Repeating Programs - Pros and Cons

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Also, does anyone know if judges actually watch performances from competitions they aren't judging themselves? I doubt they remember everything they've seen and that each judge in the ISU remembers every program - heck, even the commentators can barely remember correct skating history judging by the number of incorrect statements they tend to make, and they probably watch more skating than the judges do.

I'm pretty sure anyone judging men's skating (let alone who watches it) remembers Chopin / Seimei, especially the record-breaking performances. They might not remember every choreographic nuance, but surely people will be making comparisons between his 2015/2016 and 2017/2018 sets of programs, including the judges. In that sense, it's a risk, because everyone will be comparing each competition to NHK '15 and GPF '15, and it might not have the same impact if he doesn't skate the programs as cleanly as he did in those instances.

 

[Ophelia]

He's only unbeatable if he skates clean, which is not what you can say about other skaters.

Get dat Oly gold!

 

[Neenah16]

An interesting perspective for fans who have been trying to convince everyone he is unbeatable based on the second mark.

First of all, I never said that, not in my post or before so I don't see why you are bringing it up. Also, who is "fans"? I am only one person and I don't speak for others.

Second, That was a reply to post about Hanyu repeating his programs and not trying something different which as far as I knew has nothing to do with PC.. I don't see originality of programs or new themes in the criteria of PC, if there was such a thing there would be no warhorses.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

It is not that he is being criticised (many of his fans did that), it is the manner in which the criticism happen that rubs people the wrong way. I don't see why some are acting as if he somehow wronged them personally by choosing to repeat his programs.

And he can explore his artistic ability in exhibitions and ice shows where he does not need to worry about scores or medals.

Hah, you're sounding like me, now. I'm assuming you're completely okay with Medvedeva tanoing everything/backloading, and Chen/Zhou going for 6 quads then?

And yeah, he can choose whatever he wants to repeat. He can even go out and skate the same programs with the same jumps if he wants to. But I think others are at liberty to comment on that. It is very unorthodox for a skater to use the exact same programs (successful perfectly-skated ones at that), from just 2 seasons prior.

He is slated to win a second OGM, especially with tried and tested programs, but I will still wonder what he would have chosen if he decided to do 2 completely novel programs for an Olympic season (has anyone asked him?!).

 

[Tavi...]

I'm looking forward to Semei 2.0. As CSG said, Semei 1.0 had an ideal balance of technical difficulty and artistry. The trick with version 2.0 will be for Hanyu to retain the artistry while jumping 5 quads. If he can't, there's really no point in repeating the program. If he can, he'll be taking what we saw last season - 4-5 quad programs that mostly had all the quads and setup crammed into the first 2 minutes and everything else in the remaining 2-1/2 minutes - and pushing the limits of skating again, in a different way.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

In this thread....

When a skater I do not like reuses similar programs/themes/choreography: They have no artistic range and are taking the easy way out.

When my favorite skater reuses similar programs/themes/choreography: I'm so happy this skater is going with something they're comfortable with to give them their best shot at winning.

As for discussions whether or not a reused program will be very different than its original incarnation - if it was going to be THAT different, then it wouldn't require music from the same source.

Real talk x 10000000

 

[Neenah16]

Hah, you're sounding like me, now. I'm assuming you're completely okay with Medvedeva tanoing everything/backloading, and Chen/Zhou going for 6 quads then?

And yeah, he can choose whatever he wants to repeat. He can even go out and skate the same programs with the same jumps if he wants to. But I think others are at liberty to comment on that. It is very unorthodox for a skater to use the exact same programs (successful perfectly-skated ones at that), from just 2 seasons prior.

He is slated to win a second OGM, especially with tried and tested programs, but I will still wonder what he would have chosen if he decided to do 2 completely novel programs for an Olympic season (has anyone asked him?!).

I am indeed completely okay with tano's, backloading and multiple quads if done well. I am also okay with people commenting on any skater's program and expressing their opinions (negative or positive) as long as they do not attack the skater.

This is the last time I am commenting on this subject here as it is not the appropriate thread.. If anyone want to discuss any of my posts further with me, please use PM or just move to the other thread.

 

[icybear]

Repeating one program is already bad enough but repeating 2 is just poor. Figure skating is not just about getting as much points as possible but also entertaining the crowd. No matter how great the program is, having to watch a program at an Olympic you've already watched performed 10 times before is bound to be some what stale. Also it's unfair on other skaters who have actually spent time working on new choreo and new quads and not just upping their difficulty

 

[AngelENTL]

My ideal would be new programs every year, and I would think particularly in an Olympic year I'd want brand new programs. The inter-Olympic years are for testing out different styles, taking risks, etc -- and then if one style worked particularly well, then don't re-use that program but craft a program in that fashion.

That said, of course the ideal can't happen all the time. For me there's a big difference between using a new program for a second year (which is perfectly acceptable) and bringing an old program back from the archives (which I think should be saved for only the rarest of circumstances). My fear is that letting all these folks (for lack of a better phrase) "get away with" reviving the dead sets a precedent for future seasons. So for all those who think it's fine this year, I hope you feel the same way next year and the year after and the year after if this becomes a trend...

 

[Mrs. P]

Just a thought to throw out there: I feel like repeating programs used to be much more common then it is now. Or returning to old programs. Didn't Shizuka Arakawa win 2004 Worlds and OGM in 2006 with Turnadot? I feel like in the 1980s, I saw the same program multiple times...too but I can't think of a specific example.

 

[karne]

Because by saying that you are being presumptive and undermining the effort of the athletes and coaches who you don't know what type of training regimes involved, how do you know the effort to polish a program isn't the same as the effort of making new program? By saying the bolded part, I assumed you know the feeling and hard work involve in doing this field and at this level of sport? So no, that is not a simple equation that we are discussing but simple mindedness.

I find this an odd comment. Admittedly I am not at the same level of Hanyu but I have done both before - choreographed a completely new program from scratch and re-worked an existing one - and there is absolutely no question what is harder. It will always, always be harder to choreograph new because you are starting without any reference, any framework, any guide except the music. At least reworking, you already have the material, you're just shifting it around.

Sorry, but the "re-working a program can be just as hard as choreographing a new one!" seems like a bizzare justification for the Hanyufans to make. Especially since I saw plenty of Hanyufans hoeing into Javier for apparently "always skating in the same style" (back before we knew about Hanyu's choices)!!

 

[Li'Kitsu]

An interesting perspective for fans who have been trying to convince everyone he is unbeatable based on the second mark.

Well it might come from fans who know that PCS =/= artistry.

 

[Celine]

Speaks to all that is so very different, and more challenging and heightened (pressures, expectations, tightened timelines) during an Olympic season. Remove a variable and improve your odds of success. Ubers will hate it but it sounds awfully strategic to me. At the same time, it makes me appreciate (or should make one appreciate) all the more when a top athlete DOES go to the effort to completely create from the ground up, material that is new AND that works.

 

[Mrs. P]

Speaks to all that is so very different, and more challenging and heightened (pressures, expectations, tightened timelines) during an Olympic season. Remove a variable and improve your odds of success. Ubers will hate it but it sounds awfully strategic to me. At the same time, it makes me appreciate (or should make one appreciate) all the more when a top athlete DOES go to the effort to completely create from the ground up, material that is new AND that works.

This is kind of my take as well. I don't blame Yuzu for wanting to mitigate some of the perils he encountered at the previous Olympics. Given that the men do not have a day off between SP and FS and he's upping the TES on his program, it might be worth not trying to go crazy on new choreography.

That said, I"m glad there are skaters who are giving us new programs and trying new things (to the extent that they are able) during the Olympic season.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Is Adam getting all new programs? Since he wasn't able to perform them at Nationals, do you think he will keep his programs from last year?

SP Music: "Diamonds" from Rihanna performed by Adam Rippon
FS Music: "Arrival of the Birds" by The Cinematic Orchestra and "O" by Coldplay

So keeping FS and a new SP. Conflicting info on whether "performed by" means he is singing it or if it's the cover version he performed at shows but the consensus seems to be it's Adam singing :shocked:

The original version of "Diamonds" Adam used as his SOI number was by Josef Salvat. It's a gorgeous version and was skated beautifully.

 

[Interspectator]

This is kind of my take as well. I don't blame Yuzu for wanting to mitigate some of the perils he encountered at the previous Olympics. Given that the men do not have a day off between SP and FS and he's upping the TES on his program, it might be worth not trying to go crazy on new choreography.

That said, I"m glad there are skaters who are giving us new programs and trying new things (to the extent that they are able) during the Olympic season.

To add to this, I'm also envious of the many people who watch Figure Skating only during the Olympics, (like me watching so many other sports) who get to see Yuzu's Chopin and SEIMEI for the first time. As a front runner and someone who will be in the spotlight as a favorite to medal, I'm glad that potential fans get to see these programs. They are complex, interesting and highlight some of the best parts of figure skating.

 

[Ophelia]

Repeating one program is already bad enough but repeating 2 is just poor. Figure skating is not just about getting as much points as possible but also entertaining the crowd. No matter how great the program is, having to watch a program at an Olympic you've already watched performed 10 times before is bound to be some what stale. Also it's unfair on other skaters who have actually spent time working on new choreo and new quads and not just upping their difficulty

Competitive figure skating is about winning. Exhibitions and ice shows are about entertaining the crowd. Probably 98% of the global audience who tunes in wouldn't have seen the program performed 10 times before.

 

[4everchan]

Tell Vivaldi to not write a concerto 600 times over and over again. Or Bach should not copy and paste his cantatas from time to time.

I don't think it's appropriate to compare composers to athletes... just saying.

 

[andromache]

Competitive figure skating is about winning. Exhibitions and ice shows are about entertaining the crowd. Probably 98% of the global audience who tunes in wouldn't have seen the program performed 10 times before.

Then what, exactly, is stopping Ashley from re-using Moulin Rouge? Or Javi from re-using Malaguena and Sinatra? Maybe Evgenia should've used the same music and choreography for both program from 2016 onwards?

Man, I hope Sui/Han use both of the same exact programs from last season - that will show everyone that they really want to win!

 

[Mrs. P]

To add to this, I'm also envious of the many people who watch Figure Skating only during the Olympics, (like me watching so many other sports) who get to see Yuzu's Chopin and SEIMEI for the first time. As a front runner and someone who will be in the spotlight as a favorite to medal, I'm glad that potential fans get to see these programs. They are complex, interesting and highlight some of the best parts of figure skating.

Yes, which is why I'm not strongly against Yuzu making this decision. As someone who saw him implode in person on this very wonderful program at one of the biggest stages for figure skating - (i.e. 2016 Worlds)- there is a certain amount of unfinished business and what better way to resolve it than on even a bigger stage -- the Olympics.

But if nothing else, it reinforces why it's good that people like Jason Brown exists -- having Hamilton potentially on the worlds biggest stage is also pretty cool. Yuzu shouldn't have the burden to push the artistic envelope alone. I get that he is an amazing GOAT skater, but I'm just as cool if some other skater ---hello Loena Hendrix and her Frozen (Madonna, not Disney) SP -- is playing that role of advancing the sport in performance and artistry. And of course that doesn't preclude Yuzu from pushing the artistry/performance envelope through a reworked Seimei/Chopin program.

Speaking of Jason Brown, his Prince SP was a popular program for many fans -- new costume, reworked choreography -- I think few people care that he did it the season before. Rohene called it marinating the program -- given there is some time since we saw Yuzu do Seimei --- there is probably some good marinating potential here.