I don't feel like reading the entire thread, but frankly I'm surprised that anyone would think Irina was faking such a serious illness. I do hope Irina retires from skating and takes care of herself after Torino - I know she loves skating but health is more important.
Russian article on Irina (not good news)
- Thread starter Kwanford Wife
- Start date
FreeKatie said:
Health is definitely more important.
And Havanamesa is not the only one who has doubts about Irina's illnesses; and this forum also isn't the only place where such doubts have been raised.
Bottom line: not everyone thinks alike and neither should everyone -- such as posters on this board -- be expected to. Some people are easily convinced, some are not; some choose to believe, some don't. As havanamesa said, it's that simple. It's amazing to see this obsession with forcing everyone to think the same way of Irina and then ganging up on those who have other views.
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First off, although I'm glad some folks got a good laugh over my sarcastic post on page 4 (argg, another tome; I do try not to try people's patience, really) but now that it's out of my system, I must say in all seriousness that I do not support or recommend that approach to dealing with differences of opinion.
I've been at the bottom of a dogpile myself (no offense to doggies, Doggygirl and other dog lovers), in fact many times before I honestly changed my views on a certain skater because she had changed certain aspects of her skating. I also got riled when I saw those who weren't in agreement with the majority get "the treatment" and ITA with Red Dog when he says it is "not the best feeling to be ganged up on...definitely not."
So why would I, someone who has been ganged up on and has hated seeing others ganged up on, write such a snarky post? I'll refer to Red Dog again in the last part of his recent post:
OTOH, sometimes humor can work better than a serious approach. However, I prefer Mathman's approach in his Post #89 to my own. Let's just say the combination of your opinions and the way you presented them "hit a nerve" from many years of working in the Rehab and Workers' Comp industry where I saw doctors ruin the lives of truly injured people by knowingly and intentionally lying far, far more often than I saw malingerers get away with a big Workers' Comp settlement while they were either secretly working as a mechanic for a relative or lying around drinking beer while collecting fat checks at the taxpayer's expense. However, that being my experience, in a civilized response I would have explained that and why your--Havanamesa and JanJam's comments--made me particularly cranky and likely to be rude to you right back.
This is JMO, of course, but I think that if GSers come into a thread that is supportive of a skater or issue and express their opposing opinions in needling manner, they should steel themselves for some pointed remarks in response. Not the best etiquette in a general forum, but it is human nature.
BTW, Havanamesa and JanJam, either one or both of you expressed that things used to be more tolerant at GS, or words to that effect. I disagree. Supporters of certain skaters got their teeth kicked in every time they expressed their support. Likewise, when a minority of GSers expressed that they were NOT a fan of certain skaters, again, the razorblades came out. Having gone from being a nonfan of a certain skater to pretty much a fan, I've certainly felt the change toward me by a number of people. Of course many treated me the same before and after I had my change of opinion.
IMO, things have gotten more tolerant at GS primarily because of three things: (a) There's a greater variety of opinions among people on the board; (b) the moderators have tried their very utmost, and never with enough thanks, to make sure that no person or group of a certain opinion be ostracized; and (c) those who were attacked for their opinions spoke up about it and once they did--a brave act in and of itself--others, including mods, spoke up about the unfair attacks as well, whether they agreed with the person or not.
So of course I feel you are entitled to your opinion. However, just as the administrator's advice before posting is to read for a while so you're familiar with the tone and tenor of what's considered acceptable, borderline, and going too far, IMO, perhaps we could all do ourselves and the forum well to consider how we're going to express contrary opinions on a thread that is supportive of a skater or issue. Again, JMO.
Besides, it's the Olympics and I think we all know how raw nerves can get during The Big O.
And now I'm going to watch the original version of "The Producers," the greatest contrarion success of all time, instead of "Skating with the Stars" because I just can't put myself through watching the latter anymore.
No offense intended to those who love it. :chorus:
Rgirl
P.S. I still love reading the occasional well-written and well-deserved snarky post and confess I can't help myself from trying my hand at them myself. Wouldn't be GS without a little b-------- slapping now and then. Bad Rgirl.
I've been at the bottom of a dogpile myself (no offense to doggies, Doggygirl and other dog lovers), in fact many times before I honestly changed my views on a certain skater because she had changed certain aspects of her skating. I also got riled when I saw those who weren't in agreement with the majority get "the treatment" and ITA with Red Dog when he says it is "not the best feeling to be ganged up on...definitely not."
So why would I, someone who has been ganged up on and has hated seeing others ganged up on, write such a snarky post? I'll refer to Red Dog again in the last part of his recent post:
I'm not trying to say, "It's okay for me to be snide and sarcastic because you guys were first." There should be better ways than a long crackpot post to make it clear that (a) you disagree with the opinions of one or more posters, and (b) that you also find the way in which they expressed their opinions rude and objectionable.Red Dog said:
OTOH, sometimes humor can work better than a serious approach. However, I prefer Mathman's approach in his Post #89 to my own. Let's just say the combination of your opinions and the way you presented them "hit a nerve" from many years of working in the Rehab and Workers' Comp industry where I saw doctors ruin the lives of truly injured people by knowingly and intentionally lying far, far more often than I saw malingerers get away with a big Workers' Comp settlement while they were either secretly working as a mechanic for a relative or lying around drinking beer while collecting fat checks at the taxpayer's expense. However, that being my experience, in a civilized response I would have explained that and why your--Havanamesa and JanJam's comments--made me particularly cranky and likely to be rude to you right back.
This is JMO, of course, but I think that if GSers come into a thread that is supportive of a skater or issue and express their opposing opinions in needling manner, they should steel themselves for some pointed remarks in response. Not the best etiquette in a general forum, but it is human nature.
BTW, Havanamesa and JanJam, either one or both of you expressed that things used to be more tolerant at GS, or words to that effect. I disagree. Supporters of certain skaters got their teeth kicked in every time they expressed their support. Likewise, when a minority of GSers expressed that they were NOT a fan of certain skaters, again, the razorblades came out. Having gone from being a nonfan of a certain skater to pretty much a fan, I've certainly felt the change toward me by a number of people. Of course many treated me the same before and after I had my change of opinion.
IMO, things have gotten more tolerant at GS primarily because of three things: (a) There's a greater variety of opinions among people on the board; (b) the moderators have tried their very utmost, and never with enough thanks, to make sure that no person or group of a certain opinion be ostracized; and (c) those who were attacked for their opinions spoke up about it and once they did--a brave act in and of itself--others, including mods, spoke up about the unfair attacks as well, whether they agreed with the person or not.
So of course I feel you are entitled to your opinion. However, just as the administrator's advice before posting is to read for a while so you're familiar with the tone and tenor of what's considered acceptable, borderline, and going too far, IMO, perhaps we could all do ourselves and the forum well to consider how we're going to express contrary opinions on a thread that is supportive of a skater or issue. Again, JMO.
Besides, it's the Olympics and I think we all know how raw nerves can get during The Big O.
And now I'm going to watch the original version of "The Producers," the greatest contrarion success of all time, instead of "Skating with the Stars" because I just can't put myself through watching the latter anymore.
No offense intended to those who love it. :chorus:Rgirl
P.S. I still love reading the occasional well-written and well-deserved snarky post and confess I can't help myself from trying my hand at them myself. Wouldn't be GS without a little b-------- slapping now and then. Bad Rgirl.
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We occasionally can be "off edge" at times. It happens to all of us...we all seem to "lose it" at some point or another. But some people can tolerate more than others. That's just the way conversation is, both on the internet and in person. At least that's my experience. JMO
Personally, I will admit that I don't like sarcastic/"smart aleck" posts. I also steer clear of making them myself. They just set me off edge. Now, a couple (IMO) are actually funny (typically if they're short and direct), but others just drive me nuts. Lots of other people may very well enjoy those same posts.
One thing has been very clear during my four years posting/lurking here, and that is that there will ALWAYS be disagreements among certain fan groups...typically the same fan groups at that. And many of those disagreements will become heated and turn into "our view vs. their view turned personal." There is typically a poster that really lays into the opposing side or "offending party", and then what follows is something I like to call "cheerleading". That means that there are follow-ups from the same side saying things like "Good post!!", "Well said!", "I was going to say something like that, but you took the words right out of my mouth!", stuff like that. Then the retorts follow, and it just escalates into this verbal brawl. Or I should say verbal beating. as typically one side gets far more jabs in than the other. (In other words, one side's got the numbers- it's 10 against 1 or 13 against 2.) Anyway, this is not the format of a debate. It's a thrashing.
I'd like to add, also, that many of these "brawls" are started by rather strong-worded statements. For example, if someone started a post saying "I hate Michelle Kwan," I could just imagine the thrashing that's going to occur. Even if the poster attempts to give an explanation...
I honestly don't know why I'm posting this, but here goes. Note that I'm not choosing to condemn a particular side or poster or group of posters here. These are just my observations after witnessing, participating in, and being pushed into in many of these "brawls".
Personally, I will admit that I don't like sarcastic/"smart aleck" posts. I also steer clear of making them myself. They just set me off edge. Now, a couple (IMO) are actually funny (typically if they're short and direct), but others just drive me nuts. Lots of other people may very well enjoy those same posts.
One thing has been very clear during my four years posting/lurking here, and that is that there will ALWAYS be disagreements among certain fan groups...typically the same fan groups at that. And many of those disagreements will become heated and turn into "our view vs. their view turned personal." There is typically a poster that really lays into the opposing side or "offending party", and then what follows is something I like to call "cheerleading". That means that there are follow-ups from the same side saying things like "Good post!!", "Well said!", "I was going to say something like that, but you took the words right out of my mouth!", stuff like that. Then the retorts follow, and it just escalates into this verbal brawl. Or I should say verbal beating. as typically one side gets far more jabs in than the other. (In other words, one side's got the numbers- it's 10 against 1 or 13 against 2.) Anyway, this is not the format of a debate. It's a thrashing.
I'd like to add, also, that many of these "brawls" are started by rather strong-worded statements. For example, if someone started a post saying "I hate Michelle Kwan," I could just imagine the thrashing that's going to occur. Even if the poster attempts to give an explanation...
I honestly don't know why I'm posting this, but here goes. Note that I'm not choosing to condemn a particular side or poster or group of posters here. These are just my observations after witnessing, participating in, and being pushed into in many of these "brawls".
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2003
JanJam said:
JanJam why do you have doubts about Irina's illnesses? What facts can you give to refute her doctors diagnosis? If you have some information about vasculitis that the rest of us are not aware of I would love to know what it is...seriously beause I will certainly pass it on to my doctor. A medial diagnosis is not opinion but fact. With vasculitis you either have it or you don't as it is diagnosed by a biopsy that actually shows the vasculitis. You must have a definite diagnosis because the treatment is too dangerous to risk giving it to someone who does not actually have the disease. I am not an Irina fan at all. I dislike her skating, think that she is overmarked and held up, heck I don't even enjoy her bubbly personality. I also think that team Slutskaya and sports commentators have milked her and her mother's illnesses for as much "good will" from the judges and ratings points as they possibly can. That said, I still do not doubt her having this illness.
Piel said:
Actually, it's funny, because I feel the SAME WAY. However, I don't even think Irina has a "bubbly" personality. I believe (keyword: BELIEVE) that is just a show for the cameras. Articles I've read indicate she's a totally different person off camera.
Now, I could be wrong. I could be way off base from reality. But this is what I BELIEVE. And no one's differing opinions can change that.
I can't speak for those who don't believe she is ill, but is your reason similar to mine (for thinking Irina is basically "two-faced")?
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
Red Dog said:
Irina is very competitive. I think she gets very upset when she does not win events, and I have read on some of her fan sites that she admits to feeling jaded and that she should have been given more titles than she has. She does not blame Tara Lipinski passing her by in 97, and winning the GP final and Worlds, while Irina settled for 3rd and 4th, when she believed she would be the one to take over on top if Michelle faltered(which she did)on letting herself get out of shape and making major errors in the years final events as she did(I actually believe she would have won Worlds in 97 with the same long she did had she not fallen in the short, by finishing 2nd to Kwan in the long, and 1st in the short), but on judges anointing a new starlet above her. She does not blame losing the 2000 Worlds to Michelle, 2001 Worlds to Michelle, and 2002 Olympics to Sarah, on making 1 or 2 key mistakes that cost her gold to a flawless performance, but on judges being somehow decked against her each time. So yes I think she has a different personality that you dont see on the camera.
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2003
I do think that she has two very different sides to her personality the bubbly "It is just sport, ha,ha,ha!" and the "I wuz robbed!" from SLC (these are NOT direct quotes). But hey who doesn't ? That doesn't really bother me because I don't think her intent is to make people think that she is all sugar and spice when she is not....what I would describe as two faced. I really just don't care for bubbly personalities past age 10, so don't even get me started on Tara Lipinski and now Katy Taylor........where is that gagging smiley?.Red Dog said:
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Personally I don't doubt anybody who's ill. I'd been sick (cold) for about 3 months last year and I get sick again during Xmas and again last week and I'm still not well today. And it is only cold. It is not something pleasant and nobody wants it. So get well Irina! Be your best in Turin. I don't care who wins except in pair. Anyway whoever skate best should win. Good luck!
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- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
Red Dog said:
Skaters CAN have different personalities on ice and off ice, and I see nothing wrong with it. Irina is not the only one with a different on-ice personality. I am sure she is a very different person in her personal life. Whether you find her bubbly or not is a matter of perception. Each of us has a different perception about someone's personality. However, medical facts are just facts. They don't depend some someone's perception alone. Irina's medical condition has been diagnosed by physicians, publicized, and she has overcome the obstacles. I think how she appears on or off the camera is not relevant here, but you are entitled to your opinion.
Vash
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2004
Have there been any updates on Irina's health for us dillusional, naive fans who, while guillable, are truly concerned about her?
Piel & Rgirl... see, my efforts to be more like you two are paying off... I resisted the temptation to call two fellow posters not so nice... aren't you proud?
edited for profanity... i hate when MM erases my posts & cannot be banned prior to Feb. 23rd...
Piel & Rgirl... see, my efforts to be more like you two are paying off... I resisted the temptation to call two fellow posters not so nice... aren't you proud?
edited for profanity... i hate when MM erases my posts & cannot be banned prior to Feb. 23rd...
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2004
I should hope not ... as I assume you'd get a one-way ticket to jail if she did!!!
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