Repeating Programs - Pros and Cons

[Ender]

Compared to working up a new program completely from zero, yes, it is less work. I don't know why we're even discussing a simple equation like that. :con3:

Hanyu did have 2 completely new programs with crazy transitions and new elements but didn't get appreciation. Even though his programs last season was by the the most packed and exhausting in term of design, they were trashed as "empty" by some armchair audience, even Hanyu himself said he wanted to ditch his programs last season due to poor appreciation. I love to remind some people that those "empty" programs as they call had the most amount of 1 foot skating. I think it's quite safe to say that going for more 1 foot skating and drastically new things isn't good for Olympic. I don't see the point of going for something "no one ever did before" when you will be punished harshly.
At least no man has skated to Chopin Ballade no.1 and Seimei before.

 

[Yatagarasu]

I can. I can blame him for, in fact, not being a gutsy, original, artistic leader of the sport. Seimei is a great program. I would reuse it if I were him. It is the best thing he has ever done, IMO, which is sadly a quite limited repertoire for someone who has been in the sport this long. But combining it with Chopin for the third season. Nope. No forgiveness there.

That you actually wrote all that and it's not irony is cracking me up so badly, that you have absolutely no idea. I do owe you a pint for a good laugh during lunch.

No forgiveness! I even have music playing in my head with that part to accompany the Morgan Freeman voice!

 

[Ender]

TWO repeats for the two time world champion, record breaker, reigning Olympic gold medalist, arguably the athlete who has pushed the sport forward most in the past four years...as a huge fan I am BEYOND disappointed. I don't care how much "reworking" is done, this is ridiculous and I expected so much more.

And I assume you pay Hanyu his bills, his training expenses and give him world records.

 

[FSGMT]

I do not really think that 'people go against' Yuzuru 'just because' of programs - people actually have a right to feel disappointed and express it, but I do feel that the disappointment have nothing to do with going against Yuzuru in 'personal' sense, like turning backs to him at all.

What is totally unnecessary there (but totally expected tbh) is getting ballistic and war-mode over simple disappointment expressed by some over Yuzuru being back with both his already used programs - at some point, we have to realize that we all have some expectations, dreamy programs about skaters and with such figure as Yuzuru it's all so much more intensified and facing such announcement triggers disappointment, NOT necessary critique/negativity, but is received as such (wrongly).

Myself, I see Yuzuru as one of very few figures nowadays that gets the sport going - but it is due his work ethics, demeanor and perfection strive, not by his programs necessarily. Saying that, it depends what point of view we take on about voicing opinions over return of Chopin SP and 'Seimei' FS, because different people seeing him and feeling him differently as a skater, as a person. As a casual viewer, do I feel a pang of disappointment and kind of longing over the fact of old programs return? Yes, because I simply associate new season with chance to see something new, fresh, challenging from skaters and with Yuzuru - it's also connected with expanding his great interpretation talent regarding various types of music/themes. But do I 'go against' Yuzuru because that choices made? Absolutely not. People really have to understand that voicing a mere disappointment/critique over sole DECISION to re-use programs/music has nothing to do with going after skater who made that decision himself.

From my perspective, I respect Yuzuru's decision - even if feeling disappointed by it. My disappointment though is sourced more form the fact that this could be his last competitive season and would love to see a new stuff just for sake of 'utilizing' his musicality/interpretation talents, a stuff (hopefully) to re-watch and remember for many years; it's not really about perspective of seeing again Chopin SP and 'Seimei' FS, because those programs were very impactful and thrilling to watch as they already were. After all, this is an Olympic season and Yuzuru decided what was the best for him all factors considered, looking at his path after Sochi - he's conscious about himself by making those decisions and he probably is aware that such decisions alone won't make you fans, but the actual programs could. Let's wait. If I have a faith and confidence is something in that situation, it's Yuzuru.

And now it's more about if this announcement/decision made will overshadow people's reception of actual programs Yuzuru will present upcoming season - it's a thing Yuzuru himself has nothing to do.

The skaters and their teams of course care about how they can produce the best possible performances and subsequently win medals, and rightly so. As fans, we want to see great competitions and great skating because we enjoy that (and that implies variety, development, new programs and choreographies too) so a sting of disappointment at the news of recycled programs is more than justifiable. That said, I wish him to skate them in the best possible way when it counts :agree2:

 

[Neenah16]

I can. I can blame him for, in fact, not being a gutsy, original, artistic leader of the sport. Seimei is a great program. I would reuse it if I were him. It is the best thing he has ever done, IMO, which is sadly a quite limited repertoire for someone who has been in the sport this long. But combining it with Chopin for the third season. Nope. No forgiveness there.

No you cannot blame him because he doesn't have to be any of these things. Being disappointed with his choice is understandable but blaming him as if he committed a crime is a bit too much don't you think.

For me, I stand by what I said before about this topic. It is the skater's choice and I will not judge them for picking what they think is best for them whether I agree or not. You make your choices and you live with the result, no one else. That goes for all skater not just Hanyu.


I do agree with Hanyu's choice with Seimei, that program deserve to be in the Olympics and I am quite happy he is bringing it back.

 

[Ender]

I can. I can blame him for, in fact, not being a gutsy, original, artistic leader of the sport. Seimei is a great program. I would reuse it if I were him. It is the best thing he has ever done, IMO, which is sadly a quite limited repertoire for someone who has been in the sport this long. But combining it with Chopin for the third season. Nope. No forgiveness there.

How much money Hanyu has borrowed from you to do the choreography so you can blame him?

 

[ranran]

Compared to working up a new program completely from zero, yes, it is less work. I don't know why we're even discussing a simple equation like that. :con3:

Because by saying that you are being presumptive and undermining the effort of the athletes and coaches who you don't know what type of training regimes involved, how do you know the effort to polish a program isn't the same as the effort of making new program? By saying the bolded part, I assumed you know the feeling and hard work involve in doing this field and at this level of sport? So no, that is not a simple equation that we are discussing but simple mindedness.

 

[MaiKatze]

Because by saying that you are being presumptive and undermining the effort of the athletes and coaches who you don't know what type of training regimes involved, how do you know the effort to polish a program isn't the same as the effort of making new program? By saying the bolded part, I assumed you know the feeling and hard work involve in doing this field and at this level of sport? So no, that is not a simple equation that we are discussing but simple mindedness.

I am undermining the effort? Me? Wow, I didn't know I had such powers.

Now, let's look at this without getting emotional. Yuzuru chooses a program he already skated to before. Yes, he might change things around. But essentially it is still Seimei, Yuzuru still connects to the character of Abe no Seimei, the onmyōji. It is the same story, the same persona, the same connection. He doesn't have to find that connection. He's essentially doing what Javier does when he skates to Chaplin. He's already found the character and interpretation. So let's assume he would skate to something completely new, like at the beginning of last season to a Prince song, Let's go crazy. This is significantly harder because it's new, and he had to find the character and interpretation first. And that takes time. So, yes, I think it is easier. But what do I know, I'm simple minded after all.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I think if it was just one program being recycled (even with changes), people wouldn't mind so much. However, I think it's the double whammy of reusing both the SP and LP that sort of brings up certain critiques of modern-day skate-by-the-points skating that people already have. Maybe there's a fear now that skaters realize it doesn't matter if they skate to a new routine or not so long as they rack up those points, and some "new" routines from skaters generally were already being seen as old routines just with different music.

I'm also a bit disappointed, and since this is a skating forum where fans express their opinions, obviously people do care what "arm chair" critics have to say. Not caring defeats the purpose of posting on a message board and partaking in discussion/debate. Plus, the fact that the reaction to defend Yuzu is so strong shows a great amount of caring. However, in this case, I'm not that disappointed. Those are two great programs, Yuzu is a wonderful skater, and I'd love to see a revamped Seimei skated well next season, especially at the Olympics.

 

[lilsailor]

BTW: According to this interview translation (on tumblr), Yuzuru's plan is to repeat 4S and 4T, so only one 3A planned. But if he pops one of the aforementioned quads, he'll do 3A as his last jumping pass instead of 3Lz to make up lost points.
Smart planning & calculation.

yeah i hadn't seen that article yet, my friend and i were originally thinking he would do 4Lz w 2 3As, but that doesn't seem to be the plan

 

[nimi]

yeah i hadn't seen that article yet, we were originally thinking he would do 4Lu w 2 3As, but that doesn't seem to be the plan

Well, that's my read on the situation based on the interview... But the last time I checked, the fanthread seems to be on the verge of a flamewar (basically "it's disrespectful to Yuzu to suggest he maybe won't do a 4Lz!"), so I'm going to bow out and stop speculating.

 

[lilsailor]

Well, that's my read on the situation based on the interview... But the last time I checked, the fanthread seems to be on the verge of a flamewar (basically "it's disrespectful to Yuzu to suggest he maybe won't do a 4Lz!"), so I'm going to bow out and stop speculating.

haha he's said he won't on multiple occasions, said he's focusing on going clean and not thinking of 4Lz but that he's been practising it... so I think he's probably holding it off, if he needs it, he has it to put in

 

[Seren]

Yuzuru doesn't need our approval for his choices, and he certainly doesn't need our "forgiveness" whatever that is supposed to mean. He doesn't owe us anything- he doesn't have to make his choices based on what armchair critics want. He and his team have been in this game a long time- I assume they know what's best for their plan.

Personally, I love Seimei and am excited to see it back- it was a unique program and you could tell Yuzuru really connected with it. I am a little disappointed he is reusing the SP but again, he doesn't owe us anything. I love Yuzuru and am still curious how he will rework it. I'm not going to spend the entire season complaining about it- all that would do is make me grumpy and ruin the joy I get from watching him.

Long story short, it's fine to discuss the pros and cons of reusing a program but this isn't worth turning into a drama fest. Yuzuru is going to do what he's going to do, there is no need to act like we're being wronged by his choices.

 

[andromache]

I see some fans in here trying to have it both ways.

1. I'm so excited to see Seimei again! It was the best program ever, and I'm glad he is doing something he is comfortable with that we know people will appreciate.

2. Yuzuru is putting in just as much effort into "re-working" Seimei as someone who does a completely new program.

Um, if Seimei is going to basically be an entirely new program, why are you so excited to see it "again"? If it's going to be soooooo completely re-worked, how are we so sure that he will be as comfortable with it as the original? If that's the case, wouldn't it just be easier to get music from a new source? There are plenty of Japanese music sources that have gone unused by figure skaters, and many of them might not even be too different from Seimei, and will have plenty of mass appeal.

Skaters don't owe us anything and they can decide to do whatever they want - but we as fans are completely within our rights to be disappointed. We don't owe skaters our undying love and appreciation.

I'm usually 100% on board with skaters repeating a program, especially in an Olympic season when it's important to know what works and what doesn't work for such a huge, mainstream audience - but repeating two in one season goes a little beyond the pale for me, especially since he's already done the SP two season already. If Ashley Wagner was repeating Hip Hip Chin Chin AND Moulin Rouge, I think this entire board (Ashley fans included) would be dragging her choice through the mud.

 

[Barb]

But when you are creating a program and you think it's so amazing, why not save it for the Olympic season? Let's be honest, the only reason because Yuzuru is reusing programs is because he wants to focus 100% on the jumps. Suppose the only reason to repeat it is that they really think the program is so incredible that it should be shown in the Olympics. So, he believes himself unable to achieve something equal or better than Semei? And Chopin is sooo good that it was not enough 2 but 3 seasons?

 

[chillgil]

2. Yuzuru is putting in just as much effort into "re-working" Seimei as someone who does a completely new program.

Um, if Seimei is going to basically be an entirely new program, why are you so excited to see it "again"? If it's going to be soooooo completely re-worked, how are we so sure that he will be as comfortable with it as the original? If that's the case, wouldn't it just be easier to get music from a new source? There are plenty of Japanese music sources that have gone unused by figure skaters, and many of them might not even be too different from Seimei, and will have plenty of mass appeal.

so music choices are really exciting for people. Seimei, which is very dramatic and strongly japanese, gets people excited because they want to see yuzu skate to music that reflects him in this way. with your argument you could ask, "why are people so excited for [insert skater] to skate to [non warhorse music]?" so the argument doesnt really apply in figure skating because you could literally ask that about any program and skater has chosen to do

also, i dont recall anyone on here claiming that the entire program is going to be reworked from the ground up and that nothing will be the same. if they did they are misinformed. i kinda feel like you are trying to stir up a fight in this way by taking what some people have mentioned about how he will be tweaking the choreo and changing the layout and blowing it way out of proportion.

i do agree that we don't owe skaters undying love and appreciation but there is a line between feeling disappointed about a skater's choice, and deliberately choosing to not respect their decision

 

[Tolstoj]

Repeating a program without changing anything -> absolutely against with for two reasons:

1) we're going to see another year with the same program, as a judge why giving you better PCS if you are performing the same program? It should be a rule: if you are going to skate the exact same program for more than one year, don't expect new PBs in the components.

2) even memorizing a program is a challenge, so in this case you're saving that time to work on other things, that is indeed an advantage.

I would say though that reusing the same music but with significant changes (more transitions, different positions for the jumps, new spins...) is fine.

 

[Neenah16]

Repeating a program without changing anything -> absolutely against with for two reasons:

1) we're going to see another year with the same program, as a judge why giving you better PCS if you are performing the same program? It should be a rule: if you are going to skate the exact same program for more than one year, don't expect new PBs in the components.

What if the program was not skated clean in the previous season?
What if the skater's interpretation and performance improved?
What if the skater kept the program to focus on skating skills and showed great improvement the next season?

 

[sammyott]

I haven't followed skating for more than a few years, so I'm personally okay with repeating programs that I haven't seen, but I feel like it's more prevalent in an Olympic season because skaters know that program did well or they know they can get the points with that program and that it was received well. So I think they're just trying to be safe and make sure they do a program the audience and judges will like.

It's funny because I have dancer friends and I try to get them to watch figure skating and they're surprised when they see the same program at different events. I realize that's how skating works, but I wish more skaters learned to choreograph that way they wouldn't have to pay a ton of money to hire a choreographer and thus would be more willing to do new programs (I realize this is a tough ask haha).

 

[andromache]

What if the program was not skated clean in the previous season?
What if the skater's interpretation and performance improved?
What if the skater kept the program to focus on skating skills and showed great improvement the next season?

1. Yes, skating clean is often an okay reason to award higher components, and I don't mind it when a skater keeps a program in order to perform it cleanly and at their best.

2. I think anyone's interpretation/performance will improve after having a program for a long time. It doesn't mean that all skaters should keep the same programs forever.

3. How often does this ever happen? Never? I've never seen an elite skater keep a program in order to focus on skating skills - it's always to focus on getting the technical content down and/or increasing the technical difficulty.