Polina Edmunds World Championship prospects post 4CC.

[Amei]

And those who claim that the Russia is 20-30 points better, do you really believes that they ability is that much apart? I think Liza higher tes than anyone else is justified, but do you really truly believe that Liza and Elena deserve that high PCS?

Well it doesn't really matter what fans think... (probably going to regret using this example, but here I go): fans can think till the end of days that Yuna won OG in Sochi, but she doesn't have the record or the medal - Adelina does, she is the gold medalist.

 

[Scott512]

Why Polina? Why? Don't disrespect the Russian girls who are way above you. She wouldn't even make the Russian top 6 if Adelina was healthy and Yulia wasn't burnt out. I know she didn't say anything really terrible but she is putting the pressure on herself to deliver at worlds against much better skaters than her and that's unwise if you ask me. I like Polina she is a young 16 for women's figure skating and she has some potential. But she is far below the top Russians which will be proven at worlds unless she comes up with a major surprise and skates out of her mind like we saw in Sochi a year ago.

What puzzles me most is what the heck has happened to Gracie? With Adelina injured and perhaps done and with Yulia a mess this year and Asada, Kim and Kostner retired this should have been Gold's year to breakthrough. She may have lost her mental toughness. Poor kid. She is in a tough sport and only the tough survive. My favorite Sasha Cohen was so beautiful on the ice and as hard as she worked she never had the mental toughness to make it to the very top. Mental toughness is important. Gracie doesn't have it. Does Yulia still have it? Adelina too? I have my doubts. Polina is only 16 and if she has real mental toughness it will greatly benefit her career. She talked tough about the Russians are coming and she isn't flinching. Ooh tough talk. Now we will find out. Good luck Polina.

 

[Lipea]

And those who claim that the Russia is 20-30 points better, do you really believes that they ability is that much apart? I think Liza higher tes than anyone else is justified, but do you really truly believe that Liza and Elena deserve that high PCS?

So what do you believe in? That dirty Russia bought the judges of ISU so all of them would give higher PCS to two particular skaters Elena Radionova and Elizaveta Tuktamysheva (while ignoring Pogorilaya and badly punishing Lipnitskaia for arguably wrong edge)? And what do you mean by "abilities"? Noone cares about what someone COULD do, but what he/she actually does; and the abilities makes too little of the difference for a great final result.

The reason they get high PCS was explained many times if you read earlier comments. 1. The PCS obviously grow throughout the season as a skater consistently shows clean skate, 2. the PCS is always higher in the last group, as it represents higher ISU rank skaters/or top ones of SP, 3. The PCS reflect TES. 4. Both Liza and Lena didn't give any reason for NOT giving them such PCS (like skating slow, or unemotional, or not connecting with the music, with the audience, etc.).

For example, after the incredible 2013-2014 season Yulia started new season at CoC. Her SP had better PCS than Liza's, although both were clean and had the same difficulty, but Yulia already built up her PCS last season. Then even after terrible LP in CoC Yulia's PCS scores were still very high. However as she was loosing her reputation her PCS (relatively to TES) were getting lower, and then judges also became more picky to her technique.

If Polina would be as consistent throughout the season as Lena and Liza, her scores would be on the same level.
However, I definitely understand what she means by saying "we all have the same elements and it is all about the performance". Yes, technically she can do generally all the same things they do, but it goes down to particular performances that make this big difference. The consistency requires a lot of physical and mental strength and is one of the main aspects of the athleticism.
But there is really nothing arrogant in her words. As someone great said: "Don't be modest; you are not that great". She is not that great yet to pretend she is modest.

 

[Plisskin]

But is not an insult nor direspect, is a confidence stament that even her or Satoko and Hongo who were there in the conference would made.

Now I wonder, If the Americans or Japanese were ruling the skating competitions right now and Elena, Liza or Yulia were to made the same stament how it will be recieved by the Russian public?

Similar situations have happened with Russian skaters (like Plushenko) and they have no issues when their skaters talk smack. 9 times out of 10 they will agree with them. To be honest, I'd hardly call what Polina said as smack anyway. FS fans are just very sensitive and dramatic and turned her little comment into more than what it was.

 

[shine]

So what do you believe in? That dirty Russia bought the judges of ISU so all of them would give higher PCS to two particular skaters Elena Radionova and Elizaveta Tuktamysheva (while ignoring Pogorilaya and badly punishing Lipnitskaia for arguably wrong edge)? And what do you mean by "abilities"? Noone cares about what someone COULD do, but what he/she actually does; and the abilities makes too little of the difference for a great final result.

The reason they get high PCS was explained many times if you read earlier comments. 1. The PCS obviously grow throughout the season as a skater consistently shows clean skate, 2. the PCS is always higher in the last group, as it represents higher ISU rank skaters/or top ones of SP, 3. The PCS reflect TES. 4. Both Liza and Lena didn't give any reason for NOT giving them such PCS (like skating slow, or unemotional, or not connecting with the music, with the audience, etc.).

For example, after the incredible 2014-2015 season Yulia started new season at CoC. Her SP had better PCS than Liza's, although both were clean and had the same difficulty, but Yulia already built up her PCS last season. Then even after terrible LP in CoC Yulia's PCS scores were still very high. However as she was loosing her reputation her PCS (relatively to TES) were getting lower, and then judges also became more picky to her technique.

If Polina would be as consistent throughout the season as Lena and Liza, her scores would be on the same level.
However, I definitely understand what she means by saying "we all have the same elements and it is all about the performance". Yes, technically she can do generally all the same things they do, but it goes down to particular performances that make this big difference. The consistency requires a lot of physical and mental strength and is one of the main aspects of the athleticism.
But there is really nothing arrogant in her words. As someone great said: "Don't be modest; you are not that great". She is not that great yet to pretend she is modest.

Who is even remotely suggesting that? Dramatic much?

And ironically, the first 3 explanations you gave--suppose they are true--as to why Elena and Liza have been receiving high PCS EXACTLY highlight how incorrectly PCS has been used and how far it has deviated from the scoring system's original intent. Imagine a world where an audience / judges have never seen any of these skaters skate before and know nothing about their past history, and you play each of their season's best performance one after the other. Somehow, I have a hard time believing that any of these performances would be scored 20 points apart from each other.

But really, I personally don't want to focus on discussing whether Polina will be world champion or what her chances of medaling at Worlds are. I don't really care, at least not yet. A medal would be nice, but for now, I care more about her constant growth and improvement as a skater. However, what urged me to respond to this thread is not whether she will win or medal, but the strong sense that somehow she is deemed such an unworthy contender and far below the Russian ladies, because in terms of pure ability, I don't think she's so far behind, and is actually ahead in some aspects. Sure, she has not been consistent this year, but that really should be a moot point in scoring if she puts out two clean skates the next time she competes.

 

[knghcm]

Who is even remotely suggesting that? Dramatic much?

And ironically, the first 3 explanations you gave--suppose they are true--as to why Elena and Liza have been receiving high PCS EXACTLY highlight how incorrectly PCS has been used and how far it has deviated from the scoring system's original intent. Imagine a world where an audience / judges have never seen any of these skaters skate before and know nothing about their past history, and you play each of their season's best performance one after the other. Somehow, I have a hard time believing that any of these performances would be scored 20 points apart from each other.

But really, I personally don't want to focus on discussing whether Polina will be world champion or what her chances of medaling at Worlds are. I don't really care, at least not yet. A medal would be nice, but for now, I care more about her constant growth and improvement as a skater. However, what urged me to respond to this thread is not whether she will win or medal, but the strong sense that somehow she is deemed such an unworthy contender and far below the Russian ladies, because in terms of pure ability, I don't think she's so far behind, and is actually ahead in some aspects. Sure, she has not been consistent this year, but that really should be a moot point in scoring if she puts out two clean skates the next time she competes.

Cosigned. I've never heard of a more pathetic apologist than that.

 

[DexterK]

Who is even remotely suggesting that? Dramatic much?

And ironically, the first 3 explanations you gave--suppose they are true--as to why Elena and Liza have been receiving high PCS EXACTLY highlight how incorrectly PCS has been used and how far it has deviated from the scoring system's original intent. Imagine a world where an audience / judges have never seen any of these skaters skate before and know nothing about their past history, and you play each of their season's best performance one after the other. Somehow, I have a hard time believing that any of these performances would be scored 20 points apart from each other.

But really, I personally don't want to focus on discussing whether Polina will be world champion or what her chances of medaling at Worlds are. I don't really care, at least not yet. A medal would be nice, but for now, I care more about her constant growth and improvement as a skater. However, what urged me to respond to this thread is not whether she will win or medal, but the strong sense that somehow she is deemed such an unworthy contender and far below the Russian ladies, because in terms of pure ability, I don't think she's so far behind, and is actually ahead in some aspects. Sure, she has not been consistent this year, but that really should be a moot point in scoring if she puts out two clean skates the next time she competes.

Well said.

PCS should not be based on consistency.

 

[Lipea]

Who is even remotely suggesting that? Dramatic much?

I am not being dramatic. There was basically a straight claim that Elena and Elizaveta don't deserve their PCS. I find it to be offensive towards those girls and their teams achievements, because undeserving simply implies corrupted or dishonest. Whatever the rules are and how judges interpret them they do it the same way to all the skaters (unless it is Olympics). One either play by those rules or complain on being underscored.

And ironically, the first 3 explanations you gave--suppose they are true--as to why Elena and Liza have been receiving high PCS EXACTLY highlight how incorrectly PCS has been used and how far it has deviated from the scoring system's original intent. Imagine a world where an audience / judges have never seen any of these skaters skate before and know nothing about their past history, and you play each of their season's best performance one after the other. Somehow, I have a hard time believing that any of these performances would be scored 20 points apart from each other.

I made my points from observing how it works in practice. Yes, it does not make much sense with the way the system is described and the way it actually being interpreted, but that's what it is and all the skaters know it. From PCS side, in actuality, nothing really changed since 6.0 system.
However I see one strong reason in it being the way it is, that you seem not want to acknowledge. The fact that consistency and the consistent hardest work is indeed one of the most important factors of true sportsmanship - that's what the system appreciates, and I think it is very fair. And if the judges would not know anything about the competitor, as you suggest, and would not care about the reputation and consistency, we would have even more one-time champions like Hughes or Sotnikova, and miss those who develop themselves significantly over longer period of time like Arakawa, Kostner or Mao, or those who made their input being a strong competitor for long time like Slutskaya or Kwan.

Almost at every competition we see "the performance of the night". However, it is to be consistent in doing your best - the hardest thing to achieve, and to not support it would be completely wrong. That's also why there is SP and LP - to check the skater's strength. Therefore, both Liza and Lena deserved their scores absolutely correct. They played by the hard rules of the game and succeed the most in the current season. Or if it would be easy, why others could not be as consistent?

 

[kwanatic]

Well said.

PCS should not be based on consistency.

But they are and have been for a while. It's a well-known fact that PCS are used as placeholder scores. It's a mark that you have to earn initially and once you get it, as long as you're at the top, you continue to receive it regardless of whether or not you deserve it. Once you get in that range, that's where all of your marks stay. Of course, if you start to fall off the judges will drop you...but if you continue to skate well (like Elena and Liza T have been doing all season), those scores will increase or at least stay among the top few in the field.

It's not right. Skaters should be judged by what they do on the ice at that particular competition; not what they did at a competition last month or last year. BUT, that's the way it is. It's frustrating and upsetting b/c it's very rare that the scores the judges give truly reflect what just happened on the ice.

 

[Lipea]

But they are and have been for a while. It's a well-known fact that PCS are used as placeholder scores. It's a mark that you have to earn initially and once you get it, as long as you're at the top, you continue to receive it regardless of whether or not you deserve it. Once you get in that range, that's where all of your marks stay. Of course, if you start to fall off the judges will drop you...but if you continue to skate well (like Elena and Liza T have been doing all season), those scores will increase or at least stay among the top few in the field.

It's not right. Skaters should be judged by what they do on the ice at that particular competition; not what they did at a competition last month or last year. BUT, that's the way it is. It's frustrating and upsetting b/c it's very rare that the scores the judges give truly reflect what just happened on the ice.

But it also stimulate us to be more attentive, dedicated, long-term fans

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Maybe if Polina would rock this grown up look then people would think she was more mature

Spicy!!

 

[TontoK]

This premature coronation of the Russian girls is starting to remind me of buildup to the WC a year before Sochi, when there were such high expectations of the Russian girls and much discussion/angst of which three among the vast Russian stable would make it to the Olympics.

Instead, the Russians had a so-so competition (in relation to expectations) and only skated well enough to earn 2 spots.

Now, I'm not predicting that... but it seems to be accepted as a given that these two will fight it out for the top spots, that a sweep is likely... and most annoying of all... that any competition in which this does not happen will be a "bad" competition crowning a "lucky" or "undeserving" winner.

I hope everyone brings their "A" game, and that the skater who delivers the best program in the heat of the competition wins.

Other than that, I don't particularly care if it is Polina, or one of the Russians, or an Asian girl... or the skater from Timbuktu.

 

[cruzceleste]

Maybe if Polina would rock this grown up look then people would think she was more mature

Spicy!!

Oh my...

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

But they are and have been for a while. It's a well-known fact that PCS are used as placeholder scores. It's a mark that you have to earn initially and once you get it, as long as you're at the top, you continue to receive it regardless of whether or not you deserve it. Once you get in that range, that's where all of your marks stay. Of course, if you start to fall off the judges will drop you...but if you continue to skate well (like Elena and Liza T have been doing all season), those scores will increase or at least stay among the top few in the field.

It's not right. Skaters should be judged by what they do on the ice at that particular competition; not what they did at a competition last month or last year. BUT, that's the way it is. It's frustrating and upsetting b/c it's very rare that the scores the judges give truly reflect what just happened on the ice.

This was the case under 6.0 as well. Surya Bonaly, for example, consistently received 5.8's for presentation when she skated well during her peak (1994-1995). A few years later when she struggled after her injury scoring even as high as 5.5 was rare for her.

 

[xabia]

Yeah, and Ashley wasn't at 4CC either, plus I doubt Gracie will bomb as badly at Worlds (if she bombs at all).

Yeah, but if Gracie skates just ok she'll get astronomical marks which might give her bronze - failing that, fourth or even fifth if she's lucky.

 

[witcher]

But there is really nothing arrogant in her words.

Agreed, there is no need to be so protective about Russian ladies, I doubt they care or even read those interviews anyways. They just step on the ice and crush people.

Polina had apparently lost touch with reality for a moment, let her imagination run wild, what is completely understandable for ambitious 16yo after winning her first international competition.
No need to scold the girl - after all, as Lauren Bacall once said, "imagination is the highest kite one can fly".

 

[Jammers]

Yeah, but if Gracie skates just ok she'll get astronomical marks which might give her bronze - failing that, fourth or even fifth if she's lucky.

Gracie will not get a bronze if she just skates okay unless Ashley and others like Pogo make mistakes also. It's because Gracie usually doesn't skate better then okay why she hasn't won more medals and competitions.

 

[Sandpiper]

This premature coronation of the Russian girls is starting to remind me of buildup to the WC a year before Sochi, when there were such high expectations of the Russian girls and much discussion/angst of which three among the vast Russian stable would make it to the Olympics.

Instead, the Russians had a so-so competition (in relation to expectations) and only skated well enough to earn 2 spots.

Now, I'm not predicting that... but it seems to be accepted as a given that these two will fight it out for the top spots, that a sweep is likely... and most annoying of all... that any competition in which this does not happen will be a "bad" competition crowning a "lucky" or "undeserving" winner.

I hope everyone brings their "A" game, and that the skater who delivers the best program in the heat of the competition wins.

Other than that, I don't particularly care if it is Polina, or one of the Russians, or an Asian girl... or the skater from Timbuktu.

If everyone brings their A-game, Polina will not win. Fact. It would take a very very bad event for her to win. Not mistakes just from the evil Russians--huge mistakes from Ashley and Gracie, probably mistakes from Satoko as well.

That being said... I think there's one poster predicting a Russian sweep. Who are all these imaginary people prematurely crowning the Russians? That was a thing at the start of the season, before Adelina got injured and Yulia had her meltdown. Most seem to expect one of Ashley/Gracie/Polina on the podium. I guess if I were Japanese, I should be protesting the premature American hype.

 

[Amei]

This premature coronation of the Russian girls is starting to remind me of buildup to the WC a year before Sochi, when there were such high expectations of the Russian girls and much discussion/angst of which three among the vast Russian stable would make it to the Olympics.

Instead, the Russians had a so-so competition (in relation to expectations) and only skated well enough to earn 2 spots.

Now, I'm not predicting that... but it seems to be accepted as a given that these two will fight it out for the top spots, that a sweep is likely... and most annoying of all... that any competition in which this does not happen will be a "bad" competition crowning a "lucky" or "undeserving" winner.

I hope everyone brings their "A" game, and that the skater who delivers the best program in the heat of the competition wins.

Other than that, I don't particularly care if it is Polina, or one of the Russians, or an Asian girl... or the skater from Timbuktu.

I don't think there is anyone saying it most definitely is going to be Russian sweep - nor do I think it would be crazy for anyone to say the top spot is most likely going to be a Russian, they have won or been on the podium at most of the competitions this season.

I think it's safe to say most people expect it to be a Russian.

 

[LRK]

Why people predict a Russian win? Because so far this season, the only person to have beaten Liza is Elena - and the only person to have beaten Elena is Liza. Not just once, in some fluke outcome, but several times. That's why.

That said, of course, things could happen - and someone else end up the winner instead. It's not a certainty. But if you wish to discuss likelihood... (shrug)

People could always take solace in thinking that it might be time for Elena to falter sometime, and Liza going for the 3A... and so on. Whatever makes anyone happy, I suppose...