Ryan Bradley on Kaetlyn Osmond

[nocturnalis]

See.. I know all the Americans are worried about this but I think it will be fine. I think Ashley will do better with the UR and I still think Gracie Gold can pull it together. She just needs..something. And you others like Mariah Bell or Courtney Hicks who could rise to the occasion. I think a lot will depend on how those three Russian ladies do. And if Satoko gets the calls or not. If Satoko doesn't get called for URs she is right in there again for the top 3. If she does she could be as low as 8th I think. Carolina is such a wild card who knows. But those 3 Russian ladies (whichever ones get sent) are the real key. They could sweep the podium and then it will be a hard for any other team to get 3 ladies to the Olympics.

If Shin Amano is the caller for the WC I'd bet money that Satoko won't medal and Ashley will struggle to be top 5 and the Russian sweep will be very likely and then only the Russians will get 3 ladies. If it is any other caller I think Satoko will medal and Ashley will be at least top 6 which means the other American lady would only have to be top 7. There just isn't a lot of room if the Russians sweep.

Why do people keep forgetting that Shin Amano was the caller at 2015 Worlds when Satoko got a silver medal?

 

[lyndichee]

The music at the ending is the part where Mimi is dying and then actually DIES, not where she is suddenly stricken with consumption (TB). Mimi has had TB from the very beginning of the opera, although she doesn't realize how sick she is until midway through the opera when she overhears Rodolfo telling Marcello that he is worried that she doesn't have long to live.

The music at the beginning of the program is also Mimi's, where she meets Rodolfo. The middle part is Musetta's Waltz. Musetta is a completely different character, a blithe, flirty person who is also Mimi's close friend.

Kaetlyn can play Mimi, or she can play Musetta, or she can play both, but she CANNOT play Mimi at the end of the program, since Mimi is dying/dead. She can play Musetta mourning Mimi's death, but no more than that.

BTW, both Mimi and Musetta make a living by um....consorting with men, as neither have any money, family or useful skills. Their respective lovers cannot support them as they are starving artists themselves.

I often wonder if skaters do any research at all on the opera music they use.

If you are trying to throw shade and trying to call Kaetlyn and Jeff Buttle stupid, I think you're literally just nitpicking to find problems to pick at.

I highly doubt most skaters will get choreography that stays true to the story they interpret. Ashley's Moulin Rouge didn't follow the actual story. Hindi Sad Diamonds was at the beginning of her program and One Day I'll Fly Away was closer towards the middle. As well, Ashley didn't die at the end of her program like Satine did.

 

[TGee]

I think that the straw men are being put before us again....

Definitely, there are some fans that take the view that if a skater uses a piece of music, the must skate the role as in the usual opera or ballet...

But not only is this not a universal view in skating, in serious dance, there is a whole school of thought that takes classic music such as by Tchaikovsky, and choreographs it in an entirely abstract manner., and others that take the overall theme, but not the specific storytelling detail...

So, while there certainly are some skaters are telling a specific story with their programs, I am finding that current apparent incentives to make the program a piece of storytelling truly unfortunate....

I happen prefer abstract ballet to "storybook" ballet, although I can always appreciate the classics when executed with excellence. Locking skating, as a global sport, locking choreography into one or the other would be disasterous in my view...

 

[4everchan]

ermmm..

look... i have seen la bohème many times... and yes... some skaters take opera at first degree and perform the characters from it... that's one way of doing it... however, some will get a gist of the story to inspire their own characters.... and finally, as a third option, a skater could use the music of an opera as incidental music and perform it without a story.... it doesn't always have to be taken so literally....

there is no written rule in figure skating that says that Mimi dies so skater must die... and what not... actually, there is a rule that says... you must not lay on the ice ... probably because ISU wanted to avoid so many skaters to die.... with all the women killed, murdered, or dead in opera, let's give our skating ladies a break... let them skate on these operas because the music itself is wonderful for skating programs... and not think about... omg... she has tuberculosis... she's ganna die...

The music at the ending is the part where Mimi is dying and then actually DIES, not where she is suddenly stricken with consumption (TB). Mimi has had TB from the very beginning of the opera, although she doesn't realize how sick she is until midway through the opera when she overhears Rodolfo telling Marcello that he is worried that she doesn't have long to live.

The music at the beginning of the program is also Mimi's, where she meets Rodolfo. The middle part is Musetta's Waltz. Musetta is a completely different character, a blithe, flirty person who is also Mimi's close friend.

Kaetlyn can play Mimi, or she can play Musetta, or she can play both, but she CANNOT play Mimi at the end of the program, since Mimi is dying/dead. She can play Musetta mourning Mimi's death, but no more than that.

BTW, both Mimi and Musetta make a living by um....consorting with men, as neither have any money, family or useful skills. Their respective lovers cannot support them as they are starving artists themselves.

I often wonder if skaters do any research at all on the opera music they use.

 

[4everchan]

See.. I know all the Americans are worried about this but I think it will be fine. I think Ashley will do better with the UR and I still think Gracie Gold can pull it together. She just needs..something. And you others like Mariah Bell or Courtney Hicks who could rise to the occasion. I think a lot will depend on how those three Russian ladies do. And if Satoko gets the calls or not. If Satoko doesn't get called for URs she is right in there again for the top 3. If she does she could be as low as 8th I think. Carolina is such a wild card who knows. But those 3 Russian ladies (whichever ones get sent) are the real key. They could sweep the podium and then it will be a hard for any other team to get 3 ladies to the Olympics.

If Shin Amano is the caller for the WC I'd bet money that Satoko won't medal and Ashley will struggle to be top 5 and the Russian sweep will be very likely and then only the Russians will get 3 ladies. If it is any other caller I think Satoko will medal and Ashley will be at least top 6 which means the other American lady would only have to be top 7. There just isn't a lot of room if the Russians sweep.

russian sweep or not, it has no incidence on Canada or other countries getting 3 spots... as long as the magic number is 13 or below...
Gabby and Kaetlyn could finish 6-7 or 5-8 and the job would be done...

Here's a scenario were everyone gets 3 spots

1 russia
2 russia
3 russia
4 japan
5 usa
6 canada
7 canada
8 usa
9 japan

 

[ancientpeas]

russian sweep or not, it has no incidence on Canada or other countries getting 3 spots... as long as the magic number is 13 or below...
Gabby and Kaetlyn could finish 6-7 or 5-8 and the job would be done...

Here's a scenario were everyone gets 3 spots

1 russia
2 russia
3 russia
4 japan
5 usa
6 canada
7 canada
8 usa
9 japan

Ah.. fun with math! True that could work. But it would be a lot easier without a Russian sweep.

Why do people keep forgetting that Shin Amano was the caller at 2015 Worlds when Satoko got a silver medal?

Did he? Alright how about I put it this way: Lately it seems that Shin Amano is really calling the UR a lot and Satoko seems to get dinged by him regularly thus making her getting a medal less likely? Or maybe she is just UR more often when he's the caller? Both are possible. I'll say this: If Satoko does not UR at worlds she is probably going to win a medal (provided she doesn't do a Zamboni impersonation).




Be proud of me. It's my very first multiquote.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Lately it seems that Shin Amano is really calling the UR a lot and Satoko seems to get dinged by him regularly thus making her getting a medal less likely? Or maybe she is just UR more often when he's the caller? Both are possible. I'll say this: If Satoko does not UR at worlds she is probably going to win a medal (provided she doesn't do a Zamboni impersonation).

The calls for the women seemed somewhat generous at the GPF, relative to how jumps were scored in most of the GP events. I think it is so important for these callers to be more consistent across events, because UR and edge call penalties are so severe that even a few calls swinging one way or the other can have a huge impact on the ordering of the skaters.

 

[Violet Bliss]

This is an interesting discussion for me to think aloud here.

There are options as to what a skater may do with a piece of music, even one from an opera with a story attached. There is a difference between acting a role and portraying a character, between telling the story or explicating the emotions, and then, within the few minutes of the selected cut of the music, there is a choice of doing any of the above in part or whole of the drama. I suppose this is considered interpretation of the music where skaters and choreographers combine their talents to bring out different feelings from the viewers.

As a comparison relating to Chuckm's criticism of Kaetlyn's staying alive in her LP, this season Zijun Li chooses to act out the death of the character as in the movie though the song is mostly about emotions. This part of the choreography has drawn negative opinions. On interpretation of music, I love Patrick's Aranjuez which depicts a spiritual journey, so well suited to his sublime skating skills. No dramatic acting and facial expressions there.

 

[chuckm]

If you are trying to throw shade and trying to call Kaetlyn and Jeff Buttle stupid, I think you're literally just nitpicking to find problems to pick at.

I highly doubt most skaters will get choreography that stays true to the story they interpret. Ashley's Moulin Rouge didn't follow the actual story. Hindi Sad Diamonds was at the beginning of her program and One Day I'll Fly Away was closer towards the middle. As well, Ashley didn't die at the end of her program like Satine did.

Ashley didn't use the music from the beginning, middle and end of the musical as Kaetlyn did of the opera.

Osmond4gold's description "a young lady in her prime suddenly stricken with consumption (TB), whose allure is heightened by physical decline..."

sounds a lot more like the heroine Violetta of La Traviata than it does like Mimi of La Boheme. And Kaetlyn's performance looks more like Violetta than Mimi/Musetta.

Why didn't they just use the Verdi music instead of the Puccini?

 

[chuckm]

ermmm..

look... i have seen la bohème many times... and yes... some skaters take opera at first degree and perform the characters from it... that's one way of doing it... however, some will get a gist of the story to inspire their own characters.... and finally, as a third option, a skater could use the music of an opera as incidental music and perform it without a story.... it doesn't always have to be taken so literally....

there is no written rule in figure skating that says that Mimi dies so skater must die... and what not... actually, there is a rule that says... you must not lay on the ice ... probably because ISU wanted to avoid so many skaters to die.... with all the women killed, murdered, or dead in opera, let's give our skating ladies a break... let them skate on these operas because the music itself is wonderful for skating programs... and not think about... omg... she has tuberculosis... she's ganna die...

Then why use the music from the death aria? There are so many other lovely and/or dramatic passages in Boheme.

 

[withwings]

Then why use the music from the death aria? There are so many other lovely and/or dramatic passages in Boheme.

Oh.... it seems that there is nothing else for you to do as to find faults in Kaetlyn's skating. If you do no like her so much why to destroy your own peace?

 

[chuckm]

IMO the way the music is arranged is illogical and doesn't make it easier for Kaetlyn, because it forces her to make an abrupt transition from happy Musetta to tragic Mimi/Musetta. And she has to do this at the end of the program when she needs to pay attention to landing that last combination.

 

[NanaPat]

Oh.... it seems that there is nothing else for you to do as to find faults in Kaetlyn's skating. If you do no like her so much why to destroy your own peace?

Maybe Chukm can join Rosie DiManno of the Toronto Star and complain about the number of pieces of music that Kaetlyn has done that were about protitutes. She gets quite heated on the issue!

Personally, I prefer abstract programs to "story-telling" programs and "story-telling" programs to literal, mimed programs. I like to pretend I've never heard of the opera and go from there.

 

[lyndichee]

IMO the way the music is arranged is illogical and doesn't make it easier for Kaetlyn, because it forces her to make an abrupt transition from happy Musetta to tragic Mimi/Musetta. And she has to do this at the end of the program when she needs to pay attention to landing that last combination.

Do you really want to fault Kaetlyn for this? Or do you want to fault another Canadian like Jeffrey Buttle? Does her music take away from her skating skills? Does this arrangement of music suddenly make her SS slower and her jumps smaller? Or does this over-analysis that you don't apply to other skaters make you feel better about yourself and make you feel "smarter" than Canadians?

 

[Arriba627]

look... i have seen la bohème many times... and yes... some skaters take opera at first degree and perform the characters from it... that's one way of doing it... however, some will get a gist of the story to inspire their own characters....
there is no written rule in figure skating that says that Mimi dies so skater must die... and what not... actually, there is a rule that says... you must not lay on the ice ... probably because ISU wanted to avoid so many skaters to die.... with all the women killed, murdered, or dead in opera, let's give our skating ladies a break... let them skate on these operas because the music itself is wonderful for skating programs... and not think about... omg... she has tuberculosis... she's ganna die...

and finally, as a third option, a skater could use the music of an opera as incidental music and perform it without a story.... it doesn't always have to be taken so literally....


I have seen this opera several times and didn't think about the story too much while Kaetlyn was skating to it. Sounds like I might be in the minority, but I just LOVE this music for her.

 

[Osmond4gold]

Changing it up a bit here and my apologies for even mentioning ...LaBoheme, ...:curse: After all...it's a play about nothing (sorry Seinfeld), but the music is exquisite.

As we know, Kaetlyn has not had as many competitive opportunities as other elite skaters over the past several years and some only consider past winnings as a measurement of success. Given this fact, perhaps Kaetlyn’s success can be measured another way. Consider Kaetlyn’s GP history as an example;

2012 - Won Skate Canada in first ever appearance in a GP, but no other assignments, given her youth and 1st time at the senior GP level (a Mariah Bell situation).

2013 - Skated only the short program and then had to withdraw before the long program due to recurrent stress fracture. Out for the rest of the GP season.

2014 – Broke her ankle in Sept. in a skating accident, not of her doing. Missed the entire season as she was in rehab. for the year and was a questionable return to the sport.

2015 – After being away for a year, she started training again in Sept. Did okay in the short at Skate Canada at 4th, but had a LP that was indicative of where she was in her return to the sport, finishing 11th, with a LP score of 86.85…I know..., but being back on the ice was the real prize!

Also, competed at NHK with a much better performance and 6th place overall.

2016 – A redemption year, finishing 2nd at Skate Canada behind the World Champion with a personal best score, and also 2nd at the Cup of China. Qualifies for the Grand Prix Final.

So in 5 years, she had 5 full competition appearances (pre-final) and has medaled in 3. That’s a 60% ratio of podium success. If you remove the outlier (2015, as she was skating a few weeks only after returning) that’s a 100% podium finishes, a 3/3 in pre-final GP events. Overall, her ratio including the final for GP events is 3/6, 50%.

Not bad for a skater some have characterized, as an inconsistent performer!

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Not bad for a skater some have characterized, as an inconsistent performer!

Her performance ability is consistently strong; I think it is fair to say she is inconsistent in delivering the technical goods. To make a World or Olympic podium (in singles), she has to land 10 triples over two programs. Unfortunately for Kaetlyn, a well-executed jump doesn't score much better than a small jump with steps on the entrance and exit, so no one can afford to double the jumps if she wants to medal. If she can churn out 10 jumps like the Russians, Kaetlyn will be rewarded handsomely in the marks. She has effectively closed the PCS gap against every other skater except Evgenia so there is still room for her marks to rise if she continues to skate well.

 

[4everchan]

Chuckm. Let's keep this short : how can a 4 minute programme really go into character analysis and portray it on ice? An opera takes 2/3 hours to do so. That's why skaters choose music they like to often have a global theme but not necessarily following the plot. With all the time you've followed this sport I'm wondering why you're picking on Kaetlyn.

 

[artsciboy]

Changing it up a bit here and my apologies for even mentioning ...LaBoheme, ...:curse:

As we know, Kaetlyn has not had as many competitive opportunities as other elite skaters over the past several years and some only consider past winnings as a measurement of success. Given this fact, perhaps Kaetlyn’s success can be measured another way. Consider Kaetlyn’s GP history as an example;

2012 - Won Skate Canada in first ever appearance in a GP, but no other assignments, given her youth and 1st time at the senior GP level (a Mariah Bell situation).

2013 - Skated only the short program and then had to withdraw before the long program due to recurrent stress fracture. Out for the rest of the GP season.

2014 – Broke her ankle in Sept. in a skating accident, not of her doing. Missed the entire season as she was in rehab. for the year and was a questionable return to the sport.

2015 – After being away for a year, she started training again in Sept. Did okay in the short at Skate Canada at 4th, but had a LP that was indicative of where she was in her return to the sport, finishing 11th, with a LP score of 86.85…I know..., but being back on the ice was the real prize!

Also, competed at NHK with a much better performance and 6th place overall.

2016 – A redemption year, finishing 2nd at Skate Canada behind the World Champion with a personal best score, and also 2nd at the Cup of China. Qualifies for the Grand Prix Final.

So in 5 years, she had 5 full competition appearances (pre-final) and has medaled in 3. That’s a 60% ratio of podium success. If you remove the outlier (2015, as she was skating a few weeks only after returning) that’s a 100% podium finishes, a 3/3 in pre-final GP events. Overall, her ratio including the final for GP events is 3/6, 50%.

Not bad for a skater some have characterized, as an inconsistent performer!

While I appreciate that you have stressed that you are only looking at the pre-GPF history and essentially acknowledged the limitations of this data, you're still ultimately promoting this as her somehow not being an inconsistent performer / applause-worthy from a winnings perspective. However, when you look at her results on the backend: Nationals, Worlds, 4CC, Olympics, etc., she is indeed an inconsistent performer and has yet to breakthrough at the major competitions. She's having a very good season thus far, but time will tell if she will follow her pattern to date of doing relatively well on the GP circuit as you have pointed out and then poorly at the major international events. She has all the tools to make an impact at that level of competition, but has yet to deliver.

 

[Osmond4gold]

She's having a very good season thus far, but time will tell if she will follow her pattern to date of doing relatively well on the GP circuit as you have pointed out and then poorly at the major international events. She has all the tools to make an impact at that level of competition, but has yet to deliver.

Gosh artsciboy...are you actually coming around? That's almost half in agreeable here. Sarah Synchro was right, hell has frozen over!