Sasha Since 1999?
- Thread starter Piel
- Start date
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
ITA, Piel - I never saw that competition. Was not NNN in that also which I would like to see.
I wouldn't say Sasha didn't improve. I would say she already had the whole package right then and there. By the time 2000 came around, I just saw the same thing but I was convinced this was going to be the next teenager to win the Olys in 2002.
Of course she had that back injury which she duly took care of, but when she returned to skate that GP, she decided to go for the quad. Big Big Mistake. It took all that feistiness out of her which I admired.
But she plugged away and by 2004, was again the odds on favorite for her Swan Lake in Dortmund. 2005 was Irina's comeback and no one was going to take it away from Irina in Moscow.
But Irina faltered in 2005 GPs against Mao, and it seemed that Sasha would be at least the at same odds as Irina for the win in 2006 Olys and definitely in 2006 World.
Sasha has to get rid of that dark cloud hanging over her for so long, but my question is: Is it too late?? Not only are the top Asian ladies looking good but so are Kimmie and Joannie, and Caroline if she get rid of her dark cloud.
It's not going to be easy for Sasha, imo, this coming season, but she still has a bit of the feistiness in her and maybe there will be a couple of 3x3s. Let's see.
Joe
I wouldn't say Sasha didn't improve. I would say she already had the whole package right then and there. By the time 2000 came around, I just saw the same thing but I was convinced this was going to be the next teenager to win the Olys in 2002.
Of course she had that back injury which she duly took care of, but when she returned to skate that GP, she decided to go for the quad. Big Big Mistake. It took all that feistiness out of her which I admired.
But she plugged away and by 2004, was again the odds on favorite for her Swan Lake in Dortmund. 2005 was Irina's comeback and no one was going to take it away from Irina in Moscow.
But Irina faltered in 2005 GPs against Mao, and it seemed that Sasha would be at least the at same odds as Irina for the win in 2006 Olys and definitely in 2006 World.
Sasha has to get rid of that dark cloud hanging over her for so long, but my question is: Is it too late?? Not only are the top Asian ladies looking good but so are Kimmie and Joannie, and Caroline if she get rid of her dark cloud.
It's not going to be easy for Sasha, imo, this coming season, but she still has a bit of the feistiness in her and maybe there will be a couple of 3x3s. Let's see.
Joe
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2003
I had not seen this clip of Sasha until today. It made me remember the Sasha from her first nationals. I loved that Sasha and was really excited about her skating. But when she came back from her back injury I did not feel the same about her skating. This disappointed me.
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2004
As I said in the video thread, she already had all of her trademark moves then. I was rather surprised as I didn't remember that. I also said that she doesn't look as thin there as she has the last few seasons and that's a good thing in my book. I think the fragility may be the result of growth in height not being equaled in weight, but -whatever the reason- she looks very sweet and much healthier in 1999. The pressure hadn't descended yet. However, I still think Sasha has the potential to skate memorable performances . It would be great to see them!
Red Dog said:
That has been my feeling. She had more attack back then and now seems trying so hard to fit into this perfect little ice princess mold on the ice. Granted, she has had back injuries and more pressure to contend with, so I'm sure that has been overwhelming.
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
I have not seen the 1999 clip but I saw Sasha for the first time at the 2000 USA and I thought she was going to be great. Well, she has been great in some ways but she has not won the championships she was expected to win. She won the USN only when Michelle did not compete there.
She always had the flexibility, lines, posture, innovative spins and spirals- all the things that make us look at her. I think her edging and speed have improved since 2000. It is still not as great as some of the other top skaters, but definitely an improvement that I attribute to her time with Tarasova. Another area where I have seen improvement is- she sells the music and the program better. In the past it was more like 'see how flexible I am'. Now I feel that she incorporates that flexibility and choreography better in the program as a whole. I still don't feel that her jumps have improved. Her double axel was always strong, and the lutz was always weak (big time flutzing). The landings on jumps other than the 2A are still weak. However, as a skater, performer, and competitor I feel that she has made progress over the years.
I have seen her get mentally stronger, a little bit each year. In 2002 she did not appear fragile; just inexperienced. After the 2002 the expectations of Sasha were sky high and the pressure really got to her. We saw that for a couple of years. However, at the 2004 worlds she had improved to the extent that she did not completely fall apart in her LP and was good enough for a silver. In 2005 she seemed to really pull herself together, and she lost only because Irina was fantastic in Moscow. At the 2006 Olympics it seemed like her demons were back when she fell on her first two jumps, but she rebounded and skated a strong program after that. In earlier years she would have fallen apart completely. At the 2006 worlds my feeling was that she was simply unprepared and may have misjudged it. IMO it was less about nerves and more about the lack of preparation.
If she takes a break from skating and comes back in a year, I expect to see a stronger competitor. I don't expect to see a big difference in her skating or jumping (they are likely to be weak but that has not hurt her so far in the eyes of the judges, except for the falls). However, she may learn to handle the nerves better- that seems to be in line with her progression.
Vash
She always had the flexibility, lines, posture, innovative spins and spirals- all the things that make us look at her. I think her edging and speed have improved since 2000. It is still not as great as some of the other top skaters, but definitely an improvement that I attribute to her time with Tarasova. Another area where I have seen improvement is- she sells the music and the program better. In the past it was more like 'see how flexible I am'. Now I feel that she incorporates that flexibility and choreography better in the program as a whole. I still don't feel that her jumps have improved. Her double axel was always strong, and the lutz was always weak (big time flutzing). The landings on jumps other than the 2A are still weak. However, as a skater, performer, and competitor I feel that she has made progress over the years.
I have seen her get mentally stronger, a little bit each year. In 2002 she did not appear fragile; just inexperienced. After the 2002 the expectations of Sasha were sky high and the pressure really got to her. We saw that for a couple of years. However, at the 2004 worlds she had improved to the extent that she did not completely fall apart in her LP and was good enough for a silver. In 2005 she seemed to really pull herself together, and she lost only because Irina was fantastic in Moscow. At the 2006 Olympics it seemed like her demons were back when she fell on her first two jumps, but she rebounded and skated a strong program after that. In earlier years she would have fallen apart completely. At the 2006 worlds my feeling was that she was simply unprepared and may have misjudged it. IMO it was less about nerves and more about the lack of preparation.
If she takes a break from skating and comes back in a year, I expect to see a stronger competitor. I don't expect to see a big difference in her skating or jumping (they are likely to be weak but that has not hurt her so far in the eyes of the judges, except for the falls). However, she may learn to handle the nerves better- that seems to be in line with her progression.
Vash
I think she already had her trademark Sashaness, if that makes sense, but her skating improved tremendously since then and now: faster, better quality and control of her positions that were already really good, better skating quality, etcetera. She didn't hold her positions or do them nearly as well as she does now.
Whether Sasha is winning titles or not, she definetely is a skater whose performances on the ice I really enjoy to watch always (much rather than those that win Worlds - with the exception of Arakawa of course). I sure hope that she will get more consistency in future, and think that sport psychologist would be a good idea for her. She needs to find the right balance of being competitive and concentrated at the competitions.
The first time I saw Sasha´s skating was from 2000 US Nationals short programme, I think. Her skating conquered me at once, and it and her presentation looked so ready in that young age already (maybe that is why some people have gotten the impression that she has not improved?). Also I had the great pleasure of being able to see her performances live as she competed in Finlandia Trophy in 2001. The audience did not know her at all and she got very little applause before her skating. After her short programme performance the applause was really thundering.
The first time I saw Sasha´s skating was from 2000 US Nationals short programme, I think. Her skating conquered me at once, and it and her presentation looked so ready in that young age already (maybe that is why some people have gotten the impression that she has not improved?). Also I had the great pleasure of being able to see her performances live as she competed in Finlandia Trophy in 2001. The audience did not know her at all and she got very little applause before her skating. After her short programme performance the applause was really thundering.
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I first watched Sasha at the 2002 Olympics sp and I was just WOW. For me, she was the first skater I watched that had the whole package-the jumps, the speed(her sp was faaast), the spirals, the expression and the presentation above all. And she was so young! I said to myself-she's going to be one of the great ones.
Now, 4 years later, I cannot say that I'm dissapointed, but she didn't get the medals I thought she would get yet. Of course, it hasn't been easy. Back injury, changing coaches and moving to the other site of the country 3 times, family problems, and that inconsistency that won't go away. She did have however, some wonderful moments(2004 SP, 2006 Olys among others) that will (in my eyes)stay in the history of the sport. I don't want to sound like she has retired already, because I really want her to stay. IMO, she has definately improved in some areas since 2000. She looks more stable, her edges seem stronger, she seems to have that incredible flexibility more in control. I agree with the person who said that Tarassova should get credit for that. Sasha's skating improved so much between 2002-2003. However, I find her to be also less 'fiery'-I don't know if that's an improvement. In 2000-2001-2002 she was more 'look at me I'm the best', and now she's not at all like that. I guess that comes with experience as well. I think the change in the way she presents herself comes from the fact that she realised that skating amazingly well and winning the Olys at 17 is not a piece of cake, and also from all the media pressure. It must be very very hard for her to listen to everyone talk about her 'unrealised' potential, and even more becquse, as she says herself, her expectations are the highest.
When I watch the old Sasha and then the 2005-2006 Sasha, I see two different skaters;1)better skating skills in general, even if she had the 'wow' factor since 2000, 2) when it comes to determination, dominance on the ice. She owned the ice in 2000-2002, she doesnt anymore. It's like she's scared of herself. She doesn't give it all, she doesnt skate her heart out every time, in 2004 worlds sp for example.
Conclusion of this very confusing post-Yes she has improved skating wise, but in the mean time she skates more 'carefully' in my eyes. Perhaps, for some, that's an improvement. I just wish she's give it 100% every time.
Now, 4 years later, I cannot say that I'm dissapointed, but she didn't get the medals I thought she would get yet. Of course, it hasn't been easy. Back injury, changing coaches and moving to the other site of the country 3 times, family problems, and that inconsistency that won't go away. She did have however, some wonderful moments(2004 SP, 2006 Olys among others) that will (in my eyes)stay in the history of the sport. I don't want to sound like she has retired already, because I really want her to stay. IMO, she has definately improved in some areas since 2000. She looks more stable, her edges seem stronger, she seems to have that incredible flexibility more in control. I agree with the person who said that Tarassova should get credit for that. Sasha's skating improved so much between 2002-2003. However, I find her to be also less 'fiery'-I don't know if that's an improvement. In 2000-2001-2002 she was more 'look at me I'm the best', and now she's not at all like that. I guess that comes with experience as well. I think the change in the way she presents herself comes from the fact that she realised that skating amazingly well and winning the Olys at 17 is not a piece of cake, and also from all the media pressure. It must be very very hard for her to listen to everyone talk about her 'unrealised' potential, and even more becquse, as she says herself, her expectations are the highest.
When I watch the old Sasha and then the 2005-2006 Sasha, I see two different skaters;1)better skating skills in general, even if she had the 'wow' factor since 2000, 2) when it comes to determination, dominance on the ice. She owned the ice in 2000-2002, she doesnt anymore. It's like she's scared of herself. She doesn't give it all, she doesnt skate her heart out every time, in 2004 worlds sp for example.
Conclusion of this very confusing post-Yes she has improved skating wise, but in the mean time she skates more 'carefully' in my eyes. Perhaps, for some, that's an improvement. I just wish she's give it 100% every time.
I agree with all who have said Sasha's skating skills have improved tremendously. I also thought she was show-y skater back then, but was impressed with her "tricks" and her aggressive apprach. I think as she matured, she started thinking and letting pressure get to her, so she lost some of that attack. But even though she still had her "trademarks", I think those have matured, too-like, she's holding her moves out longer, on deeper edges, for more effect. She was always a fabulous spinner, but traveled and I thought her entries/exits were abrupt, almost sloppy, so I think she's polished off and finishes her moves more now. While Sasha's not my favorite, gotta tape all her performances, skater, I do enjoy watching her skate. But I have to say, 1999-2000 I really thought she'd be the one to eventually challenge, overtake Michelle in the years leading up to 2002 Olympics, and I find her more exciting to watch back then.
Also-people continue to praise Sasha for picking herself up and finishing her Olympic LP. Yes, it must have been a huge let down at the moment, but really, Sasha doesn't have more melt-downs than most skaters. She's had a few awful cheesefests, but at the other events, she doesn't do what Carolina or Miki unfortunately have done more than one, and completely bomb, self-destruct.
Because I am such a Michelle fan, i went back and rewatched her Keri program "Hands"...now that is a beautiful program, too! Who else competed for Team USA?
Also-people continue to praise Sasha for picking herself up and finishing her Olympic LP. Yes, it must have been a huge let down at the moment, but really, Sasha doesn't have more melt-downs than most skaters. She's had a few awful cheesefests, but at the other events, she doesn't do what Carolina or Miki unfortunately have done more than one, and completely bomb, self-destruct.
Because I am such a Michelle fan, i went back and rewatched her Keri program "Hands"...now that is a beautiful program, too! Who else competed for Team USA?
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Yes, and which team won, if it was a team competition?MKFSfan said:
Joe
Joesitz said:
I'm pretty sure Team USA was Silver and Michelle won the Indivdual, but that's all I remember! I only saved Michelle's skate.
Here's an interesting article from 1999 about up and coming skaters, etc.
http://cbs.sportsline.com/u/ce/multi/0,1329,1448682_10946,00.html
For those who thought NNN really challanged Michelle enough to giver her dirty looks, well, this author feels otherwise!
In a small way, this could be applied to Sasha, BUT I think Sasha would have ended up being the better skater of the 2 had NNN been able to continue.
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- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
It was a two-way team event, USA against Russia. USA got clobbered, losing every head to head match-up except one.
Michelle Kwan got four 5.9s and a 6.0 in presentation and beat reigning world champion Maria Butyrskaya.
In senior men's, Yagudin and Plushenko beat Eldredge and Weiss.
In pairs, Berezhnaya and Sikharudlidze won against Ina and Zimmerman.
In dance it was Krylova and Ovsiannikov ahead of Lang and Tchenychev.
In "junior men," Klimkin topped Savoie.
And in "junior ladies," Victoria Volchkova outpointed Sasha Cohen.
Michelle Kwan got four 5.9s and a 6.0 in presentation and beat reigning world champion Maria Butyrskaya.
In senior men's, Yagudin and Plushenko beat Eldredge and Weiss.
In pairs, Berezhnaya and Sikharudlidze won against Ina and Zimmerman.
In dance it was Krylova and Ovsiannikov ahead of Lang and Tchenychev.
In "junior men," Klimkin topped Savoie.
And in "junior ladies," Victoria Volchkova outpointed Sasha Cohen.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Piel said:And once again Kwan saves USFA's... ice
Michelle came out very determined in both the spring and the fall cheesefests that year, having lost the world championship to Maria a few months before.I bet she had a mean look on her face when she took the ice!
BTW, now I want to see Victoria Volchkova's skate, if she beat the Sasha performance that we just saw!
I've been watching a lot of Sasha programs on youtube. One thing that struck me is that she is *not* as bad a competitor as everyone makes her out to be. Rather than magnifying her mistakes in her programs, as a whole Sasha is a considerably better competitor than Kristi Yamaguchi, Nancy Kerrigan, and a slew of others whom I have seen skate over the years who have mistakes in their programs. Jill Trenary won a world title yet Sasha still lacks that title. I think bad luck and expectations play a lot into Sasha's misfortunes.
I also think Sasha is one of the most emotional skaters I have ever seen. You can see everything on her face when she competes. Her vulnerability, disappointment, happiness and insecurity all registers on her face during her programs. She is so emotionally invested in everything that happens on the ice from her jumps and her wow moves. I really don't think that she is capable of just blocking everything out and just skating like a robot. She's not that kind of person.
I just read her book and the them throughout it is how Sasha can't really keep her mind from thinking ahead. When she discusses her competitions, she's always talking about how her mind wanders or that she thought ahead. She also gets nervous and has a hard time dealing with her nerves. I think that for all those mental weaknesses, she has done quite well and achieved terrific results. World medals and an Olympic medal are nothing to scoff at. She could be as much as a wreck as Rohene Ward and never make it out of Nationals.
In terms of her improvement; she was already perfection. She became a more solid skater under TT but she already had that beauty in her. She did not need a choreographer to teach her how to be a beautiful skater and express music.
Also the criticism of Sasha's music choices is unwarranted. She has skated to a number of popular classics. I'm quite surprised at how many different pieces of music she has skated to over the years and she did a wonderful job expressing them as well.
I also think Sasha is one of the most emotional skaters I have ever seen. You can see everything on her face when she competes. Her vulnerability, disappointment, happiness and insecurity all registers on her face during her programs. She is so emotionally invested in everything that happens on the ice from her jumps and her wow moves. I really don't think that she is capable of just blocking everything out and just skating like a robot. She's not that kind of person.
I just read her book and the them throughout it is how Sasha can't really keep her mind from thinking ahead. When she discusses her competitions, she's always talking about how her mind wanders or that she thought ahead. She also gets nervous and has a hard time dealing with her nerves. I think that for all those mental weaknesses, she has done quite well and achieved terrific results. World medals and an Olympic medal are nothing to scoff at. She could be as much as a wreck as Rohene Ward and never make it out of Nationals.
In terms of her improvement; she was already perfection. She became a more solid skater under TT but she already had that beauty in her. She did not need a choreographer to teach her how to be a beautiful skater and express music.
Also the criticism of Sasha's music choices is unwarranted. She has skated to a number of popular classics. I'm quite surprised at how many different pieces of music she has skated to over the years and she did a wonderful job expressing them as well.
Sasha, when she was younger, had a fire and confidence, that the older Sasha has lost. I don't pretend to know what caused it to occur, but now, every time she takes the ice for her long program, one of her biggest enemies is her own mindset. It seems that she is afraid of making mistakes, instead of skating with the fire she once had and if a mistake happened, so what. It really is a shame as we will never know what she might have accomplished as a confident poised competitor.
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