Shibsib spat

[skatemd1]

I can't imagine speaking to my sweet sister the way POS Alex spoke to Maia. And I think perhaps I'm emotionally connecting in this as though he spoke to MY sister that way. And my blood boils. I'm far too old to beat up the bully like I did in high school, and I don't even know these people (or particularly care about them on a personal level), but I'm furious about it.

Ultimately, it's up to Maia to determine what she's willing to tolerate from POS Alex in pursuit of her dream - if we can even be certain it IS her dream, and she hasn't been bullied into it. But my feelings are my own, and they're not changing. I view him, and I will always view him, as a pitiful excuse for a man who deserves derision in every aspect of his life. He'll always get it from me. I detest him now. I can never, ever root for him in any endeavor, and sadly that means I can't root for her either. I hope they abandon this come-back attempt, so I don't have to hear about him this season.

After reading this thread and watching the video, I also had a very strong reaction, having grown up in a family where abuse from a narcissistic male authority figure was something I lived with long enough to recognize instantly when I see it. And none of us should be minimizing or excusing his behavior (including USFSA), or trying to shift blame to whoever posted the video (I truly don't care). I agree with TontoK's points above, and I too am no longer a fan of this team or their ill-fated "comeback." The Shibutanis have lost me for good. I do hope, instead, they will reach out to a good therapist and get some help. After reading the comments above, I would add:

1. Emotional abuse like this is generally not a one-off occurrence, it is an ongoing pattern. Both Maia's response and the total non-reaction of the woman watching indicates to me that Alex probably says things like this all the time, that people around him are used to it, and are excusing and/or enabling his abusive behavior;
2. What abusers say in front of others tends to be mild compared to what happens in private. I hate to think about what he might say to her when no one is around, which is why I hope both he and Maia seek professional help.
3. The exchange shows a basic lack of respect for Maia that is not normal, in this or any other team sport. It screams of "narcissism" and should not be normalized. Having spent many hours at the rink and off-ice with dozens of ice dance and pairs teams over the years, this is not a normal dynamic for any team I have seen or worked with.
4. There is no excuse for this kind of behavior. It is abusive and should be disqualifying. Period.

 

[Jeanie19]

After reading this thread and watching the video, I also had a very strong reaction, having grown up in a family where abuse from a narcissistic male authority figure was something I lived with long enough to recognize instantly when I see it. And none of us should be minimizing or excusing his behavior (including USFSA), or trying to shift blame to whoever posted the video (I truly don't care). I agree with TontoK's points above, and I too am no longer a fan of this team or their ill-fated "comeback." The Shibutanis have lost me for good. I do hope, instead, they will reach out to a good therapist and get some help. After reading the comments above, I would add:

1. Emotional abuse like this is generally not a one-off occurrence, it is an ongoing pattern. Both Maia's response and the total non-reaction of the woman watching indicates to me that Alex probably says things like this all the time, that people around him are used to it, and are excusing and/or enabling his abusive behavior;
2. What abusers say in front of others tends to be mild compared to what happens in private. I hate to think about what he might say to her when no one is around, which is why I hope both he and Maia seek professional help.
3. The exchange shows a basic lack of respect for Maia that is not normal, in this or any other team sport. It screams of "narcissism" and should not be normalized. Having spent many hours at the rink and off-ice with dozens of ice dance and pairs teams over the years, this is not a normal dynamic for any team I have seen or worked with.
4. There is no excuse for this kind of behavior. It is abusive and should be disqualifying. Period.

Your post is perfect. I agree with everything you have written.

 

[skatemd1]

One thing I forgot to add, I find the title of this thread problematic: "Shibsib spat" makes it sound like the two of them were arguing over who gets to ride shotgun on a family car trip. This is a far more serious and one-sided incident, and I worry the term "spat" minimizes what we saw on this video. We should call it what it is: "Emotional Abuse."

 

[Gehranagan]

Not a good look, for sure!

Can you imagine altercations that must happen during training with all pair and ice dance teams?

Very few teams would ever berate a partner like that. Suggesting this is common behavior is minimizing how abusive and inappropriate this specific incident is. And if he is that abusive in a public place imagine how bad he is in a private situation. It is completely unacceptable and US figure skating should be intervening.

 

[Isk]

I am sorry but terms like

...Stop that....
...you need to come to grips that perceptions about him are forever changed...
...You all can continue on with your delusions...

is not the way to talk to a group of educated adults. Nobody here has to take your point of view.

Some appear not as upset about Alex's behavior as you are that his behavior became public and you have to face it head on. For those who are still clinging to the cute-and-loveable image that has been carefully crafted around this brother/sister team, And Dave Lease is not responsible for that. Alex Shibutani is responsible for that.

Perhaps, you have to come to grips. Others may have had no illusions about this team or any other team to begin with. Some people here have shared their own life experiences. Indifference is the word that would most accurately describe my attitude towards this team throughout the years, and it has not changed. But I've seen enough young women from child protection who never raised their own kids, in fact 90% of them are childless, and ruined enough families based on one spat. So, yes, what Dave did is relevant.

 

[TontoK]

I am sorry but terms like

is not the way to talk to a group of educated adults. Nobody here has to take your point of view.

Perhaps, you have to come to grips. Others may not have had illusions about this team or any other team to begin with. Some people here have shared their life experiences, and they are not in a hurry to download software at Alex. Indifference would be the word that would describe my attitude towards this team throughout the years, and it has not changed. But I've seen enough young ladies from child protection who never raised a single kid of their own, in fact 90% of them are childless, and ruined enough families based on one spat. So, yes, what Dave did is relevant.

Well, I haven't used the term "enabler."

Yet.

 

[skatemd1]

I found a pretty thoughtful discussion on this and the broader issue of abuse in figure skating here: Link to Dutch Ice Dance Diaries. She considers this a serious incident and asks what should be the response from USFSA and/or Safe-sport: Suspension/probation/ban/mandatory counselling? A good question. I know they step in on cases of drug or alcohol abuse, or sexual abuse/harassment of course, but what about emotional abuse? Anyone know if there are standards of conduct, or if they do anything to enforce them? I have not seen anything yet.

 

[Mathman]

I found a pretty thoughtful discussion on this and the broader issue of abuse in figure skating here: Link to Dutch Ice Dance Diaries. She considers this a serious incident and asks what should be the response from USFSA and/or Safe-sport: Suspension/probation/ban/mandatory counselling? A good question. I know they step in on cases of drug or alcohol abuse, or sexual abuse/harassment of course, but what about emotional abuse? Anyone know if there are standards of conduct, or if they do anything to enforce them? I have not seen anything yet.

I think that official channels would be hard-pressed to take any formal action without the co-operation of the victim -- Maia in this case. If Maia's response to an investigation was, "Oh it was nothing, we always yell at each other like that." I think that it would be difficult for entities like Safe Sport and the USFSA to move forward.

If the victim were a child it might be different.

 

[Magill]

There is a precedence in tennis where WTA suspended a coach who was found emotionally abusive to his athlete on the account of many witnesses but not the victim who never officially complained. Officially she saw nothing wrong with his behaviour, she claimed she needed "harsh treatment" to get the results. The guy was suspended for a year, banned from WTA events, practice courts etc. The athlete in question, and she belongs to the absolute top of the tops, tried it out with different coaches but after several months the rumour had it she was informally consulting him anyway. His suspension ended after 12 months, and now they are back together.
I don't know what is the morale of this very sad story. But it's a real and very recent story.
I guess it is very hard to achieve anything without a cooperation from the victim.

 

[Isk]

I found a pretty thoughtful discussion on this and the broader issue of abuse in figure skating here: Link to Dutch Ice Dance Diaries. She considers this a serious incident and asks what should be the response from USFSA and/or Safe-sport: Suspension/probation/ban/mandatory counselling? A good question. I know they step in on cases of drug or alcohol abuse, or sexual abuse/harassment of course, but what about emotional abuse? Anyone know if there are standards of conduct, or if they do anything to enforce them? I have not seen anything yet.

I'd say there are no further revelations in the Dutch Diary. She is just talking. She did say that making footage or details of abuse public is often mentally damaging to the victim. If they are bound by sponsorship contracts, Maia can't leave and shares the financial consequences as well. The author of this video also says one shouldn't skate if they are emotionally immature, not a very useful comment considering that people start at the age when emotional maturity is physiologically impossible. Coaches should intervene, etc. There is a discussion in the comments about parents being concerned that they pay for ice time where their minor kids are filmed without consent and then other people (presumably including the author of the video who also took the opportunity to advertise her charity) can monetize on publishing the footage.

 

[Isk]

Here is something else to consider.
The Dutch lady appeals to SafeSport guidelines a lot without really talking what they are, but in this article SafeSport is criticized for not addressing the problem of athletes' well being: https://www.espn.com/olympics/figur...6135539/safesport-says-re-open-coughlin-probe. They make it very clear that their job is to investigate and punish, I also remember them commenting about not having enough staff even for this, so people got suspended for months waiting for an investigation sometimes based on a single report. If a person under investigation committed suicide, they close the case, for them it's not a problem that the amends to the victims have not been made, people on both sides didn't get a closure and nothing has been learned from the incident to improve things. The way they do it in aviation industry for example is they investigate both major accidents and minor incidents and make recommendations to airlines, airports and manufacturers on safety improvements, reports are published. SafeSport does not do it, they work behind closed doors. OTOH, Skate Canada recently removed Kerry Leitch from the Canadian Hall of Fame, here is an article: https://www.tsn.ca/figure-skating/s...ze-coach-s-ouster-from-hall-of-fame-1.1794012. In the 1990s he slapped across the face a male skater who abused his young female partner, including throwing her on the ice and slamming her against the boards, so Kerry stepped in for the girl in accordance with how it was done back then. There was a police investigation, Kerry admitted the slapping, the case was resolved according to the law with no disciplinary consequences. Skate Canada actions are similar to hiding behind a lace curtain, formalism.

 

[skatemd1]

Thanks. Good to have some context and a broader discussion about athlete well being. We should think about what SafeSport's role should be in protecting skaters from emotional abuse. Not sure we have sufficient guardrails in place. Hope USFSA takes a serious look at this.

 

[gsk8]

There was a round table discussion that weighed in a bit on this from Russian skaters' views (Medvedeva, Skoptsova, Averbukh, and Yagudin).

Sources:
DobroFON
Sports.ru (Browser translation below)

Anastasia Skoptsova: Unfortunately, this is not the most pleasant topic. A video appeared on the network of Maya and Alex Shibutani literally swearing, it's even difficult to call it swearing, because Alex scolds Maya like a little girl. She is standing, silent. It is not known who is behind the board - presumably, this is their mother. He shouts at her loudly, bad words. Long video.

Ilya Averbukh: Wait, are they brother and sister?

Alexei Yagudin: Relatives.

Skoptsova: They interrupted their careers for 7 years. This is not Kamila's two years for you.

Evgenia Medvedeva: After the 2018 Olympic season, we did not even skate in the show for seven years.

Skoptsova: Maya managed to overcome cancer. And now they are back together, they say that they are in great shape, but recently they leaked this video. First of all, a question to, forgive me, the bastards who do this. What happens between the coach and the athlete, between partners in training – in no way should end up on social networks.

This is simply unethical. If I had come across such a video, I would never have posted it.

Averbukh: This is a person who latches on to this topic and promotes it. You contradict yourself. So delicate: I wouldn't blow it up, I'd be in jail... Here, some bastard posted it, and now we will start discussing it in all ears.

Skoptsova: Some guy leaked the video, filmed it on the sly.

Medvedeva: This is a live camera. Someone filmed it from the screen and posted it.

Skoptsova: What am I getting at? What happens between the coach and the athlete, between partners – no one should know about it. It's like going into your kitchen and filming what you and your wife are talking about, swearing, who didn't wash the dishes. <... >

Averbukh: I hope there are no pushes there? Well, that's all... This is in any couple. The partner is standing, shouting, the coach is waiting for them to talk themselves out. An ordinary story. Moreover, they are brother and sister.

Yagudin: And in your pair with Irina Lobacheva, who shouted at whom? Or no one at all?

Averbukh: They shouted, of course. And I shouted, and Ira shouted, and the coach shouted at us. And they dispersed. You can make a whole film about it. People from other sides, but not us, threw covers at each other.

Skoptsova: Grischuk threw skates at Platov, no?

Averbukh: So what? This is a closed internal process of this preparation, of these guys. And you don't need to write your advice there, pay attention to this. The training process takes place. People work beyond their limits, and they are in this process of nervous tension, in a situation of stress. I say this for such a philistine story that suddenly begins to rush to the defense of one or the other.

Imagine that this is a planet where it is better not to approach at all, not to enter. I am sure that if we go to the training of the guys, to other rinks, everywhere there is its own atmosphere that you can snatch, catch and then give your advice.

Medvedeva: Okay, you say it's beyond the pale. Is there a line at all?

Averbukh: The verge, of course, is physical violence. <... >

Skoptsova: Going back to Maya and Alex. There is profanity in the video, but no matter how ugly it is in relation to a woman, to her own sister... Kirill Aleshin and I had a difficult off-season before winning the World Junior Championship, and we argued so that this was just a nice conversation.

I screamed, Kirill freaked out. Judges came to us to watch the programs. When the judges come, everyone rolls and smiles. And we had such a fight that Kirill ran out of the ice. I was afraid that he would take the skates now, and I would never see him again. We shouted not only obscenities, I'm afraid to even say.

That's the kind of sport. And there were cases in history, I will not name names, when the partners of their partners with supports deliberately dropped their partners, and with their heads on the board... True, there were such stories.

It seems to me that what is in the couple should remain in the couple. And what is between the coach and the athlete should also remain between them.

 

[bramweld]

If DL and others ensured that the Katsalapov/Sinitsina tapes were destroyed, why are we seeing this? I am not saying this to condone anyone, but it seems rather suspicious, just saying. And the mere fact that neither party acknowledges its presence means we have no clue how difficult this all really is. We should have deleted the same. Persons with the power to address the issue should be in contact with the Shibs; this raw moment isn't for public display.

We cannot get a full picture based on only this. Maia could also be majorly passive-aggressive, and this was Alex trying desperately to get a rise out of her. In his meagre defence, if there could ever be one, he did not hit her or shove her or cause any physical harm.

 

[Mathman]

This is all very depressing. Everyone in the sport seems to be on the same page, maintaining that any kind of abusive behavior is OK as long as no one finds out about it.

 

[gsk8]

This is all very depressing. Everyone in the sport seems to be on the same page, maintaining that any kind of abusive behavior is OK as long as no one finds out about it.

Indeed. While I would never condone someone talking to me that way, you will see it in all sports - especially at high levels. The time, expense, etc. adds to the stress, and when there is more than "one" player involved, your bound to see/hear all kinds of discord, arguments, name-calling, etc.

I agree that this should have never been made public.

 

[surimi]

Skoptsova: That's the kind of sport. And there were cases in history, I will not name names, when the partners of their partners with supports deliberately dropped their partners, and with their heads on the board... True, there were such stories.

This is terrible and IMO downright criminal. Thank you for sharing, @gsk8 , but it is a very depressing read. I hope that there actually are skating partnerships where tempers don't flare this high (meaning the Shibutanis, not the horrendous physical abuse Skoptsova mentions). Where partners treat each other with respect even when things are not working out and nerves are frayed.

 

[Diana Delafield]

Indeed. While I would never condone someone talking to me that way, you will see it in all sports - especially at high levels. The time, expense, etc. adds to the stress, and when there is more than "one" player involved, your bound to see/hear all kinds of discord, arguments, name-calling, etc.

I agree that this should have never been made public.

It's common in the theatre arts as well. Dance particularly, but also acting and singing. Never experienced it myself as a student/performer in any of those fields or in sports, but saw it often. And I know two young people studying to be a fashion designer and a chef who are seeing therapists because of emotional abuse from their instructors.

Can't even say "that's what human nature has become today", because in fact it was worse in the recent past. From what I hear and see, there actually has been some improvement. Not enough yet, but some.

 

[Isk]

This is all very depressing. Everyone in the sport seems to be on the same page, maintaining that any kind of abusive behavior is OK as long as no one finds out about it.

There are cultural differences as well. Eteri Tutberidze said in one interview that she envied skaters whom coaches shouted at because they didn't do it with students they weren't interested in. So, I think in countries where sport is government supported and you don't pay the coach directly to get 20 minutes of their attention, they have to be interested in you for result potential to give attention to you, and then they work for result, because it is a social lift. In Shibs case, if they are sponsored, they are accountable to sponsors. I wonder if they are silent because they are in such a mess right now that public commentary is either moot or third priority. I don't think the damage can be undone by a statement anyway, I think they understand it.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

This is all very depressing. Everyone in the sport seems to be on the same page, maintaining that any kind of abusive behavior is OK as long as no one finds out about it.

It depends what we define as abusive and in what circumstances. I dont think people from the same community who were talking about it in a post above are approving that kind of behavior at all, they are just confirming it is happening. Now, i can talk from my perspective - I can tolerate my best friend yelling at me, if i know he had rough day at work and couldn't sleep properly because he needs to care about his baby at home too. So, as a friend, I can tolerate he acting-out on me. But, do i want to work with him together, or do i want to be his ice dance partner, of course not. I can tolerate you if I want to, as your sister, brother or a friend, but nobody should tolerate your behavior as a skating partner.