Protocols! Who Was Downgraded? Who Flutzed or Lipped?

[oleada]

Caroline's edging is also below par when compared to Rachael, Ashley, Mirai and Kimmie. I think this is quite noticeable when you see them skate back to back. Bebe also had more power and skated her short program very well after her initial mistake, while Caroline was slow and uninspired throughout (and her double axel is just ugly, period. I can't believe she landed that). Additionally, Rachael and Ashley (and Mirai after her fall in the FS) really and honestly felt their music, while imo Caroline didn't. Also, Caroline skated earlier, which is bad luck for her.

Caroline might have gotten higher PCS at JW for several reasons: she was at the time, more polished than Ashley and Mirai, skated without errors (unlike the SP at Nationals), was more well known than either of them. But both Ashley and Mirai have improved a lot since (and Caroline has, as well). One year is a lot of a Junior Skater.

Again, I see no reason to think that the USFS is holding Caroline down. And to state that she won the FS is just ridiculous.

Rachael has beaten Caroline before, when she won the silver in Junior Ladies. To say that you should beat someone just because you've always beaten them, is denying a skater's ability to improve, have a great skate, or melt down.

 

[ChrisH]

... perhaps I've voiced most strongly the opinion that Mirai should've gotten more downgrades on her jumps in the LP.

I AM curious about this last point, to me, several of her jumps, aside from the 3-3, should've been downgraded, including some doubles. The replays they showed at the end of the NBC broadcast gave me additional reasons to believe this. What are other people's opinions?:

Mirai's last 2Lo could've been downgraded (I thought it was ~105 degrees short). However, I would rather a couple of the other ladies received downgrades and edge calls before thinking of giving Mirai another downgrade. I thought that Rachael's 2nd 3F was ~120 degrees short and her 2nd 3Lz was ~20 degrees (!) on an inside edge. Ashley also deserved at least one flutz call. What should've been lower was not Mirai's TES, IMO, but her PCS. Besides National's inflation, Mirai was emotionless for most of her skate (due to nerves). The judges hit Caroline for that in the SP but not Mirai in the FS.

In any case, I'm really happy that Caroline has decided to go back to JW. That she decided to go, and with such swiftness, makes me believe me that she's willing to work hard, come back, and fight to defend her crown. I hope she skates lights out, and put together two stunning programs! :rock

Another reason she should go is to continue the habit of competiting in February/March with an eye on the 2010 Olympics.

 

[GoldMedalist]

Besides National's inflation, Mirai was emotionless for most of her skate (due to nerves). The judges hit Caroline for that in the SP but not Mirai in the FS.

Mirai was a bit tight in her FS but she still had better speed, basic stroking, choreography, and natural relation to the music than Caroline in her SP.

IMO.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Caroline (in the SP), Rachael and Ashley (in SP + LP) not getting dinged for their flutzes is pretty ridiculous and imo, it does them a disservice in the long run.

I'm not sure if this statement is true or not, nor do I care, because I am no longer interested in Wrong Edge Take Offs. The penalty shows up in a little score as a -1 in the GoEs, but more often than not it is wiped away because the other parts of the jumps were done satisfactorily. Anyway it is not a heavy deduction.

So rock on Flutzers, you have nothing to lose.

Joe

 

[purplecat]

Regarding Mirai's expression or lack of expression in the freeskate. In my opinion it was by design because she was portraying a doll. Everytime I've seen her do that program she's had that same lack of expression on her face and everytime I've seen her do her short she's had the big smile. I think she should've had more expression too, but I think she feels she should look like a doll. This is just my own guess, never heard her say anything about it.

 

[ChrisH]

There was consensus here that the GoEs for quads need to be increased. Currently, GoE penalties/bonuses for quads and the 3A are the same as for triples and the 2A. GoE penalties/bonuses for triples and the 2A are different than for doubles and the 1A. That lack of consistency makes no sense whatsoever.
http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/200708-SP-SOV.pdf

Increasing GoE penalties/bonuses for quads by 100% and 3As by 50% would've had the following affect on Lysacek and Weir's GoE jump penalties/bonuses:

Lysacek
SP 4T+2T, -1.71 X 1 = -1.71
SP 3A, -0.29 X 0.5 = -0.15
FS 4T+3T, -1.86 X 1 = -1.86
FS 3A, -0.57 X 0.5 = -0.29
FS 3A+2Tx, -0.29 X 0.5 = -0.15
total = -4.16

Weir
SP 3A, 1.43 X 0.5 = 0.72
FS 4T, -1.29 X 1 = -1.29
FS 3A+3T, 1.29 X 0.5 = 0.65 [edited]
FS 3A, 1.00 X 0.5 = 0.50
total = 0.58

So Weir would've won the overall by 4.16+0.58 = 4.74 points over Lysacek if the GoEs for the bigger jumps made sense. Quality of execution should be equally as important for the bigger jumps as it is for the smaller jumps and currently it is not.

 

[GoldMedalist]

Your math is wrong.

I do believe that Quads need to have a slightly higher negative GOE, though.

But, again, it doesn't even matter because that wasn't the real problem. Evan should have lost from proper judging under the current system or ANY system.

 

[Tinymavy15]

Poor Caroline lost a lot of points in the SP because of that one stupid mistake with the under-rotation call on the 3Lz. It was not only a difference in base value, which would vaulted her over Bebe, but also about 1.5 points in GOE, which would've put her ahead of Katrina, and extremely close with Kimmie. In any case, she would have been in the last group of skaters, and her PCS wouldn't have suffered as much as it did in the LP. I totally disagree with the PCS judging of the LP. They have Mirai, Rachael, Ashley, Caroline, in that order. I would have ordered them Ashley, Caroline, Mirai, and Rachael instead -- based on their performances, not on their abilities. Caroline skated her heart out, whereas Mirai was really tight, and Rachael was slow -- and the latter two had their own take-off edge and UR problems.

I'm not disputing the final placements, but there should definitely not have been this big yawning gap between the top three and Caroline in the overall score.

Considering that Caroline had no downgrades, I'm even more disappointed by her LP score. They took a very long time putting out her scores too, so I'm sure they were reviewing her jumps for possible downgrades. Eventually they couldn't find any jump worth downgrading, but they managed to dock her levels on the spins and spirals. These were all wonderful, she carried them off so well! -- how come she didn't get all level 4's, like in the GPF? If she got the proper levels, and if Rachael & Ashley had gotten the proper 'e' deductions (and Mirai gotten the proper # of downgrades), then Caroline should have easily won the LP, as she should have. That was the performance of the night!

My overall feeling is that it's not the judging panel that was especially harsh on Caroline (I think her being in the pen-ultimate group contributed to lower PCS), but rather that the technical panel was especially harsh on Caroline throughout the competition (relative to the others).

yes, it seems that when in doubt, the judges mark her down. I also think that it was not only the points lost on the 3/3 combo that cost caroline the last group... and even the gold. After making that mistake right off the top, which she knew would be costly her performance suffered and the program was completetd slowly and without the fire.

 

[ChrisH]

But, again, it doesn't even matter because that wasn't the real problem. Evan should have lost from proper judging under the current system or ANY system.

You might be right, but your criticism of the judging isn't constructive as most Lysacek fans probably disagree with your scoring. I think that everyone can agree that the GoE penalties/bonuses for quads and the 3A need to be more proportional with their base values as they are with the other jumps. And it's a change that can be easily made without further complicating the system. It actually makes the system more intuitive from a fan and a judging standpoint. The chief complaint by neutral fans is that Weir had cleaner jumps and since his difficulty was competitive with Lysacek's, Weir should've won. That's what would've happened if the GoEs were what they should be.

The PCS judging is another matter. I've come to agree with those who want separate judges for the PCS. Split the current judges up into one group that scores GoEs and another group that scores the PCS.

I'd also like to see the video/computer system vastly improved. It'd be really cool if ice tracings were shown in replays including speed and rotational speed markers. Edge calls, underrotations, and other judgement calls would then be much more accurate.

 

[GoldMedalist]

You might be right, but your criticism of the judging isn't constructive as most Lysacek fans probably disagree with your scoring.

Those fans are uninformed, then. Lysacek's Quad/Triple alone should have been at least -2 GOE across the board for the multiple mistakes he made on that jump pass. Ignoring EVERYTHING else that I really disagree with, this alone would have given Johnny Weir the Gold Medal if Evan had been judged in the correct manner.

 

[Tonichelle]

The chief complaint by neutral fans is that Weir had cleaner jumps and since his difficulty was competitive with Lysacek's, Weir should've won.

I'm not a neutral fan. I am unashamedly in Lysacek's corner... but Weir won that night. The program was cleaner, better skated... and yeah the jumps were nicer too... when they're both on technically it should come down to the minor details, and Johnny brought the goods.

 

[DragonPhoenix]

Those fans are uninformed, then. Lysacek's Quad/Triple alone should have been at least -2 GOE across the board for the multiple mistakes he made on that jump pass. Ignoring EVERYTHING else that I really disagree with, this alone would have given Johnny Weir the Gold Medal if Evan had been judged in the correct manner.

I totally agree with everything you said.

The judging was incorrect.

 

[chuckm]

Evan also got outrageously high GOE for his final step sequence. Yes, it was very good, and it was the only part of the program where he didn't look half asleep, but please, six +3? +3 is a rarety, and that is as it should be. While Evan did lots of arm flailing, he really did not move his upper body that much, so he did not meet the criteria for a GOE that high. Evan hasn't gotten +3 GOE for that footwork section in international competitions where he skated much better than he did at Nationals.

 

[ChrisH]

Those fans are uninformed, then. Lysacek's Quad/Triple alone should have been at least -2 GOE across the board for the multiple mistakes he made on that jump pass. Ignoring EVERYTHING else that I really disagree with, this alone would have given Johnny Weir the Gold Medal if Evan had been judged in the correct manner.

Okay, let's look at the protocol.

1 4T+3T 13.00 -1.86 -3 -2 -1 -2 -2 -1 -2 -2 -2 11.14

So you're complaining because the majority of judges gave Lysacek a -2 grade rather than a -3? Sorry, but the judges have consistently saved the -3 grade for falls or SP wrong elements (as they're mandatory). In consequential effect, you're saying that falls really aren't that important.

Yes, there was some poor judging, but the poor scoring on Lyscek's 4T+3T rests squarely on the CoP system. The GoE score consists of two parts, the grade given by the judge and the scaler given by the CoP system. Quads have a large base value and so their scaler should also be large. Their scaler is not large, so the -2 grades given by the judges was insufficient by itself to truly reflect the poor quality of that element.

yes, it seems that when in doubt, the judges mark her down. I also think that it was not only the points lost on the 3/3 combo that cost caroline the last group... and even the gold. After making that mistake right off the top, which she knew would be costly her performance suffered and the program was completetd slowly and without the fire.

Yes, Caroline was tight in the SP.

There were reports that Caroline was struggling in practice and in the SP warmups. Combine that with Caroline's early start number (first group in the SP, not in the last group in the FS), and that resulted in lower scores than she deserved due to reputation. The judges need to do a better job of focusing on the performances. Splitting the judging panel into a GoE part and a PCS part would help. (That should also reduce the wait time for the scores to come up.)

 

[GoldMedalist]

Okay, let's look at the protocol.

1 4T+3T 13.00 -1.86 -3 -2 -1 -2 -2 -1 -2 -2 -2 11.14

So you're complaining because the majority of judges gave Lysacek a -2 grade rather than a -3?

No, I'm complaining about the two judges who only gave him -1. Evan was overscored on almost every single element. You take all those little points and add them up and it amounts it a relatively big difference.

I don't even want to talk about his Program Component scores anymore.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Yes, but when the judges do not agree across the board, which judges were in the final tally? It's a secret.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

I think for this event all the judges counted. There was no random draw.

But of the nine marks, they threw out the highest and the lowest. So if one or both of the judges that gave Lysacek a -1 wiuld have given a -2 instead, that would have lowered Evan's score by .14 points.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Given the title of this thread, I think this is one of those rare moments when a flutz or lip matters due to the closeness of the top contenders.

Otherwise, the penalty for the flutzing or lipping is so small, why worry about it when you can legally get in an other jump pass?

To see a proper Lutz jump the way it was invented and considered to be a viable extra jump in the list of jumps, check out Carriere! It's classic! I would like to see an automatic +1 in the GoEs for those who actually take off properly.

Joe

 

[gold12345]

I am still pretty upset by the fact that the judges ignored everyone's wrong edge takeoffs in the Ladies event, except for like, Caroline and Kimmie. Blatant inconsistencies in the way the judges score the skaters are very hard to swallow. Wagner's 3 flutzes make me the angriest, though. Her coach flat out made a public statement that Wagner doesn't know how to do a lutz and that they wouldn't address it until the summer. And all 3 of her lutzes don't get wrong edge deductions? I'm just disgusted by it.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I am still pretty upset by the fact that the judges ignored everyone's wrong edge takeoffs in the Ladies event, except for like, Caroline and Kimmie. Blatant inconsistencies in the way the judges score the skaters are very hard to swallow. Wagner's 3 flutzes make me the angriest, though. Her coach flat out made a public statement that Wagner doesn't know how to do a lutz and that they wouldn't address it until the summer. And all 3 of her lutzes don't get wrong edge deductions? I'm just disgusted by it.

Huray for Wagner's coach for admitting her pupil flutzes.

I'm not certain but I believe the Tech people call the wrong edge take offs and not the judges.

Also I tend to believe that many arm chair judges see more underrotations and flutzes than what actually happen. Underrotations carry serious penalties while wrong edge take offs very minor penalties. Free leg tapping on a jump landing is sometimes overlooked by the judges. I don't know the penalty for that. They should really place the judges around the arena and not all bunch up on one side of the arena.

Joe