The guy with the most quads got beaten. Twice the number of quads, to be exact.
Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry?
- Thread starter gsk8
- Start date
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Yes.
Quad toe: 9.50
Quad Lutz: 11,50
5S: 14.00
Layback spin level 4: 2.70
Step sequence level 4: 3.90
Edge moves (spiral sequence. spread eagle, Ina Bauer): not listed
So far the big jumper has a 35.0 to 6.6 advantage over the would be artiste.
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- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Poor Boyang Jin. Everybody's favorite whipping boy when it comes to big jumps, weak components.
How cool when he came roaring back two years later and beat such artsy types as Shoma Uno and Jason Brown,
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2015
That's your opinion
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Oh! Oh! Oh! Let me answer for Tonto K with my all-time favorite figure skating quote, courtesy Dick Button: "Of course it's my opinion. I wouldn't say it if it weren't."
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- Mar 7, 2015
That's fine but I think I respect better a three time world champion, the one who has been said to bring the balance between artistry and quads over any Tonto
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2018
Maybe not so much limit the number as reduce the relative value as compared to the other elements that should be just as important and highly scored but which are treated as second class. Make being all-round worthwhile. Make the spins, step sequences etc worth just as much if done well. Make those wonderful signature moves that bring programs to life as the currently ubiquitous done-by-everyone cartwheels don't, that are brilliant and challenging and gorgeous to watch valuable.
During the quad race we did have one or two skaters, allrounders who could do it all and do it all artistically and beautifully, so TPTB assumed that quadsters could just do the same, as everying else was 'much easier' after all. Wrong. Then TPTB assumed that people who rather watch jumpfests than figure skating. Wrong again. Quads can be exciting but they are rarely made to look good, the way most skaters (and all of the current crop both male and female, on both the world and the Russian stage and yes even Kugiyama) do them is utilitarian at best and honestly? - efficiently ugly for the rest. And as said, most of the men's programs now have to include so much lead up to each quad (just as the leading quad queen did, remember?) that they leave out ever other skill or make it which is perfunctory especially those that make the programs magicbut don't get the points. Maybe there should be points deducted for long leadups.
The problem isn't so much the jumps vs skating skills/artistry. It is that the ISU have made the rules (and me, I think deliberately because some jumpers were politically favoured) so it is jumps vs skating skills and artistry as a poor third. No one is going to bother with jumps and skating skills and artistry, it's no longer worth it to be great.
During the quad race we did have one or two skaters, allrounders who could do it all and do it all artistically and beautifully, so TPTB assumed that quadsters could just do the same, as everying else was 'much easier' after all. Wrong. Then TPTB assumed that people who rather watch jumpfests than figure skating. Wrong again. Quads can be exciting but they are rarely made to look good, the way most skaters (and all of the current crop both male and female, on both the world and the Russian stage and yes even Kugiyama) do them is utilitarian at best and honestly? - efficiently ugly for the rest. And as said, most of the men's programs now have to include so much lead up to each quad (just as the leading quad queen did, remember?) that they leave out ever other skill or make it which is perfunctory especially those that make the programs magicbut don't get the points. Maybe there should be points deducted for long leadups.
The problem isn't so much the jumps vs skating skills/artistry. It is that the ISU have made the rules (and me, I think deliberately because some jumpers were politically favoured) so it is jumps vs skating skills and artistry as a poor third. No one is going to bother with jumps and skating skills and artistry, it's no longer worth it to be great.
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- Joined
- Apr 23, 2018
They shouldn't. But they do. Look at the current top jumpers, none of them are memorable for anything else except the jumps and the longueurs before the jumps.
Again, I think a better answer than limiting them would be to reduce the point value of both triples and quads to make the other skating skills worth as much. When a skater is all round brilliant, they have a better chance of being artistically satisfying.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
If by"current" you mean right this very minute, yes.
But I can think of one guy in the not so distant past whose overall skating skills blew me away every time AND I didn't dare blink because I might miss his triple Axel.
It would be better to keep the jump values the same as they are, and to raise the point values of everything else. That way, we could set some new World Records real quick.
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- Joined
- Apr 23, 2018
Dick was definitely not a fan of jumping at the expense of artistry and beauty - that quote under my icon is his.
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- Apr 23, 2018
If you are thinking of who I think you are thinking of, the words "out of nowhere" were repeated by commentators so often they became a catchphrase, which contrasts to what was said about the loooooong leadups that vampirically suck the lifeblood out of programs.
They'd would probably have to have a reset of historic records again though (as in 2018) to allow for a completely different set of rules to get one (or two, or ten... though it would also be harder got one skater to grab them all. Whether that's a good or bad thing is another matter)It would be better to keep the jump values the same as they are, and to raise the point values of everything else. That way, we could set some new World Records real quick.
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2019
What you are saying that a step sequence is in an of itself artistic? It's not. It's a technical element. Spin is also a technical element. A good technician will have jumps, steps and spins maxed out and will have high combined TES.Yes.
Quad toe: 9.50
Quad Lutz: 11,50
5S: 14.00
Layback spin level 4: 2.70
Step sequence level 4: 3.90
Edge moves (spiral sequence. spread eagle, Ina Bauer): not listed
So far the big jumper has a 35.0 to 6.6 advantage over the would be artiste.
Poor Boyang Jin. Everybody's favorite whipping boy when it comes to big jumps, weak components.
How cool when he came roaring back two years later and beat such artsy types as Shoma Uno
Yeah, those "artsy types" are usually the first skater to land a quadruple flip in an international competition
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
To say that a skater is artistic does not preclude him doing a triple flip.
I don;t really see what the dispute is about, here. At 2018 Four Continents LP Jin did 4Lz, 4S, 4T+2T and 4T and got 85 in PCS. Uno did 4Lo, 4F, 4T+2T and 4T with 91 PCS. Uno also had two URs and a fall, giving Jin the win, even though Uno was the more "artsy" of the two.
And this proves... ?
I don;t really see what the dispute is about, here. At 2018 Four Continents LP Jin did 4Lz, 4S, 4T+2T and 4T and got 85 in PCS. Uno did 4Lo, 4F, 4T+2T and 4T with 91 PCS. Uno also had two URs and a fall, giving Jin the win, even though Uno was the more "artsy" of the two.
And this proves... ?
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2018
Ilia is not artsy by any definition of the word good or bad. I would rather say that most of the quad 'firsts' in the men have been from allrounders, which goes back to my point (Shoma is to me mainly an allrounder, others may disagree). Not all, but most.
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2021
Honestly, the premise of the poll is kind of off. It treats quads like they automatically kill artistry, which… isn’t really true. We’ve seen tons of skaters prove you can do big jumps and still have gorgeous, fully fleshed-out programs. The issue isn’t “too many quads,” it’s how the scoring system rewards (or doesn’t reward) everything around them.
If people feel like programs are jump-heavy, there are way better levers than putting a hard limit on quads. You can tweak PCS/TES balance, GOEs, step sequence value, whatever. A jump quota is probably the bluntest tool possible.
And “artistry” is subjective anyway. What era are we even trying to get back to? The 6.0 posing days? Early IJS footwork marathons? Everyone has a different idea of what “balanced” looks like.
Plus, limiting quads wouldn’t magically fix anything. Skaters would just repeat more triples. Programs could actually get more same-y, not more artistic.
If anything, the real problem is inconsistent PCS judging. Some panels hand out huge PCS for almost anything. Others don’t. That’s not a quad issue, that’s a judging issue.
A better question would be something like: “Should the scoring system be adjusted so artistry and difficulty are rewarded more evenly?” That gets at the real debate without assuming quads are the villain.
If people feel like programs are jump-heavy, there are way better levers than putting a hard limit on quads. You can tweak PCS/TES balance, GOEs, step sequence value, whatever. A jump quota is probably the bluntest tool possible.
And “artistry” is subjective anyway. What era are we even trying to get back to? The 6.0 posing days? Early IJS footwork marathons? Everyone has a different idea of what “balanced” looks like.
Plus, limiting quads wouldn’t magically fix anything. Skaters would just repeat more triples. Programs could actually get more same-y, not more artistic.
If anything, the real problem is inconsistent PCS judging. Some panels hand out huge PCS for almost anything. Others don’t. That’s not a quad issue, that’s a judging issue.
A better question would be something like: “Should the scoring system be adjusted so artistry and difficulty are rewarded more evenly?” That gets at the real debate without assuming quads are the villain.
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2013
Dude, relax. It's fine. Your spirited support of the skater you idolize is commendable. We know this about you, and we like you anyway.
