Question about Tarasova

[Antilles]

Diva-Tarasova never coached A&P. They spent their entire career in France with Muriel Boucher-Zazoui. In their last year, they did some work with Dubova on their compulsories. Whatever happened to Dubova, anyway? She used to be one of the "power coaches". I saw her at 4cc's this year, but I don't know who she was with.

C&S are back with the Tarasova/Usova/Platov camp. They've switched a lot over the years. She also did work with FP&M, although she was not their primary coach. She did some work with them in the summers.

I never knew Tarasova worked with Gordeeva&Grinkov. I thought they finished their career with Marina Zoueva.

 

[berthes ghost]

Antilles, Tonicelli said that TT coached G&G in 91 and then they went pro. It's possible that they went with Zoueva in their reinstatement bid in 94 and their second pro run after that, thus they did indeed "finish their career" with her.

 

[euterpe]

Well didn't the Japanese federation fire Richard Callaghan because he didn't accompany his skater to Japanese Nationals? If he felt the need to be with that loser Jenny Kirk rather than accompany Shizuka to her Japanese nationals, then it served him right that she switched coaches and TT gets all the glory. Plus TT did a fabulous job with Shizuka, Richard couldn't have gotten that artistic performance out of Shizuka.

The reason Callaghan didn't go to Japanese Nationals had nothing to do with Jenny Kirk. This season, Japanese Nationals coincided with Christmas, and THAT was the reason Callaghan didn't go to Japan. He wanted to spend Christmas with his family.

The Japanese federation was incensed about Callaghan not being at JN for Arakawa, and that's why they fired him. It was right around that time that Sasha split with Tarasova (or vice versa). Perhaps in the background, the Japanese Federation had already sent feelers out to TT, who supposedly had been watching Arakawa closely during the Grand Prix. We will probably never know the complete story, but I have a suspicion that the split with Sasha had been brewing for some time and the Japanese Federation may have had something to do with it, at least indirectly.

 

[Effy]

Tarasova/Zueva

According to My Sergei, G&G wanted to change coach from Leoniwich to Tarasova, but wanted to keep Marina Zueva as choreographer. Zueva declined to continue with Tarasova, because Tarasova was also a choreographer. For G&G first pro seasons TT made numbers like, Sheracherade, Meditation, Pajacci and Jesus Christ Superstar. According to the book they parted companies after approx. one year because TT could not deliver the money nor the shows as promised G&G opted to go back to SOI, where they did numbers choreographed by Toller Cranston and the SOI regular choreographers. Marina Zueva was approached when they planned the Olympic comeback, and continued doing most of their numbers for the rest of the pro career, save The Man I Love by Sandra Besic

 

[Ptichka]

Tarasova's students
She started off with Rodnina & Zaitsev in pairs. They've just left the famous Zhuk at the time (the one Gordeeva writes so much about in My Sergei. Their style and choreography always remained more Zhuk than Tarasova. (2 Olympic Golds with TT. - '76 & '80)

When she started coaching dancers, her first famous team was Moiseeva & Minenkov. They were good, but never captured the Olympic gold. They were, however, the first team that allowed Tarasova to develop her unique style.

The first Olympic champions that she raised were Bestemianova & Bukin. They reflected TT's intense choreo better than anyone else. When I think of TT's style, this is the team I always think of. Really, they were the only champions that she raised from scratch. (1 Olympic Gold with TT - '84; total TT Ol. g's -- 3).

Then, just before the '88 Olympics, Klimova & Ponomarenko left their long time coach Dubova to go to TT. Their superb technique certainly has nothing to do with TT, but she did add a certain "umph" to their style. (1 gold - '88; total TT's O g's -- 4).

After that, TT retired from competitive coaching, and concentrated on theater (she also worked with G&G during this time). Then (it's not entirely clear to me how, as there are many versions) she saw Kulik training with Kudryavtsev; he wanted to train with her, she felt compelled to help him, so she took him on. Around the same time, Gretchuk & Platov left Lininchuk; they could not go back to Dubova; they've been wanting to go to TT. Now that she was out of retirement, she took them on ('98 -- 1 Olympic gold each -- total TT O g's -- 6)

Then of course Yagudin left Mishin. His '02 gold brought TT's total to 7.

Right now, she tains Shizuka, Griazev, Kulikova & Novikov (#3 Russian dance team), she works with Chait & Sakhnovsky (though their main coach is Platov), she'll obviously be working with Joubert. Rumors are floating that she may do choreography for Faiella & Scalli. I hope she continues to work with Weir, as I think his success this year is on part due to her influence.

The list of skaters who have spent at least some time with her over the last decade is almost endless -- Fusar-Poli & Margaglio, Shen & Zhao, Abitbol & Bernadis, Bourne & Kraatz, Grushina & Goncharov, Cohen, Usova & Platov...

TT's health
The current "official theory" is that the whole time TT meant not her own health, but the health of her elderly mother and her husband Krainev. I won't even comment on what I think of the veracity of that...

Dubova
I think she is probably the most unlucky of coaches. She created Klimova & Ponomarenko only to have them leave just before their big Olympic victory. Her next prized students Usova & Zhulin came in second in '94 when it seemed the gold was theirs. Her next promising stars Navka & Gezalyan broke up because of her affair with Zhulin. She fell out of favor with Piseev and Co., meaning she couldn't take on any young Russian teams. The whole experience left her very bitter (judging from some interviews I've read). Right now, she is coaching some Asian and Australian teams. At this Worlds, her teams' best result was 22nd - from a Chinese pair she coaches.

 

[Antilles]

That sucks. Dubova seems to have a lot to give to the sport.

 

[soogar]

Richard spending Christmas with his family is a really lame excuse for not accompanying Shizuka to Nationals. If Todd had an event or Nationals on Christmas, I'm pretty sure Richard would drop everything for him. Plus Richard already travels a lot for his job. Working on holidays is almost a requirement for figure skating (esp with shows and events scheduled around the holidays). He accepted money from the Japanese Federation to coach their skater , therefore he has to fulfill his job obligations which include going to the girl's competitions. Also Japanese Nationals was the most important competition for Shizuka b/c if she didn't do well there (and she placed 3rd which was barely making the team), her season is over unless the Federation puts her on the team.

Also if the poster was correct in stating that Japanese Nationals and US Nationals were only a week apart, he was probably preparing Jenny for US Nationals while Shizuka was away at her nationals.

I think Amber would have been a better choice than Jenny for Worlds because Amber looks like she has her stuff together and she's healthy. Jenny's anorexic figure really bothers me and it doesn't surprise me that she's always injured and sick, she needs to eat something. The issue is moot anyway b/c unless Jenny posts consistently high results next season, I don't think the USFSA will waste a spot on her.

As for the unethical situation: has anyone given any thought that perhaps the Cohen camp was displeased with the way Sasha was performing under pressure and made the decision to switch to a coach who would help Sasha with the technical and psychological aspects of her skating? I wouldn't put it all on TT that the partnership split. Maybe she said it was health reasons to SAVE FACE b/c she didn't want it known that she was dumped. She might have been watching Shizuka hard b/c the Japanese federation made overtures toward her and she was evaluating the skater's strengths and weaknesses.

 

[hockeyfan228]

Also Japanese Nationals was the most important competition for Shizuka b/c if she didn't do well there (and she placed 3rd which was barely making the team), her season is over unless the Federation puts her on the team.

The Japanese Federation had announced before Japanese Nationals that Suguri and Arakawa were guaranteed spots on the Japanese Ladies' Team based on their GPF results. While performing well at Nationals may have been considered obligatory to the skaters, it was not to qualify. It is possible that Callahan, from a Western view, thought that Japanese Nationals weren't that important, because Arakawa had made the team without them.

 

[mzheng]

The Japanese federation was incensed about Callaghan not being at JN for Arakawa, and that's why they fired him. It was right around that time that Sasha split with Tarasova (or vice versa). Perhaps in the background, the Japanese Federation had already sent feelers out to TT, who supposedly had been watching Arakawa closely during the Grand Prix. We will probably never know the complete story, but I have a suspicion that the split with Sasha had been brewing for some time and the Japanese Federation may have had something to do with it, at least indirectly.

My sentiment exactly. Too many things happened too coincidently. Beginning at the season, words from the attendants in SA and SC, TT just couldn't take off her eye from Arakawa when both Sasha and Arakawa on practice, where Arakawa reel out diff 3/3 left and right. Had she want to keep Cohen (seeing a true champion materials in Cohen), she would make compromise such as not going back to Rasian Nats (which happened to be the sametime as US Nats and where she accept some recognation hourner from her fed), tolerant Mom Cohen, etc. However seeing a ready to make (champion material) in front of her, she just can't resist and who knows what Japanese fed got/send the signal. We can never be sure what happened the behind the scene. Right when Arakawa switch to TT, I just felt that Japanese Fed desperately need TT's influence.

 

[Ptichka]

I wouldn't put it all on TT that the partnership split. Maybe she said it was health reasons to SAVE FACE b/c she didn't want it known that she was dumped.

I thought that was a given. She is really the Queen of Politics. And the health excuse saved face not only for her, but also for Sasha's camp -- they weren't just making a last-minute dash from one coach to another, they were forced into it by TT's health.

The issue is moot anyway b/c unless Jenny posts consistently high results next season, I don't think the USFSA will waste a spot on her.

Correct me I am wrong, but I don't think it sounds like USFSA to pick and choose whom to send. It sounds like Russian, French, or Japanese federations, but really not like US.

Callaghan & Japanese Nats
Sometimes the coach/student relationship transcends the basics. I think Callaghan was personally invested in Todd's results, and would follow him to Antarctica on Christmas Eve if necessary. With Shizuka, he probably regarded the relationship as more proffesional-only. From that point of view, accompanying her to nationals would not be essential.

 

[soogar]

I felt that TT put a lot in Sasha's skating. Sometimes you put everything you can into a person and it just doesn't work. By saying that TT left Sasha for Shizuka b/c Shizuka was a "ready made champion" is cheapening the efforts TT put in Sasha and Shizuka. As we've seen with previous coaching changes, sometime a coach can work magic with one skater and the process doesn't work with another skater.

Sasha couldn't get the kind of competitive performance with TT that she was able to get with Robin Wagner, likewise with Shizuka and Callaghan. TT made Shizuka more artistic and confident and built upon the good technique Callaghan instilled in Shizuka.

However everyone is complaining about poor Richard, how about Mishin and Alexie Yagudin? TT gets credit for Yagudin however Mishin is the one who taught Alexei to jump like that.

 

[soogar]

Re: ptichika

A coach has an obligation to accompany his student to competitions, especially Nationals. I can see him not going to a fluff comp, but Nationals is not something that a coach can arbitrarily skip. If you go to US Nationals, everyone there has a coach unless they've dumped their coach like MK did. Nationals was part of Richard's PROFESSIONAL obligation to Shizuka and the Japanese Federation. It's a really big deal when a coach does not accompany his student to nationals and Richard is aware of this obligation. Richard not attending Japanese Nationals was a slap in the face to Shizuka and a message to the Federation that his other skaters are more important to him than Shizuka.

Therefore I feel no sympathy that Richard was "slighted" when Shizuka won with TT. He let Shizuka down and the fact that he didn't go to her nationals was extremely unprofessional and the Japanese Federation let him know it. The man probably commands upwards of $150 an hour for coaching services, with that kind of money, he owed her and her federation to fulfill his professional obligations to her which INCLUDE attending competitions.

 

[Ptichka]

However everyone is complaining about poor Richard, how about Mishin and Alexie Yagudin? TT gets credit for Yagudin however Mishin is the one who taught Alexei to jump like that.

The question on which coach to credit with a skater's success with an old one. If you notice, in my long post on TT's history, I made sure to mention most previous coaches of her students. TT reaped the rewards from students who have been taught by Mishin, Dubova, Kudryavtsev, Lininchuk etc. In fact, TT herself is always careful to credit previous coaches. Actually, didn't we just have a thread about coaching changes in general?

 

[hockeyfan228]

Correct me I am wrong, but I don't think it sounds like USFSA to pick and choose whom to send. It sounds like Russian, French, or Japanese federations, but really not like US.

There are several truisms that the USFSA has played for years:
1. Whoever is National Champion is given the most credibility at Olymics or Worlds
2. The third member of the team is a sacrificial lamb, regardless of performance at Worlds, and often so is the second.
3. The team should be made of skaters who can be counted on to qualify and ensure the most spots for the next year.

Just about any skater who has placed well at Worlds has been given the benefit of the doubt at Nationals, if possible (ex: Sarah Hughes barely making the Olympic team ), and for a challenger to beat the National Champion takes a major effort by the challenger, more than doing just the best performance on a given day, or a major meltdown by the former champion (ex: Kwan in 1997, Goebel in 2004).

Hell would have had to freeze over for Dan Hollander to make the US world team again after he didn't quality at Worlds the year before, losing the US Men a spot. It would have been interesting to have seen what would have happened to Tara Lipinski's career had she not qualified in 1996; in her first trip to Worlds, she barely qualified.

 

[soogar]

Ptchika:
The USFSA does pick its team. They can put an injured skater who missed Nationals on the team, they also hold up the skaters so they make the top 3. They did it last year with Sasha when AP outskated her. I guarantee that next year, faced with several clean SPs, the judges will give the nod to another skater over Jenny (unless Jenny has fabulous Grand Prix results over several events and not just one great skate at one event) and you will see the same in the LP.

 

[Ptichka]

Well, actually Soogar while AP arguably outskated Sasha, Sasha was still the bronze medalist. Can you actually site an example of USFSA sending the pewter medalist instead of the bronze unless bronze could not go? Also, I think with CoP placement manipulation will become much harder.

 

[SusanBeth]

As for the unethical situation: has anyone given any thought that perhaps the Cohen camp was displeased with the way Sasha was performing under pressure and made the decision to switch to a coach who would help Sasha with the technical and psychological aspects of her skating?

Of course, that has nothing to do with the potential for abuse with last minute coaching changes. It doesn't make them look better either.

 

[hockeyfan228]

Well, actually Soogar while AP arguably outskated Sasha, Sasha was still the bronze medalist. Can you actually site an example of USFSA sending the pewter medalist instead of the bronze unless bronze could not go? Also, I think with CoP placement manipulation will become much harder.

I know this wasn't addressed to me, but what the USFSA does is makes sure that the skater they want to send wins the bronze medal.

What the USFSA has never done to my knowledge is to have a skater on the team say s/he was injured in order for the pewter medallist to compete (assuming three places).

 

[Tonichelle]

Soogar: please refrain from attacking a skater... calling Jenny a "loser" is harsh and very rude.

 

[soogar]

Who is to say that COP will be adopted for National level competitions? The USFSA still stuck to the old 6.0 system for the nationals and they might continue to stick to it. Plus in 1998 Nationals, it was a pretty foregone conclusion that Kwan, Lipinski and Bobek were going to make the team even to the point that Campbells , a major sponsor put those three ladies on its cans prior to Nationals. Had Tonia K. skated great, I think they would have kept Bobek on the team but fortunately for the USFSA, that situation never played out.

However if you look at the rules, the USFSA has final determination of the team regardless of who wins the medals. They decide who goes to Worlds and with Jenny's horrible performance, coupled with the fact that she had pulled out the event before (and not only that event), they're not going to put her on the team unless she wins Grand Prix and skates consistently over a number of events. That's just wishful thinking that the USFSA will disregard her poor performance at Worlds. Tara had a poor performance at Worlds due to the fact she fell in the short program and then had a great skate in the LP. So even though Tara finished 15th, she redeemed herself with a good LP. Jenny on the other hand tanked all three performances. There was no indication that she could pull herself together and get a good performance out of herself. The USFSA can forgive a skater for flubbing on the first worlds, but not the way Jenny did. And lest you think I'm just being hard on Jenny, the USFSA did the same thing with Tonia Kwiatkowski and Lisa Ervin when they messed up Worlds 1993. In fact, had the US team been deeper, they probably would have left Nancy off the Olympic team as well but there really wasn't anyone else. In fact , it was really dopey of Tonya to attempt to knock Kerrigan off b/c they probably would have put her on the team. But maybe she was shocked at being left off the team in 1993 that she felt she had not choice.
Quite frankly, there are other girls on the team who might be able to better exploit a worlds opportunity than Jenny can and they need to give these girls a shot. Jenny was privileged to compete in Worlds twice (and yes , I use the word privileged) and she made nothing of her two opportunities. In fact , if she was injured prior to the first worlds, she should have turned down the invitation to give another deserving skater the opportunity to skate. So if they decide to use Code of points and an inconsistent skater just happens to have a great skate on the day that a consistent skater falters, I guarantee the USFSA will put that consistent skater on the team regardless of results. Don't forget that in gymnastics, despite all the money these girls expend on training, the US Gymnastics federation has left girls off the team who had made it legitimately (Kim Kelly) to field the best team and there is nothing that can be done about it legally.