Shibsib spat

[Karoltyna]

I didn’t watch the entire video, but to be perfectly honest, I’m judging the person who recorded and posted the video a hell of a lot more than I’m judging Shibutani. I don’t believe for a second that it was posted out of any genuine concern.

The brother is the more aggressive one, but sister definitely got some verbal lashes in too. They both seem extremely immature to me.

The fights I had with my own brother growing up (and my mother especially) will absolutely put this to shame. I’m sure the outside world would have many cents to put in if these fights were recorded and posted for everyone to see.

Here we go again. Without larger context we don't know if Maia is a victim here, but general remark is that the victim doesn't have to be "perfect" to be the victim. When attacked, they are allowed to respond, even harshly, even mimicking the assaulter. They can have many personal flaws, it doesn't explain or justify them being attacked. Their behaviour can be less than perfect, but they are still victims.

Can you really tell that your reception of this video would be different if Maia just stood there with her head down, uttering only weak "please stop" or something like this or maybe cried quietly? Would she be more victim-like to you?

 

[Mathematician]

I don't think I've ever used that sort of language against a family member. I can't remember ever using that sort of language against a woman in general. Just a preface to make it clear im not deflecting by extension.

But this seems really standard to me. I get skating might expect some more chivalry but he isn't really being aggressive or threatening her at all, hes just chimping out. This happens all the time in sports. I've seen plenty of coaches and team mates that make this guy look like a teddy bear. I can't really imagine not getting cussed out in a sports team at some point. If you're underperforming its pretty much expected.

Although its also true that there are plenty of athletes with anger issues who become infamous for incessantly chimping out over trivialities. He typically gets kicked off the team or in this case its ultimately her choice if she is going to keep putting up with it or not. Plenty of skaters dumped their partners if they can't put up with their antics. The outrage over this is unwarranted to me but also unsurprising. The skating fandom is of a certain demographic. It definitely has a different effect in skating compared to something like football or wrestling.

Also there is zero context here. I didn't watch the whole video admittedly, if he was in her face putting his hands on her or something along those lines its different.

 

[cocteautwin]

And that's the only sign of live we get from the Shibs.. yikes.

 

[lariko]

This is sign of our times when standard of courtesy had fallen so low that country leaders, officials and artistic/athletic elites freely cuss on even when they are not on candid camera but during straight up official broadcasts. It is now an accepted standard in the society. I see plenty of stories written by amature younger writers who think it's perfectly normal for siblings and friends to refer to one another in these terms. It's truly terrible. The race to be informal and closer to the 'average person' resulted in an erosion of respect and civility. Personally, anyone who thinks a coach 'must' step in... These are 30 yo family members slinging insults in a family fight. Who wants to interfere into something like that?

 

[Mathematician]

This is sign of our times when standard of courtesy had fallen so low that country leaders, officials and artistic/athletic elites freely cuss on even when they are not on candid camera but during straight up official broadcasts. It is now an accepted standard in the society. I see plenty of stories written by amature younger writers who think it's perfectly normal for siblings and friends to refer to one another in these terms. It's truly terrible. The race to be informal and closer to the 'average person' resulted in an erosion of respect and civility. Personally, anyone who thinks a coach 'must' step in... These are 30 yo family members slinging insults in a family fight. Who wants to interfere into something like that?

Fundamentally these sorts of conflicts always were and always will be. You're right that the mask is slipping in our post-modern society but thats a pretty superficial symptom of things. People used to care about certain optics and the standard has changed, because there is no objective foundation. Still, human nature was always like this. People always had trouble in the house, especially in the mid 1900s, IMO. That was like the peak of totally dysfunctional households giving maximum energy to some sort of idealistic optics. Thats all that changed is optics. Its not very meaningful.

 

[Isk]

Looks like he is trying to explain something and isn't getting through, something about the steps done differently on speed or without it, it's not really clear. The other person who is with them doesn't seem to understand it either. They did the step sequence at the end of the video, looked OK, covered the whole rink. Do they have a coach? Why are they doing their own choreography?
Well, at least we saw a bit of the Shibutanis' siblings, judging by the music the step sequence is from the rhythm dance.

 

[lariko]

Fundamentally these sorts of conflicts always were and always will be. You're right that the mask is slipping in our post-modern society but thats a pretty superficial symptom of things. People used to care about certain optics and the standard has changed, because there is no objective foundation. Still, human nature was always like this. People always had trouble in the house, especially in the mid 1900s, IMO. That was like the peak of totally dysfunctional households giving maximum energy to some sort of idealistic optics. Thats all that changed is optics. Its not very meaningful.

Vulgarity permeating everything leads to progressive deterioration, because people confuse rudeness and low-brow insults with sincerity. If yelling at one another in the worst possible language is the only way conflict resolution is modeled, and is seen as the true human nature's expression, there is nothing to aspire to.

 

[Mathematician]

Vulgarity permeating everything leads to progressive deterioration, because people confuse rudeness and low-brow insults with sincerity. If yelling at one another in the worst possible language is the only way conflict resolution is modeled, and is seen as the true human nature's expression, there is nothing to aspire to.

I just mean if you take the historical narrative at face value, "conflict resolution" was generally modeled a lot worse, meaning physically. There was though a transcendental goal in the societal ethos to feign some sort of virtue optically but that is gone now. I don't know about sincerity, I think its more like people are comfortable delegating themselves to beast consciousness and don't even adhere to a theoretical framework regarding humans as distinct in any way. People see the disposition you suggest as some sort of pretentious, outdated, and performative repression, I think. A sort of archaic unsophisticated piety that we've surpassed.

 

[YuBluByMe]

Here we go again. Without larger context we don't know if Maia is a victim here,

Exactly. Which is why she won’t be treated like one by me. (This means the rest of your post about victim response is irrelevant as I’m not talking about a victim.) I’m talking about what I saw and I didn’t see anything alarming in that clip.

There’s already enough information, though: they’re siblings that are attempting to return to the Olympics. Until I see otherwise, that’s enough for me to disregard. Your mileage may vary, of course, but my thoughts remain the same.

 

[Anna K.]

It was originally posted by Dave Lease to his Patreon and leaked out from there to Twitter/X from what I gathered. It was a recording he made from LiveBarn.

Is Dave Lease contributing to the public image of figure skating yet again?
Why doesn't it surprise me...

Have ShibSibs responded yet? The social impact is not about what you do, it's all about how you handle it afterwards.
If ShibSibs will post a joint response with hugs and smiles and a message like, we apologize for hurting your ears but we are siblings, we understand each other, and we know that we do not mean it really when we shout at each other - this is one story.
If ShibSibs will post separate responses of the kind: it wasn't me, it was all because of Alex/Maya - then this is an entirely different case. A sad case, truly.

 

[Isk]

Fundamentally these sorts of conflicts always were and always will be. You're right that the mask is slipping in our post-modern society but thats a pretty superficial symptom of things. People used to care about certain optics and the standard has changed, because there is no objective foundation. Still, human nature was always like this. People always had trouble in the house, especially in the mid 1900s, IMO. That was like the peak of totally dysfunctional households giving maximum energy to some sort of idealistic optics. Thats all that changed is optics. Its not very meaningful.

I am not sure I understand what you are trying to say about optics. Mid 1900s was WW2, it's a bit strange to talk about dysfunctional households when the world is in havoc.

Is Dave Lease contributing to the public image of figure skating yet again?
Why doesn't it surprise me...

Have ShibSibs responded yet? The social impact is not about what you do, it's all about how you handle it afterwards.
If ShibSibs will post a joint response with hugs and smiles and a message like, we apologize for hurting your ears but we are siblings, we understand each other, and we know that we do not mean it really when we shout at each other - this is one story.
If ShibSibs will post separate responses of the kind: it wasn't me, it was all because of Alex/Maya - then this is an entirely different case. A sad case, truly.

I guess they might have to. After a traumatizing experience the public usually needs a debriefing, which is why I think one needs to be cautious posting them and try to let people figure out their issues and do debriefings privately. Hugs and smiles is pretending the thing didn't happen, whereas it would be nice to know that the problem they were trying to solve, is solved. They clearly had a technical problem which also led to a communication problem, maybe it's not the only one. When somebody channels frustration towards a nearby human, they do mean it, and it does need a resolution. They could have figured it out on their own, now they have explaining to do. They could join forces and thank Lease or just ignore it.

 

[Mathematician]

I admit, I am not sure I understand what you are trying to say about optics. Mid 1900s was WW2, it's a bit strange to talk about dysfunctional households when many household members were displaced, fighting, starving, in concentration camps, missing or dead.

What are you talking about? The 50s are notorious for feigned optics despite domestic unrest. It was an example of why optics are superficial. My other post is more direct, in that historically physical conflict was standard. Justice and power were totally patriarchally asymmetrical. Yet at the same time cursing was a shameful public savagery. Today things are as peaceful and fair as ever, despite the "impious" public optics. This is what the historical narrative says.

 

[jgg220]

Of course it's problematic for Dave "Rent to Own" Lease to record/leak this video, and his comment at the beginning is quite ignorant, but to me that is a separate discussion.

Alex's behavior in this video is indefensible and the comments trying to downplay and justify it only illustrate how abuse and its victims/survivors are treated in this sport by both competitors and fans. I only hope that Maia can find a way to escape and heal and that we can move toward a place of true advocacy in this community before 2099 (I'm not holding my breath)..

 

[TontoK]

Of course it's problematic for Dave "Rent to Own" Lease to record/leak this video, and his comment at the beginning is quite ignorant, but to me that is a separate discussion.

Alex's behavior in this video is indefensible and the comments trying to downplay and justify it only illustrate how abuse and its victims/survivors are treated in this sport by both competitors and fans. I only hope that Maia can find a way to escape and heal and that we can move toward a place of true advocacy in this community before 2099 (I'm not holding my breath)..

It's irrelevant how this came to public light. Would Alex be more or less of a POS if the Pope had leaked it?

The rest of your post is spot on. We rightfully pontificate on this board about abuse in the sport and the need to stamp it out. All the time... we worry about this stuff in abstract. But now, it isn't abstract, is it? It's right in front of us - and the excuses are piling up because it's from the dude in a team that most people like.

 

[jgg220]

It's irrelevant how this came to public light. Would Alex be more or less of a POS if the Pope had leaked it?

I didn't say the circumstances behind the leaked video have any sort of mitigating factor on Alex's behavior, so whether or not it's "relevant how this came to public light" (which I'm fine to agree that it's not), you're replying to me as if I made an argument that I didn't, and that I don't agree with, anyway.

Let's just agree to agree.

 

[throw_triple_flip]

It's irrelevant how this came to public light. Would Alex be more or less of a POS if the Pope had leaked it?

I think Lease's intentions are very relevant. He's unlikely to have posted that out of concern for her wellbeing and having that video all over the internet is likely to cause distress to Maia Shibutani. How is this helping her or helping to deal with abuse in the sport?

I think posting that video without her consent is appalling behaviour in its own right.

 

[Isk]

It's irrelevant how this came to public light. Would Alex be more or less of a POS if the Pope had leaked it?

The rest of your post is spot on. We rightfully pontificate on this board about abuse in the sport and the need to stamp it out. All the time... we worry about this stuff in abstract. But now, it isn't abstract, is it? It's right in front of us - and the excuses are piling up because it's from the dude in a team that most people like.

Look at it from Maia's point of view. Would she want all this attentions, would she want some strangers to backlash at her brother? Maybe not. As someone who's been there and seen other people who have been there, here is what I'll say: if you think Alex is an ass, go punch him in the face, or do a man-to-man talk, it'll be more helpful. But do it privately. For someone who is already having issues it's not very helpful to have to protect one's life from well-meaning strangers, who sometimes don't understand that they are hurting more than helping, and sometimes from not so well-meaning strangers, because I can't explain by well-meaning-ness posting one's private life without permission, and without trying to talk to the people first, after which, if he were well-meaning, he either wouldn't do it or would do it with a context, depending on the outcome.

 

[FSFan1999]

Looks like he is trying to explain something and isn't getting through, something about the steps done differently on speed or without it, it's not really clear. The other person who is with them doesn't seem to understand it either. They did the step sequence at the end of the video, looked OK, covered the whole rink. Do they have a coach? Why are they doing their own choreography?
Well, at least we saw a bit of the Shibutanis' siblings, judging by the music the step sequence is from the rhythm dance.

The steps were just "ok", which for them is a problem. There are 6 or 7 US teams doing it better than them right now (distance, tracking, unison), and after some strong debuts earlier in the season I think they are feeling the pressure to deliver. But watching, maybe Maia isn't following him in the rocker, but he is definitely not following her in the first part of the step sequence. He's getting angry over her rocker, when the rest of his midline is not so great...

 

[TontoK]

I think Lease's intentions are very relevant. He's unlikely to have posted that out of concern for her wellbeing and having that all over the internet is likely to cause distress to Maia Shibutani. How is this helping her or helping to deal with abuse in the sport?

So everything is fine, so long as nobody knows about it?

Flipping your final question back to you: How does keeping this a secret help Maia or help deal with abuse in the sport?

You can like Dave Lease or hate him, but he isn't the one abusing Maia Shibutani. That would be her brother Alex.

 

[Karoltyna]

Look at it from Maia's point of view. Would she want all this attentions, would she want some strangers to stamp out her brother? As a person who's been there and has seen other people who have been there, here is what I'll say to you: if you think Alex is an ass, go punch him in the face, it'll be more helpful. For someone who is having issues it's not helpful to have to protect one's life from well-meaning strangers, who usually don't understand that they are hurting more than helping, and sometimes from not so well-meaning strangers, because I can't explain by well-meaning-ness posting one's private life without permission and without trying to talk to the people first, after which, if he were well-meaning, he most likely wouldn't do it.

This is valid point. I really wanted someone, anyone actually, could be the person I detested most at that time, to help me when I was in abusive relationship. By help I mean reach out to me, not post recordings of my partner yelling at me...