Sashas Edges

[mzheng]

Well, once in a while you can.

Jeffrey Buttle doing his inside spread eagle while debuting his new long program at Minto Summer Skate, beginning of August. :

http://www.pbase.com/image/20702041

Wow, I'm very impressed. Sure he is at great speed to maintain that edge.

 

[registered]

It's a lovely spiral photo, however, it is on a relatively shallow outside edge. Compare it to this photo:

http://www.heatherw.com/mk/pics/aditl/mk00w115807.jpg

Difference in edge quality is obvious.

That's a nice spiral, but a free leg's extention could be much better, than that. Compare to this one:

http://kgphotos.com/cgi-bin/RLink/R...a&SEARCHTERM1=Cohen&SEARCHTERM2=&SEARCHTERM3=

"She is an overall exquisite skater. She is just marvelous. Her positions, her style, her back, the stretch of the legs, the spins, the quality of the whole thing, its just magnificent. If only she could keep those little mistakes out of the program, she will be an almost unbeatable skater. Simply glorious, and magnificent positions, and elegance, and line." Dick Button @ Crest Whitestrips

"Watch the inside edge she turns into on this flying camel, that is so difficult to do, nothing she does is simple." (Tracy Wilson @Sears)

"Her spirals are unquestionably the best." -Peggy Flemming, 2002 Skate Canada SP

 

[mzheng]

So by Sasha's speed in COE, you mean the v in the equation?

Yes.

the curve line is r?

No, I mean the arch line.

I guess it makes sense because center force is proportional to v/r, so if r is smaller then v can be smaller.

Now about @ , you said is the angle formed by the blade and the ice, so the smaller the @, the deeper the edge?

So for a skater 1 who has deep edges, i.e. @1 is a small angle, and skater 2 who has shallow edge, i.e. @2 is a large angle?

The value of cos of a smaller angle is greater than the value of cos of a larger angle right?

Yes.

Notice the 2 edges -- which are sharpened once a while -- on both side of the blads? Where is the vertical supporting force come from, so I think the area of the edge also affected the balance.

 

[Norlite]

That is so sweet how you jump right in to defend Sasha!

Perhaps from now on you should be known as :

"Sir Registered--Most Loyal Fan."

 

[StillBlueLake]

That's a nice spiral, but a free leg's extention could be much better, than that. Compare to this one:

http://kgphotos.com/cgi-bin/RLink/R...a&SEARCHTERM1=Cohen&SEARCHTERM2=&SEARCHTERM3=

"She is an overall exquisite skater. She is just marvelous. Her positions, her style, her back, the stretch of the legs, the spins, the quality of the whole thing, its just magnificent. If only she could keep those little mistakes out of the program, she will be an almost unbeatable skater. Simply glorious, and magnificent positions, and elegance, and line." Dick Button @ Crest Whitestrips

"Watch the inside edge she turns into on this flying camel, that is so difficult to do, nothing she does is simple." (Tracy Wilson @Sears)

"Her spirals are unquestionably the best." -Peggy Flemming, 2002 Skate Canada SP

Sasha has the extension, Michelle has the edges. Just as Michelle could improve her extension, Sasha could improve her edges. They are two skaters who excel at different things.

 

[Yazmeen]

Actually, if you want to see the kick-butt spiral position of all time, look up pics of Nicole Bobek.

registered: I suppose you do know that extension such as Sasha's is not technically a requirement for a spiral. The requirement is to be on an edge with the free leg straight and at hip height or better. Oh, Norlite, don't you mean "Knight Defender of the beautiful Princess Sasha???"

I can tell everyone from my minimal experience that speed is necessary for a COE spiral. I have a "baby" Kwan spiral at the moment (actually, embryonic might be a better term!!!) and the more speed I have going into it, the better I edge, the better the transition, and the longer the second edge (outside) holds. From a physics point of view, it is an interesting move, whether you do the calcs or not!!!

 

[mzheng]

"She is an overall exquisite skater. She is just marvelous. Her positions, her style, her back, the stretch of the legs, the spins, the quality of the whole thing, its just magnificent. If only she could keep those little mistakes out of the program, she will be an almost unbeatable skater. Simply glorious, and magnificent positions, and elegance, and line." Dick Button @ Crest Whitestrips

"Watch the inside edge she turns into on this flying camel, that is so difficult to do, nothing she does is simple." (Tracy Wilson @Sears)

"Her spirals are unquestionably the best." -Peggy Flemming, 2002 Skate Canada SP

Then why she didn't win a medal at the world. I don't know who to trust, the judges or these comentators? Even when she skated a relative clean LP with 7 triples at qualify round at 2003 worlds, the judges still placed her behind MK and ES. With MK's 6 triple LP still come ahead of both Sasha and Elena. I think judges must evaluated the edge quality, speed, etc in Figure Skating than the leg position or amplitude.

They are all NA commentators. It is obviousely they are tring to build/hype up the next generation of Great US famel skater. You should listen to the commentators of EuroSport or commentators from Asia. They sure did not critisiz her as some of non-sasha fan dose, but nor they give her such high compliment. But they sure did give Kwan highly compliment during 2003 SP and LP. Kwan had been called 'Queen on the Ice' by both EuroSport (BBC) and CCTV comentators. But I never heard NA commentators called her that.

And change to inside edge camel spin first was brought back by Sarah in recent years. Just last season I saw it was performed by at least 3 top ladies, Sasha included. Sarah and Fummie sure did not fall on that like Sasha did. That means Sarah and Fummie, in general, have better edge control than Sasha.

That said, I didn't say Sasha's edge is bad. As compared to top ladies in the world, she is lacking edge control, thus she is lacking the basics. I think it make sense, though, in past a few years she was busy on 'inventing' her own moves, i.e, sasha skid -- or should I say brought back some old moves performed by previous generations skater -- or copy the movement from the current crops, ie. Sarah's change inside edge camel spin, Michelle's COE spiral. So she spend less time on trainning at the basics. Now there is hope that she gets more improved with TT this coming season and win a medal at world.

 

[registered]

Sasha has the extension, Michelle has the edges. Just as Michelle could improve her extension, Sasha could improve her edges. They are two skaters who excel at different things.

I can imagine, that at some point something has to give, as the free leg to higher, lean diminishes.

 

[PrincessLeppard]

If you heard announcers talking about Sasha's "deep, flowing edges" they
were probably talking about Sasha Abt.

Laura

 

[mzheng]

If you heard announcers talking about Sasha's "deep, flowing edges" they
were probably talking about Sasha Abt.

Laura

ITA. He has the best edge quality in current top Russain male skaters, Alexie and Plush included.

What he lacks are:
a consistant quad
endurence by the last min.

 

[hockeyfan228]

Even when she skated a relative clean LP with 7 triples at qualify round at 2003 worlds, the judges still placed her behind MK and ES.

The Ladies' qualification at Worlds 03 was the first time I had seen Cohen in person. She was so tiny and dull, I thought she was just an over-hyped "television skater."

I was very relieved to see that she was a very different skater in the short and long programs, with more speed, energy, and charisma. She didn't skate cleanly in either, but she was so much more interesting to watch.

 

[shine]

Not true, I've heard TV commentators to complement on Sasha's deep, flowing edges many times.

You just never cease to amaze me.

 

[Norlite]

You just never cease to amaze me.

I get where you're coming from shine,

But he's way too predictable to be amazing. :sheesh:

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

In defense of Sasha. She does have edges but they are not in the Dorothy Hamil class! It will take time. She reminds me of Tara going after the tricks first. OK, but gold medals don't necesarily win the hearts of figure skater fans.

I still think she has the right stuff to win the Olys once she relaxes and just skates beautifully. Hey, what a concept, skate beautifully.

Joe

 

[Duchess]

I get where you're coming from shine,

But he's way too predictable to be amazing. :sheesh:

As in more predictable than the sunrise?

Yes, the Internet's most vociferous Sasha fan is rather that way.

AC, you really must get more creative. You can fool some of the people some of the time.

 

[rtureck]

You just never cease to amaze me.

What amazes you again?

 

[rtureck]

I still think she has the right stuff to win the Olys once she relaxes and just skates beautifully. Hey, what a concept, skate beautifully.

Joe

I predict Sasha will be the favorite to win going into Olympics 2006.

 

[rtureck]

I mean the arch line.

What is the arch line? I reiterate, I am math and physics challenged.

Notice the 2 edges -- which are sharpened once a while -- on both side of the blads? Where is the vertical supporting force come from, so I think the area of the edge also affected the balance.

I am a little lost here. But let me try to muddle it through.

According to you VerticalSupport=m*G*sin@, which is applied to the blads by the ice surface.

So vertical support is proportional to sin@. The smaller @, the smaller is the value of sin@. So if a skater has deep edges, i.e. small @, the vertical support is also smaller. So it takes a lot more skill to maintain a deep edge?

Back to Sasha's extension. JMO Extension is from tip of pointed toe to the tip of the fingers. She has the pointed toes, but we have quite a discussion about her fingers, which are OK basic ballet, not the most extended. So she loses some points in the overall extension. She lifts her free leg high, that is amplitude, not extension

Irina has the DEEPEST EDGES

 

[IDLERACER]

Check Out Lulu's Edge

 

[BravesSkateFan]

That's a nice spiral, but a free leg's extention could be much better, than that. Compare to this one:

Actually Michelle's extension is comparable to Sasha's. Where Sasha is better is in her amplitude. Michelle's extension can't get so is Sasha), but Sasha's amplitude and flexibility are unrivaled.

Sorry, but mistaking amplitude and/or flexibility for extension is a real big pet peeve of mine.

On another note, I'm not a big fan of the 180 deg. split in sprials, I just don't think its very attractive... I think it works well in other moves though (charlotte ect). looking at the pics of lulu and michelle's spirals, I don't think Sasha's 180 degree split would look right if her edges were that deep. It would just be very strange looking to me. That said, I think should she improve her edges, she should ditch the 180 split otherwise ti would look strange. JMO