Point Changes You Like See Next Year

[Medusa]

What I would love to see (despite from less rules) is a more understandable evaluation of spins. I absolutely don't understand how someone can practically fall out off a spin, wobble like a drunken sailor, lose the balance completely while changing the edge, travel about 2 meters on the ice - without getting a deduction!

The only skater who gets a deduction for his spins on a regular basis is vdPerren (well, and he deserves that deduction).
But there are several examples from this season where the spin was really really messed up (Nagasu at Junior Worlds, Lysacek at Nationals, Lysacek at 4CC, Miki Ando several times, Takahashi, Kostner...) - but the skaters aren't punished for it! Is it like forbidden to give negative GOE for a spin if the skater's name isn't vdPerren?

Same goes of spirals. What do you have to do to get negative GOE on your spiral (except for falling)? There are so many girls who have trouble getting into the position (Kostner at this Worlds), wobble and shake all the way through the spiral (Ando) or are not really moving (is a spiral still a spiral if you manage to cover 2 meters in the required 3 seconds for one position?) - but the negative GOEs appear practically never.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Poor Kevin. He is soooo underscored when he skates his best as he did in Gotenborg. It's as if the judges are scoring him with personal scorn.

There are other skaters and teams which are consistently underscored. Sad!

Joe

 

[gkelly]

What I would love to see (despite from less rules) is a more understandable evaluation of spins. I absolutely don't understand how someone can practically fall out off a spin, wobble like a drunken sailor, lose the balance completely while changing the edge, travel about 2 meters on the ice - without getting a deduction!

Examples?

I often see spins that start out fast with good centering and/or good positions and I'm thinking they could earn +1 or possibly +2, and then they lose the center or there's an awkward change of position or a wobble on the change of edge or an unattractive position or they slow down considerably (e.g., when moving from layback to Biellmann position), so then the weak points of the spin start to cancel out the good points and I think they should deserve 0 or -1 after all.

If you're busy nitpicking the weak points and ignoring the strong points, you may think they deserve -2 or -3, but that would fail to reward them for the good stuff. Look at some spins that really did earn -2 and -3 and compare to the ones you had problems with.

Look at the short program protocols for the skaters who didn't make top 24 at Worlds. Quite a few spins with negative GOE there, including a couple that had mostly -2, and at least one in each the women's and the men's SPs that didn't count at all. Then go see if you can find video of those programs for visual examples of bad spins.

Same goes of spirals. What do you have to do to get negative GOE on your spiral (except for falling)? There are so many girls who have trouble getting into the position (Kostner at this Worlds), wobble and shake all the way through the spiral (Ando) or are not really moving (is a spiral still a spiral if you manage to cover 2 meters in the required 3 seconds for one position?) - but the negative GOEs appear practically never.

Some of the mistakes, such as not holding all the positions long enough, would have more of an effect on what level gets called than on the grade of execution. Especially in the long program where only two 3-second positions are required but three count toward the level. (In the short, if three aren't held there needs to be a reduction in the GOE but that could be a reduction from +2 to +1 if the positions and edges are both good, or from +1 to 0.)

There were a lot of negative GOEs on spiral sequences in the lower half of the field in the ladies' short program at Four Continents, for example. I actually did watch both that event and the ladies' SPs from Worlds on ESPN360, but I can't say offhand whether the spirals were performed better on average at Worlds or whether the 4Cs judges were just pickier.

How much bad and mediocre skating have you watched? If you're only watching the elites, what looks bad to you compared to the best spins and spiral sequences in the world might look pretty good compared to the majority of skaters that the judges get to see all year.

 

[gio]

Oh, I don't knoiw about that. Why wouldn't someone try a 3Lo+3F sequence and get 11.5 points instead of 7 points for 2A+2A? (Part of the deal is no 20% deduction for the sequence.)
Again, you wouln't be required to do anything at all.
As an extra bonus, maybe this would get rid of some of those triple sometting/double toe/double loop combos that come to a complete stop.

ITA, the triple something/2T/2L are sometimes unwatchable, completely out of music and they do stop the flow. Doing a sequence instead would be great.
Why someone would do a 2A/2A, when can get 12.5 points with a great 3Z/3F sequence .

 

[gkelly]

Why someone would do a 2A/2A, when can get 12.5 points with a great 3Z/3F sequence .

Because it's a lot harder to do a 3Z/3F sequence successfully at all, let alone a great one?

I'm all for removing the 80% multiplier and maybe even giving a bonus to the base mark of the last jump in the sequence (provided that the last jump in a true combo gets a larger bonus). If that were the case, there would be a lot more incentive for skaters to develop skills to do -half loop-triple flip sequences.

But it's still going to be easier to do a -tap toe-double axel sequence. I.e., more chance of pulling it off successfully and earning positive GOE. Not much point in attempting a harder sequence if your best effort is likely to earn -2 or -3 and it might get downgraded as well.

 

[gio]

Because it's a lot harder to do a 3Z/3F sequence successfully at all, let alone a great one?

I'm all for removing the 80% multiplier and maybe even giving a bonus to the base mark of the last jump in the sequence (provided that the last jump in a true combo gets a larger bonus). If that were the case, there would be a lot more incentive for skaters to develop skills to do -half loop-triple flip sequences.

But it's still going to be easier to do a -tap toe-double axel sequence. I.e., more chance of pulling it off successfully and earning positive GOE. Not much point in attempting a harder sequence if your best effort is likely to earn -2 or -3 and it might get downgraded as well.

I agree with you, but I think skaters with good 3F such as Mao, Yu Na, Kostner may be able to surprise us with a difficult sequence if incentivated to do so.

 

[ciroc83]

Back to evaluating a good spiral by how deep and steady an edge is… rather than just how high you can get your free leg... I blame that Sasha for this. Hahaha jk, kinda.

 

[blue dog]

I want the ISU to stop giving any credit for severe UR, two foot, or hand down on any jump. If pairs or dance teams UR a lift or fail to count the right amount of seconds, they get no credit for the lift. Singles skaters should not be cut any slack in this department. The same with falls on quads. No credit if they fall. Period. Even if they fully rotate the quad.

We may not have world records, or personal bests for a while, but what are records if the performance was not clean?

 

[StickyFumblings]

With Kostner's LP in mind, I would like to see hand downs, step-outs, and turn outs receive a -1.00 neutral deduction, while falls should receive a -2.00 deduction. 1998 was the last time that a Ladies world champion won with a fall.

In the SP, any mistake on a required element should be a -3.00 neutral deduction.

 

[Kinga]

I agree with the layback spins comment - and let me add camel-donut spins too! Those contortionist positions that garner higher levels on both the layback and the camel spin -- are not an athletic achievement but rather an innate physical ability. Sure some skaters can stretch the crap out of themselves and achieve a someone modest biellmann or donut....but the majority of skaters just aren't built that way and no amount of flexibility exercises will give them a Level 4 camel or layback....just like the charlotte spiral or needle spin.

Should we be awarding levels and points based on natural ability or completion of set requirements?

Well, then I could say the same about jump abilities - some ladies are saltatory and therefore are able to jump 3-3, but some will never be able to jump that high to execute 3-3, no matter how hard they train. Still, 3-3 is greatly appreciated and without it you can forget (or almost forget) the medal at Worlds. So, if jumping natural abilities are appreciated, then why flexibility should not be appreciated? It adds to this sport. Of course, the flexible moves should be executed properly, in esthetic way. Sasha Cohen was flexible and was exposing her abilities in a nice way. Nowdays, we can see flexibility exposed in a horrible way, underdone, wobbling positions, low speed, etc. So good quality flexibility should be discerned from bad one.

Or, lets take it completely opposite direction - lets forget about natural jumping and flexibility abilites. 3-3 becomes not that important, and so is streching, and well balanced programmes, whole package programmes that bring the house down, with a decent technical content (3-2 combos, few 3 jumps, good fast spins and steps) are the winners!! (of course, if you are able to do 3-3 and you are artistically better than rest of the field - then it is your bonus). In this way, Sarah Meier, Yukari Nakano and Finnish ladies could medal at worlds. I am pro!!

 

[Spun Silver]

What I would love to see (despite from less rules) is a more understandable evaluation of spins. I absolutely don't understand how someone can practically fall out off a spin, wobble like a drunken sailor, lose the balance completely while changing the edge, travel about 2 meters on the ice - without getting a deduction!

The only skater who gets a deduction for his spins on a regular basis is vdPerren (well, and he deserves that deduction).
But there are several examples from this season where the spin was really really messed up (Nagasu at Junior Worlds, Lysacek at Nationals, Lysacek at 4CC, Miki Ando several times, Takahashi, Kostner...) - but the skaters aren't punished for it! Is it like forbidden to give negative GOE for a spin if the skater's name isn't vdPerren?

Same goes of spirals. What do you have to do to get negative GOE on your spiral (except for falling)? There are so many girls who have trouble getting into the position (Kostner at this Worlds), wobble and shake all the way through the spiral (Ando) or are not really moving (is a spiral still a spiral if you manage to cover 2 meters in the required 3 seconds for one position?) - but the negative GOEs appear practically never.

To a non-skating enthusiast, these are great points. I want to see fewer lumpy spins where the skater crams in one position after another till the speed slows further and further down. Isn't a certain speed integral to the idea of spinning? And fewer bad spirals. Spirals are about beauty - if the skater can't do them beautifully, I'd rather see her do something else. Spirals should be optional, IMO - or at least somewhat more so.

 

[MasterB]

I would like the quad to be worth way more than it currently is. It took men many decades to achieve this feat only to have it value a little more than a triple.

Spins
On alternating years one spin (classical sit, camel, scratch, or layback) should be performed in it's original design.

 

[Bennett]

I wish that the PCS would be given more according to the skate in the event in question:

- a skater might have one or two falls, but still she/he should be given good PCS scores if they are deserved

- a skater with reputation should not be held up by PCS scores, if they are not deserved (so many times a skater gets good scores e.g. for transitions in cases where there practically are none, LOL).

ITA. PCS is just a meaningless blackbox. If they don't use the criteria, then abandon them and just have one "overall impression" score. If they use the criteria, then stick to them and use them discriminately.

Since so many ppl complained about Caro's FS at worlds, Lambiel's LP at GPF and Mao's SP at GPF, I would like to see that the types of mistakes they made (i.e., sloppy landing) be penalized more severely.

I also don't like to see UR penalized doubly.

Despite badly phrased and expressed at a wrong context, I would agree with Joubert about the quad being under-rewarded so is 3A. I think it a good idea to reward a cleanly excuted quad or 3A more points because they are so difficult. But I don't think that they should reward the failed attempt more than they do now. A fall is a fall.

I also heartily agree with Jeff about "everything is skating." Please reward transitions, choreos, and interpretations more adequately. If it's difficult for them, a second panel would be good.

I also would like to see inna bauers and eagles earning points.

I feel that the judges on spirals are a bit strange. Beautiful positions are not adequately rewarded. Three second rule looks rather stupid. I think it fine to hold 2-2.5 seconds as long as the edges are good.

 

[silver.blades]

I really hope that the quad dosn't get a higher base value, if it does then 1 jump will dominate the sport. Someone suggested that the GOEs of the quad be raised and I think that's a good idea, same with the 3A. I would also like to see level 3/4 footwork/spins earn more points and the painful spins that almost grind to a halt lose levels, or at least take a large GOE hit. Skaters like Lambiel, Jeff and Zhang should be more rewarded for their fast, centred spins, because not enough respect is given for how difficult spins are, if they were so easy, more people would have amazing spins and the skaters that have amazing spins should be recognized for them.

 

[Bennett]

I really hope that the quad dosn't get a higher base value, if it does then 1 jump will dominate the sport. Someone suggested that the GOEs of the quad be raised and I think that's a good idea, same with the 3A. I would also like to see level 3/4 footwork/spins earn more points and the painful spins that almost grind to a halt lose levels, or at least take a large GOE hit. Skaters like Lambiel, Jeff and Zhang should be more rewarded for their fast, centred spins, because not enough respect is given for how difficult spins are, if they were so easy, more people would have amazing spins and the skaters that have amazing spins should be recognized for them.

I agree. Spins should be more rewarded. Mirai and Caroline have absolutely amazing spins (I am not talking about the flexibility but the speed and centering). They should be more rewarded. Although Mao and Yuna also have great pins, theirs are not compalable to the former two girls.

The same for Lambiel and Jeff. Jeff's spins are so unique, precise, and beautiful. Lambiel's spins are simply amazing but they are not well translated into the marks, which judges may try to reflect in PCS though (and I don't like this kind of carry-over effect). With all my love and respect for Daisuke, I don't think he should be considered an all-round skater unless he addresses his spins. Somehow he manages to get the highest levels, which don't give amazing spinners like Lambiel much deserving advantage.

I also would like to see steps rewarded more so that we could see a difference in point between the skater with great steps and the one with worse steps. Now we see a too slim margin. That's a shame.