. Yes, Joubert hadn't done anything to Chan but Chan never alleged that he did. He never inserted himself in the arguement or asserted his own chances against Joubert's. It was about Joubert's bitter allegations of Buttle's unworthiness as a World Champion, clearly feeling he should have been the rightful defending Champion at 2009 Worlds. Chan was deemed disrespectful to speak up against someone of Joubert's status and large fandom, but he was proven correct in saying Joubert needed to bring 3 quads to win. As it was, Chan beat Joubert like Buttle had done, without a quad. Then, he did not begrudge Lysacek's win or taunt Joubert with his own higher placement. So, all the media inflated pre-competition war of words wasn't about Chan himself and his competitions. It was Chan speaking his mind about Buttle's rightful win. He didn't hold anything personally against Joubert and the two evidently went on having a good relationship as seen on various video clips from subsequent shows and competitions. In the interview with Browning after 2010 Worlds, Chan talked about how happy he was for Joubert to have come back after the great Olympic disappointment. He said it was so good to see Joubert happy again. Any personal acrimony was blown up by fans.

The actual pre Worlds "controversy" was very good publicity for the Championships and figure skating, so was the manufactured quad controversy during the Olympics. Chan might have been cast in a negative role in these scenarios but it was good for figure skating's public profile, without the ugliness of an earlier era. OTOH, they were not nearly as effective as the episode with real villains and a beautiful ice princess. Oh, well.

I think many perceived Chan as arrogant or "bratty" because of his age and status, but his age was mostly under considerd and his status under valued. (He was the Canadian Champ and then Worlds Medalist.) These days, honesty is not a virute and truth speaking is a risky endeavor. If one considers Chan's actual words over the last few years, he has been proven right in almost all cases. Maybe he should improve his deliveries and articulation, but selfishly I hope not too much, as that would deprive me of rare and valuable opportunities to glimpse into a young super achiever's mind.

At the risk of incurring more wrath and criticism, here are two Canadian interviews now availabe on Youtube, with "motivation" being mentioned in both:

CBC's PJ Kwong at the HPC

On CTV News

eta. Re. Chan's Olympic disappointment - I have often said that in life, often what is considered the worst thing to have happened turns out to be the best in future hindsight. Chan has admitted as much concerning the Olympic debacle and we are lucky for it. I think it changed his mindset and what kind of skater he was. In his training up to the 2010, an Olympic medal, preferably the Gold, had been the goal and motivation. He was so young and had other interest and talents, so he did entertain retiring from figure skating to try something else if he achieved that, the ultimate goal. That would have been a shame and a loss to figure skating. Now, it's about the sport of figure skating, how he may push it forward, make a mark in it, and become one of the greats. Instead of a fixed goal, he now has moving targets to go further and further, to satisfy himself with the absolute quality and progress instead of just a highly recognized victory at a specific time.

Mr. Colson was looking out for him and when he did poorly at the Olympics, I figured there was a higher plan. When the Belief balloon floated down to him at the end of his Olympics gala skate, I thought the Universe had the coolest way of delivering the message to him!

 

[Buttercup]

This will be a bit lengthy as I want to clarify the context and provide necessary links (you usually ask for references, in my experience).

At 2008 Worlds, Jeffrey Buttle was 25 years old, an accomplished veteran, and he stated his case beautifully when the matter came up. For the record, I have issues with Joubert's comments but don't view them as harshly as some people - certainly I can't see any way of interpreting them as "bitter allegations". In an interview a couple of weeks post-Gotheburg he was mostly concerned with analyzing his own performance and discussing the scoring system. It's an IN interview, so I can't link to it - sorry. Look at their April 2008 archive if you're interested, and please ignore the awful headline; that it definitely not Joubert's fault. Anyway, there was certainly no need for Patrick to "defend" Jeff at 2009 Worlds, a full year later, with the matter having been left behind by those involved.

The comments that Joubert made in 2009 that set off Patrick Chan were that he prefers people to try quads but the system does not reward them enough - his standard line for years - and that he considered Evan Lysacek the most dangerous contender. The part about Evan's quad is Hersh's interpretation; hard to tell what exactly Joubert said. For these rather mellow comments, he was labelled a sore loser, a hypocrite, had his programs ridiculed - and Chan did some of it after the LP. All that goes quite beyond "not very diplomatic"; it was nasty, spiteful, and uncalled for. Joubert, it is worth noting, pretty much stayed quiet. Here are the three parts of the saga, as brought to you at the time by Phil Hersh: Joubert, pre-Worlds; Chan responds; Joubert is perplexed but diplomatic. I am especially fond of the quote by Carroll at the end of part 1, very LOLsy considering who he was coaching. At the time, some people at GS felt Skate Canada was being a bit Iago-like; there was no consensus. Now I wonder if the same can be said about Hersh's role... but I digress. I actually had no issue with Chan having an opinion I disagreed with, but his manner of expressing it did him no credit at all. I'm aware that Chan and Joubert appear to be on friendlier terms, and I did write that I believe his experiences in the past couple of years have made Chan more mature.

BTW, Chan was wrong about Joubert needing three quads to win in LA; he'd have been fine had he not tried to change his LP on the go and stayed upright on his final 2A. In which case I bet Plushenko would have won a second OGM. But it is what it is, ice is slippery etc.

Both 2008 Worlds and 2009 Worlds are well behind us, and the former is a bit of a dead horse, IMO. I'd have left the whole thing out of this thread if you hadn't brought up the latter as a situation in which Chan showed real sportsmanship, because it wasn't one of his finer moments. Patrick Chan has many worthy qualities, and there's no need to invent things to make him look even better. He was out of line in 2009. He learned from it. But it was not a shining example of sportsmanlike conduct.

I have to say, as a more general point, that if allowances are made for Chan's age, I'd like to see similar courtesy extended to athletes who might find it difficult to express themselves in English, or whose cultural background may entail an understanding of what is appropriate conduct for an athlete that doesn't necessarily fall in line with the NA concept of good sportsmanship. This is an international, multicultural sport, and it is worth keeping in mind that there isn't one approach to it that is correct.

And on that happy note, I would like to end the threadjacking. Though now that this is a general Chan thread, it's bound to derail all the time, in the tradition of skater-specific threads

I wrote that Chan did not begrudge his competitor's wins.

In 2009, it might not be very diplomatic of him, but what he did was defending Jeff Buttle, whom Joubert definitely begrudged for his 2008 Worlds win. Yes, Joubert hadn't done anything to Chan but Chan never alleged that he did. He never inserted himself in the arguement or asserted his own chances against Joubert's. It was about Joubert's bitter allegations of Buttle's unworthiness as a World Champion, clearly feeling he should have been the rightful defending Champion at 2009 Worlds. Chan was deemed disrespectful to speak up against someone of Joubert's status and large fandom, but he was proven correct in saying Joubert needed to bring 3 quads to win. As it was, Chan beat Joubert like Buttle had done, without a quad. Then, he did not begrudge Lysacek's win or taunt Joubert with his own higher placement. So, all the media inflated pre-competition war of words wasn't about Chan himself and his competitions. It was Chan speaking his mind about Buttle's rightful win. He didn't hold anything personally against Joubert and the two evidently went on having a good relationship as seen on various video clips from subsequent shows and competitions. In the interview with Browning after 2010 Worlds, Chan talked about how happy he was for Joubert to have come back after the great Olympic disappointment. He said it was so good to see Joubert happy again. Any personal acrimony was blown up by fans.

The actual pre Worlds "controversy" was very good publicity for the Championships and figure skating, so was the manufactured quad controversy during the Olympics. Chan might have been cast in a negative role in these scenarios but it was good for figure skating's public profile, without the ugliness of an earlier era. OTOH, they were not nearly as effective as the episode with real villains and a beautiful ice princess. Oh, well.

I think many perceived Chan as arrogant or "bratty" because of his age and status, but his age was mostly under considerd and his status under valued. (He was the Canadian Champ and then Worlds Medalist.) These days, honesty is not a virute and truth speaking is a risky endeavor. If one considers Chan's actual words over the last few years, he has been proven right in almost all cases. Maybe he should improve his deliveries and articulation, but selfishly I hope not too much, as that would deprive me of rare and valuable opportunities to glimpse into a young super achiever's mind.

At the risk of incurring more wrath and criticism, here are two Canadian interviews now availabe on Youtube, with "motivation" being mentioned in both:

CBC's PJ Kwong at the HPC

On CTV News

 

[Violet Bliss]

Let dead horses RIP. I seriously doubt any skater pours through the media like fans do in forming their impressions and relationships with other skaters. They interact directly and any info via media, and reaction to it, would be the most conveniently accessed and presented.

I do hope there is no impression of a double standard on my part as I have extended age and other considerations to and defended many skaters, whether or not they are my favorites, skating or personality wise. I never like young hard working talents bashed. As an example, even as Alexander Mojorov lashed out with a string of extreme explitives, my comment was: "It's a frustrated angry 19 year old lashing out with all the baddest coolest English curse words he knew. The severity and the ugly implications escaped him, I believe." However, nobody needed such considerations as much as a Patrick Chan, who would have never gotten away with a similar utterance, probably cited for the rest of his life.

 

[Buttercup]

I do hope there is no impression of a double standard on my part as I have extended age and other considerations to and defended many skaters, whether or not they are my favorites, skating or personality wise. I never like young hard working talents bashed. As an example, even as Alexander Mojorov lashed out with a string of extreme explitives, my comment was: "It's a frustrated angry 19 year old lashing out with all the baddest coolest English curse words he knew. The severity and the ugly implications escaped him, I believe." However, nobody needed such considerations as much as a Patrick Chan, who would have never gotten away with a similar utterance, probably cited for the rest of his life.

I think high-profile athletes attract more attention and more criticism, period, and Chan's among the highest profile skaters around these days (and one how's never shied from sharing his thoughts). If it had been, say, Adrian Schultheiss rather than Plushenko speaking out about the system post-Vancouver, would it have gotten as much attention? Yannick Ponsero has made similar comments to Joubert's about the quad and people not trying it - I don't recall much if any reaction.

FWIW, I agree with your take on Majorov's outburst; in case you missed it at the time, here's what he told Tony Wheeler about it afterward. However, if a native English speaker had done something similar, it would have been hard to argue that he was unaware of the severity and the implications.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Yes some people attract much more attention and dissections. If Mojorov were successful enough to have haters, there would have been at least 101 ways of damning him to hell regardless. As it was, harsh hateful people didn't bother with him but I was just demonstrating that I didn't use double standard and did extend consideration, more than I would for Patrick actually, come to think of it, and I don't mean identical situation. Maybe not about the (unintentionally used) language but the loss of control of temper. I do expect better of Patrick. Maybe there is a bit of double standard after all.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

I think high-profile athletes attract more attention and more criticism, period, and Chan's among the highest profile skaters around these days (and one how's never shied from sharing his thoughts). If it had been, say, Adrian Schultheiss rather than Plushenko speaking out about the system post-Vancouver, would it have gotten as much attention? Yannick Ponsero has made similar comments to Joubert's about the quad and people not trying it - I don't recall much if any reaction.

What comments did Ponsero make, because I'm curious to compare the two.

I have to admit I doubt I'll ever root for Majorov based solely on that outburst (yes, I'm black) regardless of cultural context.

 

[prettykeys]

The comments that Joubert made in 2009...were that he prefers people to try quads but the system does not reward them enough - his standard line for years. For these rather mellow comments, he was labelled a sore loser, a hypocrite, had his programs ridiculed.

I agree with you also. Joubert made honest comments that reflected his stance (regarding quads) consistently over the years that were blown out of proportion. I definitely understood his tone of regret as more a criticism of the judging system at the time, rather than of Buttle himself.

 

[LuCN]

I have some different opinions,let's discuss~

1、jounalists and media always make a "big mouth" or "shock head lines" to attract attention from the viewers.so they often change the tone of speaking and delete the context before and after,to make the quotes to a totally different meaning.as a chinese,I always see this kind of things about us and our country on western medias like CNN,BBC,FOX etc...(and in china many Johnny fans who are jounalist did something,don't know things in other countries

2、sometimes,what you think about a skater may not be the real person,but the "image" made by fans and media.Chan's change may not because he's matured so quickly,but he's become more famous and have more fans and may become next stars to attract public to see figure skating.so the media change their mind,and some fans change their mind too.Look at what they did with Joubert and Plushenko.maybe you already can't remember what a "bad guy" and "big mouth" their "image" were~Joubert said Plushenko and Lambiel pretend sicknees to win,abuse Candeloro,said canadian male skaters skate like a woman,said Jeffrey Buttle didn't deserve to win,etc....Plushenko was blamed by nearly all the forum and specialists for his 06 Olympics performance and programs,and what he said when he compete with Yagudin ~~and now,they become a "good guy" with "great sportsmanship",quite intesting )

3、for fans,whatever you said and did,if your scores or frame or something may be over their idol,they'll attack you.whatever you did and say.that's life.fair discuss between fans never exist JIMO

 

[Olympia]

What comments did Ponsero make, because I'm curious to compare the two.

I have to admit I doubt I'll ever root for Majorov based solely on that outburst (yes, I'm black) regardless of cultural context.

Now I'm afraid to link to what Majorov said, after your reaction, Pogue. Even just hearing about it is making me uneasy. Whom was he addressing at the time? Was he actually cursing out someone standing right in front of him? Ugh.

It's threads like these that make me grateful I'm a complete nonentity out in the world. Imagine having a camera on when one says something boneheaded, even if it's not meant in malice. Just last Monday I had a crappy day at the office and went into meltdown mode for just long enough (about ten minutes--seemed like forever looking back on it) where I was totally disgusted at myself. I didn't yell at anyone (thank God) or cuss, but I still felt so bad that I'd had an agitated moment in front of co-workers. If a camera had been on me at the time...I shudder to think.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

The Swedish skating federation after not being selected to go to Euros. It was just a statement on Facebook that he retracted within twenty minutes, but the media got a hold of it. In this specific example, cultural context (both mine and his) has a role in my response, to be honest.

 

[Olympia]

Ah. Thanks, Pogue. I understand where you're coming from. I've had similar reactions for different cultural reasons.

One of the things that we forget about this wonderful world with its porous borders is how new many of us still are at this global village thing. People say what has always been said, but now it's said with a much wider audience, which leads to complications. Plus now there are so many electronic venues where one can shoot off one's mouth and be heard around the world before one comes to one's senses and regrets it. Modern life isn't for the faint of heart, that's for sure!

 

[Buttercup]

sometimes,what you think about a skater may not be the real person,but the "image" made by fans and media.Chan's change may not because he's matured so quickly,but he's become more famous and have more fans and may become next stars to attract public to see figure skating.so the media change their mind,and some fans change their mind too.Look at what they did with Joubert and Plushenko.maybe you already can't remember what a "bad guy" and "big mouth" their "image" were~Joubert said Plushenko and Lambiel pretend sicknees to win,abuse Candeloro,said canadian male skaters skate like a woman,said Jeffrey Buttle didn't deserve to win,etc....Plushenko was blamed by nearly all the forum and specialists for his 06 Olympics performance and programs,and what he said when he compete with Yagudin ~~and now,they become a "good guy" with "great sportsmanship",quite intesting )

This ongoing thread drift is unfortunate, and really, there's a Joubert thread where one can discuss him. But I do want to point out that at least some of what you wrote is unsubstantiated allegations, such as the story that Joubert said that Canadian men skate like women. Something similar to that was indeed published in one French website. IIRC, it was not a serious news site and the story was never picked up or expanded upon anywhere else. If you think the French media would ignore such an inflammatory statement, well, I find that unrealistic. I also find such comments very out of character, and if you read some of Joubert's old interviews on GS, you might be surprised to see who he names as skaters he admires. Naturally, there were people in the Canadian media who did report this as fact, because for some, ever since 2008, anything bad about Joubert must be true. Case in point: at the 2010 Olympics, there were reports that Joubert said the venue was not impressive, and of course he was criticized for being so rude. The only thing is, the word he used also meant that the venue was not intimidating - which considering his Olympic past makes much more sense (In SLC there were very high walls around the ice, and I've read that many skaters found it quite uncomfortable).

To bring this back to Chan - like Brian, Patrick has a record of making very strong statements, and I'd certainly find it easy to believe that he's been outspoken again. But it would have to be a reputable source, and I would be suspicious if the comments were out of character - e.g. I'd be willing to believe he'd criticize the content of someone's program (which other skaters have also done at times regarding competitors) but not that he'd make comments similar to Majorov's.