Sasha Since 1999?

[R.D.]

I disagree. In the first place, there's always games 6 and 7.

Technically, yes, but in the specific example I used I was talking about winning the GAME.

Plus, win or lose, you are still the same person. In the long run, it doesn't really mean much whether you made that free throw and won a blue ribbon or not.

I'm not sure I agree with that. Yes, you are the same person but never winning the big one MUST leave some kind of emotional wound if it was within your grasp. In fact one is practically forced by life to move on from that. JMO though.

 

[SeaniBu]

Plus, win or lose, you are still the same person. In the long run, it doesn't really mean much whether you made that free throw and won a blue ribbon or not.

I can't say as though I agree with this. Maybe it is just semantics, you may remain the same individual, but winning or loosing can change a person's outlook, attitude, endorsements, others views of them, confidence, etc... So in essence, it really does change the person a majority of the time. Do you think Lance and Sheryl would have had anything if he hadn't won? Speculation but still the same, he was changed.

 

[Mathman]

Well, you're probably right about that, Seanibu and Red Dog. I'm just in a pensive mood today, having been reading about the recent developments in Somalia. With the new shift in the balance of power (thanks in no small part to the military support given by the USA to the clique of warlords), it now looks like the non-Moslem (black) population will be exterminated utterly, unless a few can flee to Chad in time.

So I was kind of in a mind to wonder just how much of a biggie it really is to win or lose a sporting contest.

Anyway, I predict that next year Sasha will be like Michelle in 2003. She'll lay low, then just when everyone has forgotten about her, out she'll pop to win Nationals and Worlds.

 

[SeaniBu]

That is not that far off of a prediction in reality. Here I am saying that win or loose can change someone, and yes it could bring a change for the better.:agree:

 

[shine]

Funny, because even if she has improved her skating skills and "polished up" like others have said, I actually thought Sasha felt the music more when she was younger (very impressed with her performances from 2000 US Nationals), and interpreted her music on a much more deliberate, intuitive level. And her "tricks" were more integrated more naturally into the programs back then IMO. Now everything is about creating drama using mainly politically correct facial expression...the sense of freedom had been long lost IMO.

 

[Mathman]

Figure skating seems to be a young person's game, especially the "ladies." I don't know why we are surprised to discover that Sasha was at her peak at 16.

So was Tara, so was Sarah, so was Oksana. Maybe even Michelle

 

[MKFSfan]

Figure skating seems to be a young person's game, especially the "ladies." I don't know why we are surprised to discover that Sasha was at her peak at 16.

So was Tara, so was Sarah, so was Oksana. Maybe even Michelle

We'll never know about Tara and Oksana as they came, peaked at the right moment of an important season and left. I truly believe Tara could have continued to mature in her skating and you just never know what kind of skater she would have become. Oksana never really had a full LP. Sure she was beautiful and, IMO, the most musical skater ever, but her jumps were never solid and she had some nice things about her skating that could have been furthered.

As much as I loved the 1996 Michelle, I really think Michelle had a few "peaks". She was brilliant in 1996, close to perfect in 1998 and how can you deny the wonderful combination of technical and artistic ability we saw in 2000 and 2001? I've been watching a lot of her exhibitions from that time frame (well, more like 1998-2002!) and I'm always amazed by her variety and artistic ability to present different programs that move me. After that, I think she had wonderful moments of heart-felt, top rate performances (2002, '03, and '04 Nats. and 2003 Worlds), but she never quite upped her technical ability, just improved in some aspects (FW, spins, spirals) so IMO, she had peaked as far as her career was going to take her. But she did continue to improve after 1996 as far as becoming a more complete skater, both artistically and technically.

 

[mzheng]

I think thed coaching changes had some affect. She should have either never left Nicks or stayed with Tarosova.

Had she staied with TT, she probably would be the 2006 OGM, given the event developped.....

Without TT's help Shizuka probably would still skated within herself, and JF had no politics power back in 2004 to pull off a WC for her....Then of course Kwan was injured during the season, even she was not injured, I doubt TT would agree to choreograph for her, even more doubt Kwan would ask in first place, had TT still been with Sasha.

Fate and fate...... oh well, nothing is perfect in this world. You gain some you lose some.

Back to Sasha's skating. Although she might not develop extra signature moves, but her edge quality has been improved a lot through the year.....ppl at South cal who saw Sasha skated before her leaving had commented she skated without edge....but when she was back it was whole different. Me and my husband had been eye opening back in 1999 when we first saw her skated. Thought she would be the Next IT.....but after all these years, even my husband got used to it "nothing so special about her skating when I first saw her.....". He said you kind of expecting fall somewhere in the program, then you relieved, and she herself looked almost relieved, and now you can enjoy the rest of it.....It's just bad luck that she couldn't manage more of majore titles, spending her most strong skating years in a era where Kwan and Irina were still able to dominate.

Not sure how good Kimmie, Katy, etc. will improve next season. I sure hope Sasha come back next season, otherwise I might just skip the whole US lady fs events.

 

[R.D.]

It's funny out of ALL the skaters that have "potential" and that "don't live up to it", the discussion always shifts to You-Know-Who. Can't one expect falls in most skaters' programs, anyway? (except for maybe MK or IS) I guess I'm just confused here.

 

[Mathman]

Well, I'm confused, anyway. Who is the "you-know-who" that you think this Sasha thread has "shifted to?"

 

[R.D.]

What I'm referring to has nothing to do with this thread (or its title)- it's the trend that occurs when we talk about falling - discussion always shifts to Cohen, when almost every other skater I see out there falls and no one cares about them. What about when Suguri had the opportunity to grab a World Championship but slipped up? I don't hear any groans there.

 

[Dee4707]

What I'm referring to has nothing to do with this thread (or its title)- it's the trend that occurs when we talk about falling - discussion always shifts to Cohen, when almost every other skater I see out there falls and no one cares about them. What about when Suguri had the opportunity to grab a World Championship but slipped up? I don't hear any groans there.

Red Dog, that is exactly what I have been beefing about all along. I have said all along..........ALL SKATERS FALL!!! Just look at the Olympics, some people declared Carolina Kostner as heir apparent to the throne and she flopped but I didn't hear much about that. Would I like to see all perfect performance from Sasha, yes, but.........the fact remains that inspite of the falls, her performances are super..........just as the rest of the skaters who fall.

Dee

PS RD, I sent you a PM.

 

[R.D.]

Carolina is another great example.

Better yet, what about Miki Ando? I know the federation has all but "given up" on her, but I don't hear anything from the fans.

Or the latest example, Alissa Czisny...she always had problems with multiple falls in programs but seemed to "get over it" at SC last year. Now at Nationals when she couldn't step up under the spotlight, I didn't hear much if anything. I think there were a few disappointed fans out there but nothing near the outcry for Cohen.

Lots of others...Irina at the Olympics, etc. The only "outcry" that rivals what I see for Cohen now is Kwan's inability to step up in Olympic situations (there has been quite a big deal made out of that IIRC).

Now, I'm just a bit confused here, that's all. If we are to talk about skaters who come close but don't "close", I'd figure Cohen would be at the top of the list, but not the only one on this list.

 

[Kwanford Wife]

What I'm referring to has nothing to do with this thread (or its title)- it's the trend that occurs when we talk about falling - discussion always shifts to Cohen, when almost every other skater I see out there falls and no one cares about them. What about when Suguri had the opportunity to grab a World Championship but slipped up? I don't hear any groans there.

Its the nature of the beast... Sasha has been hyped since day one as the "next big thing since wonderbread" by her camp, the fans, the media, etc. Regardless of how beloved Michelle is, people who were skate watchers weren't prepared for one skater to win 9 us titles & 5 world titles. This sport does not support that type of longevity. So you have this little wisp of a girl with a huge talent & attitude to match and you're ready for the fight... a true rivarily here in the US. But time & time again, Sasha proved that the fans, judges and media do not determine championships in this sport. Staying up-right for 4 1/2 minutes does.

But the hype never stopped and unlike other skaters, she DID have the complete package, she just couldn't deliver. Her talent has never been in question, but her mental game.

The other hyped up skaters didn't have that package ot momentum so when they didn't deliver, you didn't care... especially since few of them stuck around more than three years.

As for Fumie, IMHO (which is always suspect to say the least...) has always been considered a beautiful & talented skater... but her reputation of being a clutch skater who peeks towards the end of the season, makes people pay attention to her, but not be surprised when she doesn't hit the top spot. Therefore, no angst. Sasha causes angst for everybody & that's the difference. Does that make sense?

 

[Mathman]

Red Dog, I think none of those skaters that you mention comes anywhere near Sasha, if you are talking about "close but no cigar."

Alissa Czisny has great sprials and spins, but except for two nice Grand Prix events last year, she has never been "close" to anything.

Carolina Kostner got third at Worlds once.

Miki Ando got fourth at Worlds once.

Irina and Michelle have both fallen short a time or two, but they have also won a lot of stuff.

Sasha does seem to be in a class by herself, with two world silvers, three U.S. silvers and an Olympic silver. She seems uniquely snakebitten. In any one of those events (except perhaps Moscow worlds) she seemed poised to take home the big prize, only to have the skate gods snatch it away with a bad fall at the worst possible moment.

 

[Kwanford Wife]

Lots of others...Irina at the Olympics, etc. The only "outcry" that rivals what I see for Cohen now is Kwan's inability to step up in Olympic situations (there has been quite a big deal made out of that IIRC).

Now, I'm just a bit confused here, that's all. If we are to talk about skaters who come close but don't "close", I'd figure Cohen would be at the top of the list, but not the only one on this list.

I think this is right on as to why Sasha gets so much flack... there is no reason on this earth that Michelle (and Irina for that matter...) doesn't have an Olympic Gold Medal. When it comes to the Olympics, Michelle can't keep her head together... she wants it too bad. Sasha wants to win too bad. Mental issues are always more fun to pick apart than a skater's fall.

 

[R.D.]

Sasha does seem to be in a class by herself, with two world silvers, three U.S. silvers and an Olympic silver. She seems uniquely snakebitten. In any one of those events (except perhaps Moscow worlds) she seemed poised to take home the big prize, only to have the skate gods snatch it away with a bad fall at the worst possible moment.

Yes, perhaps that's true. I can think of THREE major events where Cohen COULD have won but didn't because of a fall and/or stumble. But in TWO of those three events, someone else simply STOLE THE SHOW to the point where even if she DIDN'T fall, she probably wouldn't have won anyway. (but then, one never knows how the skaters after her would have performed- the "X-factor" again)

Sorry KW but I'm not sure I'm following you. Are you saying that Cohen gets picked apart because she supposedly has that "complete package"? I suppose I'm just not "into it" enough to see why it's so much of a big deal- I mean, I see Cohen falling (at the Olympics) as no more of a big deal than Irina falling...or Carolina and Miki "failing" to live up to the fan hype. But that's just me.

 

[Kwanford Wife]

Sorry KW but I'm not sure I'm following you. Are you saying that Cohen gets picked apart because she supposedly has that "complete package"? I suppose I'm just not "into it" enough to see why it's so much of a big deal- I mean, I see Cohen falling (at the Olympics) as no more of a big deal than Irina falling...or Carolina and Miki "failing" to live up to the fan hype. But that's just me.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying... but I need coffee as my brain is shutting down. Its the hype without the results that drives the picking...

 

[R.D.]

Well, now the hype has died down, but the "picking" hasn't. It's more like "can she do it this time" now, more than "she's the next big one." Now other skaters are getting that attention.

 

[MKFSfan]

Hmm...I supposed Sasha's partly picked on because she's a "complete package" and people have been expecting her to be THE one to win every time out since 2000. But I think she also gets picked on so much because she's always on the cusp of a win and just doesn't get it. If Caro, Miki or any other skater that's been hyped, was ever on the brink of winning a major competiton more than once or twice, then the same thing would apply. Since Sasha has been runner up now at 2 Worlds (twice leading into the LP) and 4 times at Nationals (leading again 2 times going into LP) and continued the same trend for Olympics and Worlds this year, yet fallen short in the LP, well, that's why there's so much nitpicking about Sasha failing to deliver. Again.