Scott Moir says its a piss off
- Thread starter skateflower
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It's worth reading the OD thread from the 2009-2010 GPF when D/W beat V/M by a hair. It's eerie how similar that thread is to this one:
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?29720-Grand-Prix-Final-OD
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?29720-Grand-Prix-Final-OD
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- Aug 23, 2003
The improvements have been small because there's very little for either team to improve, but in terms of performance and their tech, they have closed the gap with V&M.
D&W have better matching lines than in the past. V&M have the best matching lines in ice-dance. D&W were often just slightly off. Better than most teams but not as good as V&M. This year D&W have caught up to V&M in this regard. Their moves have better finish, more precise.
But it's in their performance that D&W have improved the most. They are capturing the character of the dance, not just the moves, and there are portions of the FD where you forget they're on skates. This has been the case with V&M for a number of years, but it's the first time I've felt this way about D&W.
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- Jun 27, 2003
this is somehow news? I'm well aware that the second mark is based on subjectivity. However, the idea that ice dance uses the presentation mark more than the other three disiplines doesn't fly.
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- Jan 23, 2004
It sure is eerie. It was fun reading the old posts.
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- Jun 3, 2008
1.Actually this is the response I was looking for. I m pretty sure in case of Daisuke it would happen this way, but there are numerous skaters like in Moir case who would be crucified for this. i understand everyone is soft for their favorites but thats why I really refrain from posting sometimes, double standars is something I dont really have the ability to face in debate, I mute.
2. I was paraphrasing this post below, people rush to announce Moir or whoever bad sportsman but in the fs history, skaters have attacked skaters, have caught drunk, have driven drunk over a person, and in other sports drug use is so common that I really bother when I see a figure skating fan announcing someone so easily a poor sport, would they like to hear that couch-potatos judge easily?
Canadian bad boys of figure skatingeven if their images have to be manufactured. They can't hold a candle to the real deals though, with no steroid or drug use, violence, temper tantrums, DUI, animal cruelty, arrests and incarcerations, etc. We will make do. Thank you for the effort.
They have also added far more intricacy to their transitions and connecting step over the last two seasons. Lots more face to face dancing or dancing in hold but without a loss of speed, a key crossover assessment of both GOE and PCS. (Probably the strongest legacy of the tango FD.) In the past they were criticized by some for their programs being too open, especially Rigby and Phantom. Their edges have also gotten cleaner and deeper with each season. Both of them have improved their posture as well.
Bellafur, I don't know what's sillier: that old meme about Meryl or Charlie or the implication within it that such running steps don't exist in the off-ice dance world. Plenty of skaters use hops and running steps as transitional moves withing elements and between them. People see what they want to see, particularly if they have such a biased point of view that they are only willing to criticize those whom they don't prefer, while fawning over others. No points you have made in this thread have been based in any substantive facts (as Mrs. P points out). They are merely unsubstantiated declarations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6mge7uZbLo
Hmm what's that I spy? Scott doing running steps at 0:22?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bYdMJYk0gU
Plenty of running steps in this dance (even if you argue that they are an expression of the character of the folk dance).
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- Mar 14, 2006
I think it's in poor taste to bring Daisuke into this. First, he has nothing to do with Scott's (or Patrick's) words. Second, I don't recall his ever making this kind of comment on judging. All he ever says is, "I made mistakes, I must work harder and do better." And he speaks respectfully of his peers. Please leave him out of it!
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- Oct 22, 2005
DING! Those are the exact areas that D/W have improved, in my opinion (and if you look at older protocols versus this season's, the judges agree). There were times before where they were fast and looked rushed but now they are fast and it just captures the character of the program. I thought their Bollywood program was the last one that was close in that regard in terms of capturing the character but it missed some connection; this year's programs REALLY show what that difficult FD from last season was about - capturing the musical character and developing a better connection as a team.
In general, I don't think Scott has really SEEN what his training mates have done to improve themselves in the last several years and his comments are short sighted (and can be perceived as down right rude toward D/W in a backhanded manner) if he thinks they just stayed stagnant while he and Tessa healed and got back into the swing of things. I get that he wants to win and that's great, I just think he has an overblown sense of how they NOW compare to D/W versus how they DID compare to D/W 2 or 3 seasons ago and is shortsighted with regard to what their biggest rivals are capable of doing from both sides (Tech and Program Components) now.
Interesting points. But if that is the case, how is it that Scott has not seen or noticed these improvements? You would think that they would have been clued in since they practice at the same rink. It's not that like V/M were never at the rink while Tessa was injured. Or you think that their coaches would have said something.
I would expect less awareness if the teams were on the other side of the ocean (i.e P/B or C/L) but not to have such awareness of their own teammates seems quite odd to me.
I know the best practice is not to watch behind your shoulder and to focus on your own performance, but I think you would want to have some idea of what your competitors are doing.
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Both teams have said in interviews that they don't always train on ice at the same time. (Marina sits down each week and puts together a very complicated schedule for all their teams and coaches including practice times and travel. She ensures they get equal attention) In addition, Scott and Tessa did a lot of training away from Canton at times during her off-ice and on-ice recovery from surgery. Also, as far as I can tell, their off-ice training (ballroom and ballet training, weight training, running, etc.) is not done together either. So they may be in the same vicinity of each other, but they are really not side by side as much as the happy media narrative would often have us believe.
Thanks for the insight, jcoates. But even taking all that into consideration, I'd still think there would be some awareness. It seems odd, as mskater93 pointed out, that Scott would think it would be business as usual once Tessa fully recovered from her injury.
Yes and no. He should be aware of the massive strides D/W have made, but he may be choosing to either ignore them as being significant enough or he may honestly disagree with the majority of judges and fans as to the degree of improvement. I've made this point in other threads, but it is often very difficult for the formerly dominant competitor in any sport to acknowledge that their chief rival has caught up to them, particularly when that is the result of the rival improving in their own signature areas. The old advantages disappear and that is very hard to come to grips with. Sometimes denial sets in.
To make yet another tennis analogy, Chris Evert was utterly dominant from 1974-1978 in women's tennis. She won nearly half of the majors she collected during her entire 18 year career during that stretch. She also did this largely by being the most mentally tough and disciplined player on the circuit. She was not the most athletic, fittest, strongest, fastest or hit the ball the hardest but she was good enough at all those categories that combined with her mental strength she was virtually unbeatable racking up ridiculous winning percentages. Still everyone knew that Martina Navratilova (who was far behind in head to head at that point) was her most likely serious challenger because of her physical strength and athleticism. If Martina every shored up her mental consistency, improved her backhand and maximized her natural physical talent, everyone knew she could rise to the top. In fact she did that and started to beat Chris on faster surfaces (grass, carpet and hard courts) with increasing regularity. However, once she started to beat her on clay and at the US Open (Chris's two home turfs) Chris was forced to acknowledge the truth: she'd been passed. It was painful to admit that her best was no longer good enough. She'd been stubborn in her resistance to admitting that fact, even continuing to play with wood instead of graphite for a couple of years longer than Navratilova thus ceding a significant equipment advantage. Of course none of this should have been a surprise given that the often practiced together at tournaments, even before finals where they were due to play each other. Now she had to live with the fact that she was still light years better than everyone else except one woman who was in the midst of a protracted winning streak against her. Still she did not give in. She took time off to train more often and played less frequently. She got tons fitter, faster, stronger, and added more of Martina's aggression, all at the age of 30. She even managed to return to #1 for a time in the middle of 1985. From that point on, their head to head was essentially even for the last four years both were on tour together.
My point is, the best athletes tend to believe their best is the best and are reluctant to change that point of view. That only usually happens in the face of stinging defeat. The best of them use that as emotional fuel to work harder and improve going forward. I expect that of V/M. I also expect D/W to not rest of their laurels, in part because as the former underdogs, they understand how far they have come and what it took to get there. They know they can be passed again if they become complacent.
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- Jan 7, 2011
Scott would still have way more opportunities to see D/W skate up close than any fan. In fact, he was sitting right in the K&C staring very intently at D/W as they did their FD in the GPF.
I believe what Scott is complaining about is that on SOME of the PCS, D/W exceeded or tied V/M. In this particular FD, V/M actually got a higher mark in skating skills than D/W. In transition and performance, however, D/W exceeded V/M on both scores. In choreography and interpretation/timing, D/W tied V/M. I am guessing here, but perhaps Scott looked at those differences and disagreed. To Scott, and perhaps to many others as well, "Funny Face" is a much more theatrical and performance orientated piece, with way more character moments. And he's aghast that such obvious pandering is tied or marked below that of D/W far less theatrical program. "What do you mean our performance and interpretation isn't as good as Davis and White? We practically recreated the movie in front of you mooks!" *What I imagine Scott is saying in his head. What Scott is missing is that there are many other ways to display artistry, to realize music as movement, to create character out of dance. It may behoove him to reread the program component scoring guidelines for ice dancing as well. In each of those scores, there are far more criteria involved than obvious miming.
I believe what Scott is complaining about is that on SOME of the PCS, D/W exceeded or tied V/M. In this particular FD, V/M actually got a higher mark in skating skills than D/W. In transition and performance, however, D/W exceeded V/M on both scores. In choreography and interpretation/timing, D/W tied V/M. I am guessing here, but perhaps Scott looked at those differences and disagreed. To Scott, and perhaps to many others as well, "Funny Face" is a much more theatrical and performance orientated piece, with way more character moments. And he's aghast that such obvious pandering is tied or marked below that of D/W far less theatrical program. "What do you mean our performance and interpretation isn't as good as Davis and White? We practically recreated the movie in front of you mooks!" *What I imagine Scott is saying in his head. What Scott is missing is that there are many other ways to display artistry, to realize music as movement, to create character out of dance. It may behoove him to reread the program component scoring guidelines for ice dancing as well. In each of those scores, there are far more criteria involved than obvious miming.
Your capacity for thoughtfulness, and an informed sensibility, continues to shock and awe
There are obviously SO MANY dimensions to every team's training. Decisions on music, costuming and presentation. Off-ice training in all its many dimensions including fitness and dance and choreography. All three of the top Canton teams seem to have been able to generate unique profiles and differentiated success because everything does not simply depend on the equivalent of "group lessons" but a world class training center environment when they ARE on the ice.
Simple happy best buddies all the time? Absurd to assume so, but I sense that at the core of each of the skaters in the Canton group, including the Shibutanis, is a really decent, genuine and caring person that any of us would be thrilled to meet, hire, partner or work with.
I feel certain that all of them have an excellent sense of how they are doing on literally a daily basis. Measuring up against each other or in other words "helping push each other" seems a key ingredient of the rapid rise all three teams have experienced competitively.
I think when they DO come together, the competitive juices flowing as I am certain they must (have seen this for generations at our training center) it raises the level of everybody's game and makes for better competitors.
The fact that there can ALSO be a charming moment such as the one I watched during the practice session in Quebec when the 3 Canton teams shared ice and they all did the tap section of the Shibutani's Chatanooga Choo Choo to the delight of everyone there, speaks to the chemistry that must exist betwen all of them. Probably having the youngsters (Shibutanis) there actually helps keep them (Virtue, Moir, Davis, White) on their toes. Charlie White has said as much in interviews. "We can't just mail it in" It also must help diffuse the focus on just being about "us vs. them" as the idea of having a concentrated melting pot of excellence can help keep everyone ambitious and humble at the same time.
